PREDICTABLE

[mainstand]

I have heard it said about teams and teh style of play but for the first time I think you can say it about the fans!

Wasn't on last night but I could have very successfully predicted the threads that would be appearing and the content of a lot of the posts and dare I say it the posters. Even worse is that if you compare what is getting said today and last night with that said the last time we drew or lost a home match we should have won then there is little difference.

Think of the following:

How many times had that team played together as a complete unit?
How many first team players have been carrying injuries or illness?
When was the last time we had a full squad training for a full week?

No we are not the finished article et and yes we have afair way to go but for god sake lets stop hitting the panic button every single time we drop points. If we have a full squad back on the training field and are not producing the goods then yes have a go at them then, but until then cut them some slack for god sake.

[pezza70]

The only time I will give up on promotion is when we cant achieve it mathematically

Then I hope that the good fold at the SFA all get truck down with mad cow disease or the bird flu and that no one is crowned champions and the season is cancelled :***:

Seriously we all want the team to be walking away with it in this league, but other then the midden at present, there are 4 or 5 teams that on any given day, they can win 3-0 or loose a 1 -0 shocker

Keep the faith

[Broggy Man]

I have heard it said about teams and teh style of play but for the first time I think you can say it about the fans!

Wasn't on last night but I could have very successfully predicted the threads that would be appearing and the content of a lot of the posts and dare I say it the posters. Even worse is that if you compare what is getting said today and last night with that said the last time we drew or lost a home match we should have won then there is little difference.

Think of the following:

How many times had that team played together as a complete unit?
How many first team players have been carrying injuries or illness?
When was the last time we had a full squad training for a full week?
No we are not the finished article et and yes we have afair way to go but for god sake lets stop hitting the panic button every single time we drop points. If we have a full squad back on the training field and are not producing the goods then yes have a go at them then, but until then cut them some slack for god sake.

I for one aint pressing the panic button but there has to be changes.
The above part i have bolded is simply no more than excuses as far as im concerned Mainstand.
We have known for months that we have problems with our midfield and due to the squad size i assume the OC has been limited to what he can do. I have posted in the january sales thread that we need to move on some players and build for next season it doesnt matter what the rest of this season holds for us.
The bigest problem we have seen this season is the lack of a reserve league i think from a point of view of brining players in the are not match sharp and how can they expect to be playing bouce games here and there.

[templeofsaints]

Think of the following:

How many times had that team played together as a complete unit?
How many first team players have been carrying injuries or illness?
When was the last time we had a full squad training for a full week?

none of this is helping but at the same time why are players being picked when they are unfit / carrying an injury. Coyle for one did little yesterday and given he was confident enough to place Doris on the bench why didn't he just give him a starting jersey. James and Rusty did ok despite having been ill all week - too often it's the "fit" players that are letting us down (e.g. Scotland, Stevenson, Dobbie last weekend etc).

Training is obviously an issue given the lack of movement at set pieces or organisation either at the back or going forward but surely the manager should be able to sort this aspect out - players don't need to be running about the park to be told where they should be standing at a set piece come Saturday.

If we hadn't dominated as much yesterday I might have been willing to accept the training/injury situation as an excuse but the lack of goals was more down to a lack of effort and conviction in the final third more than anything else.

[MUZZ]

god help us if we dont get any freekicks for sheridan to float in because other than that we have no attacking presence IMO. defence is sound, strikers are sound but like others have said we have no attack minded midfielders to create

[David]

I'm going to commit forum suicide and admit to being at Dens Park yesterday, although it was on a work assignment.

If you think Saints fans can moan, you really ought to sit behind some Dundee supporters - for a large part of the game yesterday, they were cheering every Brechin attack, along the lines of "come on son, get that **** Kernaghan sacked" and so on. The press guys were subjected to a constant torrent of abuse, with a small section of fans offering to write the 'real story' for us, for "80 quid each".

There was even booing from the home ends when Lynch stepped up to take the winning penalty. Frightening.

Saints fans are pretty supportive by comparison. Whatever the numbers were yesterday (and Dens wasn't an awful lot better, even with a good local travelling support) you wouldn't expect the hard core at McDiarmid to cheer the opposition!

[imported_Jamie_Beatson]

I'll be honest, we were utterly gash yesterday, and the lack of any coherent play by our midfield is frightening. Players like McCann and Sheerin are simply not good enough for us. We have no width whatsoever - Stevenson does not too bad down the right but always fades out of the game.

I think we should start taking a chance with some of the young boys - Doris looked lively when he came on today, and having watched some U-19's this season i think its worth a chance! They certainly play better passing football than the first team!

[gc7969]

Mainstand

Why are the comments so predictable?

Is it anything to do with the fact that the team for many years now has not played in what could remotely be called a "professional" manner. That the lack of any player being willing to pass the ball to another Saints player in a manner which opens the opponents up, the inablility to support each other by moving off the ball, the total lack of any programmed set pieces.

Before you come to the conclusion I expected Saints to walk the league undefeated, I never thought that. I did not think we would be promoted as the players brought in, IMHO, were poor. The players we released Baxter, Fraser, Forsyth being better than Mensing, James, Stanic.

The one consistent has been the backroom staff. For Coyle to say that Weir and Henderson are able helpers, beggars belief. We need changes there which will hopefully improve the cohesion of the team.

The lack of reserve team football has not helped but neither has the lack of opportunities for the younger players who have the desire, the pace and I believe the ability to improve the team. Maybe Tommy Campbell should be taking the first team?

It must be having an adverse effect on those like McManus, Dyer, Moon. What confidence does seeing, week in, week out poor play from players and never getting a chance bring? Players who are unfit, mentally and physically, getting games and you being left out.

I asked the question about the young players on the official site from Coyle and his reply did not inspire any hope that he would go beyond the journeyman pro and take a risk which is what we need to do.

So yes, the comments are predictable but so are the causes and the solutions.

[gc7969]

Radford,

Take off your tinted specs. Every fan has the rght to an opinion. Many on here want Saints to be successful but the common thread is the lack of the players committment, pace and ability. We can disagree on how and who should be playing.

It is my opinion, that Baxter's enthusiasm, pace and the ability he showed when he first came into the team are far superior to Mensing. Coyle said Baxter lacked confidence, something that came from the coaching staff. Forsyth was another who went backwards with our coaches instead of becoming another Davidson which is what we thought in the east stand when he first appeared. Fraser appeared to have the ability, to play football at central defence but never got the chance.

Yes they are playing in lower leagues but so should a lot of Coyle's signings. Look at the teams which are improving and they are using their younger players and developing them. If we were promoted how many of the journeymen pros could actually sustain us there? How many were first team players at their previous clubs? Yes, Main, Biscuits were not first team players when they arrived BUT they were at an age to improve not in their declining years.

[Chansey]

i agree with gc that baxter would still give something to the team, he is playing with a good club this season in cowden, and i have been very impressed with them this season. However i feel that with the likes of stanic, james etc, who were performing well at the start of the season we should be right up the with Midden. The only conclusion i can come up with is that confidence is a factor.

Having seen the team perform under standard i'm sure OC will have drawn his own conclusions, i will look to rectify these. If it is confidence which is causing this, i think a change in coaching staff may be needed, as stated by other posters also.

[Ray Blair]

Every fan does,of course,have a right to an opinion.
We do after all pay a lot of money to follow our team.
It is true though that certain people are UP after good
but equally DOWN after indifferant performances.

Its only a few weeks since some innnocent posted that
we would win ALL our games untill we meet St Mirren.

That was after the great Hamilton game.

The people who sound like the world has ended after a bad
result or two discourage some of us from using the forum.

It has been said before but it is imporatnt to keep
supporting the team!
I missed the game yeaterday but believe the team were booed off!!!

How bad is that.we are still in with a chance of success and a wee
run noff results and we will be up there again.

Cmon guys and gals get behind the club.

[Chansey]

after hearing that the team was booed off. do these people want OC gone? Surley not! i find it impossible to think people can think getting rid of him can benefit the club. i think the guy has potential as a manager and eventually it will shine through over time! C'mon guys and gals keep behind the team, support will lift the lads!!

N.B. OC's the man for the job!!

[blueheaven]

after hearing that the team was booed off. do these people want OC gone? Surley not! i find it impossible to think people can think getting rid of him can benefit the club. i think the guy has potential as a manager and eventually it will shine through over time! C'mon guys and gals keep behind the team, support will lift the lads!!

It seems to be just part of being a Saints fan these days that you'll hear the team getting booed off the pitch whenever we do anything other than hammer the opposition. It appears to be only the very young fans that do it - which is perhaps caused by the fact that they're a generation of supporter who aren't used to seeing Saints do poorly and misguidedly think we should win every week. Frankly, if they think that then they're supporting the wrong club. What I find perplexing is that I've never seen any of them come on here and attempt to justify the booing. There are quite a significant number of them that do it, so I'd be willing to bet that at least some of them will be forum readers/users - but there's a deafening silence whenever anyone asks them to attempt to explain themselves on the forum. Perhaps they should try exercising that silence at full-time in some of our matches.

I do agree with Radford though that it's highly doubtful any of the players we released during the summer would be doing any better. Every single one of them has stepped down the divisions since leaving Saints, and remember these are the same guys who almost landed us in relegation trouble last season (or, in some cases, couldn't even get into the team that almost landed us in relegation trouble last season!). There seems to be a big myth surrounding Ross Forsyth in particular - but Forsyth never did anything in a Saints jersey. Baxter had lots of raw enthusiasm but how talented he was is another matter entirely, and Fraser looked useful briefly but never played enough first-team games for people to claim he's a real loss. Remember, it's not unusual for young players to look fantastic in their first few games. Put it down to adrenalin. But how many Saints youngsters have actually made a sustained impression? Very few. Perhaps Coyle isn't playing many of our current youngsters because he sees them in training every day and just doesn't think they're ready for it.

[Dev]

It seems to be just part of being a Saints fan these days that you'll hear the team getting booed off the pitch whenever we do anything other than hammer the opposition. It appears to be only the very young fans that do it - which is perhaps caused by the fact that they're a generation of supporter who aren't used to seeing Saints do poorly and misguidedly think we should win every week. Frankly, if they think that then they're supporting the wrong club. What I find perplexing is that I've never seen any of them come on here and attempt to justify the booing. There are quite a significant number of them that do it, so I'd be willing to bet that at least some of them will be forum readers/users - but there's a deafening silence whenever anyone asks them to attempt to explain themselves on the forum. Perhaps they should try exercising that silence at full-time in some of our matches.

I disagree. I don't think it is just the young fans at all. At half-time yesterday I switched ends from the Mafia end to the Ormond end and the amount of moaning that takes place down there is astounding. I didn't hear a positive word from anyone. One guy in particular kept berating Stanic every time he got the ball, despite the fact that he was probably our best player and he barely wasted a pass all afternoon. I don't think the booing was just by young fans - sadly it goes right through our entire support.

I'm 37.

[Mr Spoons]

I'm not sure what some people want us to do after a game like saturday... appluad the players off the park? Stay in the East stand and sing "One man went to mow" or various permutations on the Doh a Deer theme?

I've never booed a Saints player during a game and have always tried to give encouragement up until the final whistle. Yesterday I scooted out of the game at the sound of the final whistle without booing, but not very happy with what I'd seen - which was, lets remember, a complete inabality to break down a team of part time players who came to pack the defence.

Surely we can't be happy with that. Surely we can expect more from our team, our manager and our club. Surely we can allow people who pay

[Mr Spoons]

oops lost the last bit. will try to repost!

[Mr Spoons]

Last bit along the lines of... So please those of you who have had a go at the people who have booed or posted critical comments, realise that praise means nothing without the right to be critical when required and yesterday was just not good enough. Must do better. Simple as that, and anyone who suggests otherwise is surely prepared to accept mediocrity. Having cheered this team on to 3rd place in the premier, I'm reluctant to accept th

[Cagey]

When I saw the thread title I thought you were talking about the team because they are TOO predictable.The fans have every right to show there indignation at a team who are just not doing it. As for the team not playing together enough, there has been no wholesale changes in the team in the last few games & if Clyde can throw a team together in 2 weeks & be level with us , what does that say for a team that on paper is probably the best & most experianced in the league.

McPherson summed it up on Scotsport when he said he was proud of his guys enthusiasm & commitment. The 2 things missing in our team who think they are too good for this league.

[Broggy Man]

On the booing point. I dont but after a game i think it is an acceptable way to show displeasure at what has just been viewed, after all we pay the wages in some respect so we are entittled to make our feelings heard.
I prefer to just scuttle away and be completely pissed off

[dave mc]

Never have nor ever will,boo Saints or Scotland,the result is enough to make me pissed off,booing doesn't change that!BH ,must take umbrage with you,regarding players that have left,there is no doubt that David Cowan is a better full back than we have just now, and OC payed him off,(inside info), I think Baxter would have been a better bet,than what we're playing at right back just now,because of his energy to get up and down the park.

[fifefan]

IMHO Baxter would have done better in our defence given the chance.

Why isn't Andy Jackson being recalled. He was sent on loan to get experience of playing first team football. Surely now that we are desperate, and he has had some first team experience with cowdenbeath, he could have been useful, instead of us injuring Milne and OC further by playing them.

[chopper]

IMHO Baxter would have done better in our defence given the chance.

Why isn't Andy Jackson being recalled. He was sent on loan to get experience of playing first team football. Surely now that we are desperate, and he has had some first team experience with cowdenbeath, he could have been useful, instead of us injuring Milne and OC further by playing them.

Jackson cannot be recalled as it requires dispensation for a player to move outwith the transfer window. He will be available for Dundee at hjome on January 2, 2006 (9 years and 1 day since 7-2 8) ).

As for Baxter - he obviously didn't show enough compared to Mensing and Anderson to warrant the contract so he was shifted on, that is what the manager is paid to do and why we sit in the stands every week!!!

On the booing point, it is becoming commonplace throughout the whole of football in Britain that if your team doesn't win (unless it's a game where you are a racing certainty to lose ie Celtic, Hearts, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Yoo), then the fans boo. I don't know why as again I thought we didn't do too badly on Saturday except get the ball in the back of the net - the exact same problem we have had for a number of weeks now.

Very similar to the last season in the Stark era for me.

[blueheaven]

BH ,must take umbrage with you,regarding players that have left,there is no doubt that David Cowan is a better full back than we have just now, and OC payed him off,(inside info), I think Baxter would have been a better bet,than what we're playing at right back just now,because of his energy to get up and down the park.

Jeez, I forgot all about Cowan! Wasn't he only on a short-term contract that was due to expire at the end of last season anyway? If so, he wouldn't have been paid off much - more a case of him just not being offered a new one, I would have thought.

Cowan was alright but nothing special. I certainly can't remember him setting the heather alight. And I maintain that, by and large, the players Coyle has brought in are better than the ones he released. In bringing in Mensing we got ourselves a versatile player who was an automatic starter with a team who consistently finished above us in the league. Now, people might say that he hasn't captured that form in a Saints jersey so far, but that's a totally different argument.

Coyle's brought in Janczyk, Sheridan, Stanic, Milne, Dobbie, Mensing, Scotland, Paterson, Paston and Henry.

He's punted Cowan, Maxwell, Baxter, Webb, Forsyth, Fotheringham, Hay, Bernard, Sloan, Bagan.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the top row is a better list of players than the bottom one.

[gc7969]

They may be a better "list" but they are not performing any "better."

I come back to my opinion, nothing has or will change until the backroom is sorted out. Saints do not develope or improve their players. Until we do that we are an average side in a poor quality league.

On Satuday only Cuthbert came from our youth set up. The rest were journeymen pros. Teams like M'boro, Southampton even Hibs and Motherwell have produced exciting, talented players from their youth academies. Saints had a head start but something goes wrong each time the youths appear at the fringe of the first team.

We need the youthful, flair and pace to help Sheridan in midfield like Dasovic, O'Neill and Scott helped Kane. We have not had box to box players like O'Neill and Scott and the guile of Kane since. We have become so predictable, one set piece, one route, no width.

[mainstand]

They may be a better "list" but they are not performing any "better."

I come back to my opinion, nothing has or will change until the backroom is sorted out. Saints do not develope or improve their players. Until we do that we are an average side in a poor quality league.

On Satuday only Cuthbert came from our youth set up. The rest were journeymen pros. Teams like M'boro, Southampton even Hibs and Motherwell have produced exciting, talented players from their youth academies. Saints had a head start but something goes wrong each time the youths appear at the fringe of the first team.

We need the youthful, flair and pace to help Sheridan in midfield like Dasovic, O'Neill and Scott helped Kane. We have not had box to box players like O'Neill and Scott and the guile of Kane since. We have become so predictable, one set piece, one route, no width.


lets get real here the 4 teams you mention are in teh SPL or Premiership and can afford a helluva lot more than Saints. the money these Clubs can invest is significantly more than us and teh standard of youth player they attract is greater than us.

You mention journeymen pros, and then mention Kane, Dasovic etc, these guys could well fall into the journeymen category.

[dunningsaint]

We need the youthful, flair and pace to help Sheridan in midfield like Dasovic, O'Neill and Scott helped Kane. We have not had box to box players like O'Neill and Scott and the guile of Kane since. We have become so predictable, one set piece, one route, no width.

I was a Dasovic fan, but youthful, flair and pace were not words I'd have used to describe him.

To me Saturday's poor performance was down to the wrong team selection. OC said before the game that Stranraer would sit in and defend. Afterwards he said we did not have enough width. Correct on both counts, bit you won't get width with a 4-3-3 formation. OC should have stuck to 4-4-2 and pushed Stevenson and Sheerin wide.

[Broon]

Regarding youth players, Saints used to throw them in early (Griffin captain at 17-18?). We used to adopt the attitude that if your good enough, your old enough. Not anymore.

We are a mid-table first division team these days and the standard of opposition is terrible - the youngters would be fine in the team IMHO. The problem is - we wont give them a chance. I fully believe we would reap the benefits of giving McManus and co a run of games instead of the occasional 5 mins. This will help them adapt to the physical nature of the division. This season is a bogey in my opinion - as good a chance as any to blood a few youngsters for next season.

[templeofsaints]

Regarding youth players, Saints used to throw them in early (Griffin captain at 17-18?). We used to adopt the attitude that if your good enough, your old enough. Not anymore.

We are a mid-table first division team these days and the standard of opposition is terrible - the youngters would be fine in the team IMHO. The problem is - we wont give them a chance. I fully believe we would reap the benefits of giving McManus and co a run of games instead of the occasional 5 mins. This will help them adapt to the physical nature of the division. This season is a bogey in my opinion - as good a chance as any to blood a few youngsters for next season.

I'd agree with that - remember how nervous we were at the start of the year when the likes of McManus and Dyer were thrown into the first team but both more than did themselves proud. There is the argument of not putting too much pressure on the youngsters but I think we're in danger of treating them with kid gloves too much - they need the first team experience and games against the likes of Stranraer, Brechin etc (especially given our injury worries) are the ideal circumstances to give them a start.