Forum Move

[David]

To let you know, the forum will be moving to a new server on Sunday. You shouldn't notice any down time but that's when it will happen.

In addition, I will be giving up as 'site admin' and bowing out of the forum altogether for personal reasons. I'll be funding the forum for three months (January-March) but after that, it's not my problem...

As someone who works for the club, I should probably never have volunteered to take the forum on, but I'm unable to defend a lot of the stuff being said on here - so I need to totally get away from it.

If anyone who is technically savvy and would be able to host the site (ie. if you have hosting somewhere or a server or whatever), would like to come forward and take it on permanently, then you're more than welcome. PM me or email david.low@electricskeleton.net for more details.

David

[dave mc]

Sorry to hear you feel obliged to stand down,but admire you standing by your principles,as for some of the posts, couldn't agree more!!Hope it's not the end but understand your reasoning, and thanks for your contribution,as an exiled Saint in Fife,this is my main source of news and have enjoyed most of "the banter"

Dave xx

[True Saintee]

xx

Its nice to see a man in touch with his femanine side :wink:

[blueheaven]

I'd like to think that, at the very least, this will perhaps give some people reason to think a little more carefully before posting in the future. You all know that quite a bit of work has gone into establishing this forum so that everyone could carry on having a place to discuss Saints after I decided to close my own forum, but at the moment it's my opinion that the system is being abused (not necessarily intentionally in all cases, I should add), and I think that a few recent posts over the last week or so have put the future of this whole site in genuine jeopardy.

I'd like to thank Dave for the work he put in - at very short notice - in creating this forum after I closed the previous one. I really hope that if people appreciate it, and want the site to continue in the future, everyone will start having a bit of consideration about the harm they might be doing to others when they post.

[David]

Thanks aren't really due for me, they'd be due to BH (Gary) for keeping the forum going in the last three or so years...!

[Phil]

Sorry to hear this :x
Hope something is worked out.

[pezza70]

Thanks to everyone who has ran this site and the previous site

now im going to have to actually do work at work from now on :(

[Shaggy Jenkins]

This is a bit of a surprise, And I am a bit confused!

I am yet to see any comments on the forum that are an abuse of the system or are particuarly bad or damaging to either character or site. If anything was posted like that then the mods should del it, the fact that the mods have seen little need to del the vast majority of posts says to me the site is running well.

I am guessing this relates to maybe the Geoff Brown thread but that is maybe just a paranoid guess. If it is then pretty poor show, it is only peoples views.

Genuinly puzzled of Perth

[Real Madrid]

PRAVDA

I know you cannot say who at the club reads this but this worries me if someone at the club is concerned about some of the posts on here and is giving Dave grief about it.

The next thing they will be removing season tickets from those who post on here :roll: Watch what you post as big brother (Or the Board) are watching you ! :D

[Watty]

Who, if anyone, is going to step to the plate and take over??

[Shaggy Jenkins]

Right, allow me to clarify quickly. There have been many things on the forum this week alone which have caused trouble/offence, and I've had to mop up after the trouble each time.

The forum is wide open, people can post what they like within reason - but if the forum's being used to attack the club, say things about the playing/coaching staff, directors, management, etc, or to spread some wild rumours that have been doing the rounds, then I'd rather not be held responsible for it - for a good reason.

It's known at the club that I've been looking after the forum and I don't want it to cause any problems with my job as programme editor, that's why I want/need to hand it on.

Cool less confused now and I understand, you gotta do whats best for you, and sympathise that you have ben put into that position.

I do however find it a little sad that the Club are not big enough to take the flak. I also feel that you should not be held or indeed feel responsible for things that are being said.

Here is a place for discussing all things Saints, sometimes that is not going to be all positive or indeed correct but that is what football and supporters thrive on, it should be water off a ducks back to those at the club. They are in a position of authority in a business that people have input and an opinion on, and as such should be prepared to take the rough stuff, rightly or wrongly, it comes ith the job I am afraid. Some things are posted in the heat of the moment but as we have seen lots of things have been said inside the club in the heat of the moment recently.

I would draw a parallel to our politicians, they take flack from people every day. People on internet sites will call Bush a tosser for going to war, and indeed have wild conspiracy theories as to why the did it. others will have the opposed view. You do not se them up in arms about what some crackpot un informed geek at a keyboard has to say. These issues are a hell of allot more important than 'Is Jim Weir a bad coach, does he give the youths a hard time' or ' is Geoff a tight fisted old codger' or 'Why is OC signing that croc' 'will such and such be let go'. In reality nothing has been said that will affect their jobs (i.e. libellous (SP)), each persons boss will know the real story and if they are happy then, what should that person care? I am sure that folk think I do a bad job at times at work but I dont care as long as the person that pays my wage is happy. Where I am lucky is no one is particularly passionate or has an interest in my job.

If they are worried about bad press, they need to remember that word of mouth is a hell of allot more powerful that what is written on a site that a few hundred folk read. Anything written here will be nothing that is not already spreading like wild fire though the county anyway.

Bottom line you have to take the good with the bad and all the crap that goes with it, the world runs on gossip. You just got to got a thick skin stand up and get on with it

[Shaggy Jenkins]

PRAVDA

I know you cannot say who at the club reads this but this worries me if someone at the club is concerned about some of the posts on here and is giving Dave grief about it.

The next thing they will be removing season tickets from those who post on here :roll: Watch what you post as big brother (Or the Board) are watching you ! :D

At times it seems more like they will be taking a swim in the Tay wearing concrete flippers............and we all know they are not short of horses heads.......

[Tranmere Saintee]

Like everyone I am very sorry to hear of your decision David & respect it with you working for the club by producing the programme and know the sort of grieff certain people at the club will give you for postings they do not agree with. (Shit, this is difficult to put in words without causing yet more grieff and uspestting people, which is not the intention because we seem to be able to do that with ease :roll: ).

As SJ has said, there is very little posted on here that is as bad as the gossip and unfounded speculation you will hear flying round Perth, or is published in the Sun/Record/Daily Star/ Express/Guardian etc everyday to do with football, politics or other people in the public eye. It may not be nice, but it is something that has to be learned to be dealt with.

I just hope that you will re-surrect yourself under a different guise and keep on posting, assuming we can find somebody to keep the site going.

[David]

Allow me to have one last post on this before I give up. I'm not getting out because of any undue grief from the club, so please give up on the 'Pravda' routine and any conspiracy theories. Remember part of my job is to interview players and staff, and the first topic of conversation will always be "what's your forum like, saying I'm a dud?" or something along those lines. Just makes life a bit more difficult!

Maybe a bit naive to expect that this wouldn't happen.

There have already been some good offers regarding the forum, by the way - both financial and technical - so I wouldn't worry on that score. At the very last resort, there are thousands of sites offering free forums of some kind.

[pezza70]

I second bring back the mailing list

saintees@yahoogroups.com for those who have never heard of it

of course that is if the forum doesnt kick on after March

[stevensan]

Oooohh... i'm liking this!

Think i'll jump on the Bring back the mailing list bandwagon too. never liked these forum things anyway..... (although I will add many thanks to blueheaven and david as this is the sole source of Saintees news here in china with the temple being barred by the chinese authorities! )

[Shaggy Jenkins]

Na never liked the mailing list myself. This format is much better

[Mr_Plow]

I prefer the forum to ye olde mailing list.

Like David said, you can get setup free forums online.

http://www.proboards.com/ have good forum setups and don't require coding experience to run, however I don't know if would allow you to have loads of users or how it would perform if busy.

[Nick]

I prefer the forum to ye olde mailing list.

Like David said, you can get setup free forums online.

http://www.proboards.com/ have good forum setups and don't require coding experience to run, however I don't know if would allow you to have loads of users or how it would perform if busy.

I was an admin for proboards and it was easy to run, but not sure how it would cope with all the users.

[Watty]

Mailing Lists are dead, long live the forum!!!

[Real Madrid]

Allow me to have one last post on this before I give up. I'm not getting out because of any undue grief from the club, so please give up on the 'Pravda' routine and any conspiracy theories. Remember part of my job is to interview players and staff, and the first topic of conversation will always be "what's your forum like, saying I'm a dud?" or something along those lines. Just makes life a bit more difficult!

Maybe a bit naive to expect that this wouldn't happen.

There have already been some good offers regarding the forum, by the way - both financial and technical - so I wouldn't worry on that score. At the very last resort, there are thousands of sites offering free forums of some kind.

Have you ever heard of Devils advocate . I am sure we are not at the Pravda stage. Yet :***:

Are the players that concerned as to what we think. I really dont think this does any harm and if any player was being rubbished on here unfairly I would hope the moderators would step in

Thanks for all you have done Dave and lets hope the forum keeps going. As if we just have the official site then we do have Pravda

[David]

I was an admin for proboards and it was easy to run, but not sure how it would cope with all the users.
It ought to cope fine, a system like proboards is set up to manage much larger traffic than this site gets.

However there have been some very good offers behind the scenes this week (thanks to everyone who wrote, by the way) and I think it very unlikely that the forum will discontinue at this stage. Might end up on a different site or something, but it will almost certainly carry on.

[Cagey]

Hope you log on to the new forum under another name so that the Saints players that get upset by a wee bit criticism don`t know it is you as your input is usually top class . Not like us guys that like to stir things up a bit.

[Dooj]

I am a bit concerned that the general tone of this topic seems to be along the lines of suggesting that the club/players should just 'get on with it' and 'whats the problem? no harm is being done'. I think that posters need to be aware of the implications of posting things on a public forum that is subject to the same kind of legal considerations as any newspaper. Although it may feel like it at times, discussing things on this forum is emphatically not the same as discussing things down the pub or on the terraces. Despite what some posters have said, there are quite a few comments that I have seen made about players that, whether true or not, I don't think should be posted publically. I am thinking here about comments about players who like a drink and who are well-known womanisers. Such comments are rarely supported with any evidence and could be very damaging, both personally and professionally to players. Of course, players and the club should be prepared to take criticism but I think that criticism should relate to football and the performance of players on the pitch or in training.

I, like everyone else, am extremely grateful to all those who have adminstered/moderated this site and BH - the least we could do to show our gratitude is not put them in difficult situations by making them have to even think about deleting posts or worry about the threat of legal action (the most likely outcome being the closure of the site and none of us want that).

[Saintkev]

Na never liked the mailing list myself. This format is much better

Yup, mailing list menat missing some mails, coming in in different orders, not abble to check back so easy. Prefer the forum.

[Saintkev]

Can I ask a serious question?.. not looking for opinions here, just fact...

The internet has a reputation for being a bastion of free-speech, which can be considered a good thing or a bad thing, but a place for it nethertheless... how much is this true? I see the argument that it can affect players morale etc.

What could actually be done if I came on here and said Player X was out drinking all Friday night and got in a fight outside the dancing for trying to grope some random lassie (for example)?

Or Player Y is getting 800 quid a week but wants away?

Or Chairman Z has been offered 2 million for the club but has turned it down?

etc etc.

What I'm kind of getting at is, we are an unofficial site, so how much say should/could the club have on what goes on here? I'm purely wondering and am in no way saying they have put pressure on Dave or anything like that, just trying to clarify this.

[chopper]

What I'm kind of getting at is, we are an unofficial site, so how much say should/could the club have on what goes on here? I'm purely wondering and am in no way saying they have put pressure on Dave or anything like that, just trying to clarify this.

The point that we are an unofficial site should result in the club having no bearing on what is said, provided that no official from the club posts any news etc on here - I believed that was what the old Saints official site forum would have been for, before it was shut down (I don't know as I never used that forum).

As for the individual situation - if this is something you know and could back up I wouldn't think it would be a problem. Obviously slanderous comments would have the possibility of being legally brought into question should the person involved be named and find it offensive or damaging. To use the example of being out drinking the night before a game and was involved in a fight - this would/should be OK IMO as there would be evidence to back this up (other people in the establishment, the establishment's own security systems etc).

[Saintkev]

Okay Chops...

Forum member 'saintX' claims that player Y is a rapist, he saw him do it etc. Turns out it is bull... how does Player Y (who is obviously upset and it's affected his form, been in papers etc.) go about bringing saintX to justice for his slanderous comments? Especially as no-one knows who saintX is and it was typed on a PC in a net cafe?

[blueheaven]

Forum member 'saintX' claims that player Y is a rapist, he saw him do it etc. Turns out it is bull... how does Player Y (who is obviously upset and it's affected his form, been in papers etc.) go about bringing saintX to justice for his slanderous comments? Especially as no-one knows who saintX is and it was typed on a PC in a net cafe?

If someone decided to take legal action over a comment made on an Internet forum, it would most likely be the owner/editor/admin of the site that would bear the brunt of the action, rather than the person who made the comment. It's the same as when newspapers get sued, I think it's generally the editor who gets in trouble, even if he/she didn't actually write the piece in question. I'm obviously no legal expert, but I have studied a bit of media law and I'm pretty sure that's how it works (although if anyone knows better, feel free to correct me!).

[chopper]

Okay Chops...

Forum member 'saintX' claims that player Y is a rapist, he saw him do it etc. Turns out it is bull... how does Player Y (who is obviously upset and it's affected his form, been in papers etc.) go about bringing saintX to justice for his slanderous comments? Especially as no-one knows who saintX is and it was typed on a PC in a net cafe?

No idea, I only put forward my reply as a logical way of thinking about it. As for the ins and outs, as BH says, the owner/s would bear the brunt, unless proof could be obtained as to who 'saintX' was.

[Dooj]

Okay Chops...

Forum member 'saintX' claims that player Y is a rapist, he saw him do it etc. Turns out it is bull... how does Player Y (who is obviously upset and it's affected his form, been in papers etc.) go about bringing saintX to justice for his slanderous comments? Especially as no-one knows who saintX is and it was typed on a PC in a net cafe?

No idea, I only put forward my reply as a logical way of thinking about it. As for the ins and outs, as BH says, the owner/s would bear the brunt, unless proof could be obtained as to who 'saintX' was.

I think that publishers are held jointly reponsible even if you know who the original author is.

[mapleleaf]

I don't think the legalities here are very meaningful. Particularly under Scottish laws relating to libel.

I take David's points to mean that there is a perceived conflict of interest between the way he earns his living and in what is essentially a recreational activity. Therefore, in my opinion, he is correct to withdraw. Perception is reality, so while David is in no way responsible for what some one may post about player X, the perceived reality is that David, because of his connection to the forum, somehow supports or endorses that opinion.

I'm just happy that David has been around to shepherd the site through another evolution and I'm sure that the site will keep evolving.

Cheers, David. Keep posting!

Smudge 8)

[Tranmere Saintee]

Like most, not sure on the legality of it all, but surely the reason why an editor is held responsible is because he has the final say as to what is printed in his paper, while on an open forum the site owner/moderators can only act after the event.

[Broggy Man]

If someone decided to take legal action over a comment made on an Internet forum, it would most likely be the owner/editor/admin of the site that would bear the brunt of the action, rather than the person who made the comment. It's the same as when newspapers get sued, I think it's generally the editor who gets in trouble, even if he/she didn't actually write the piece in question. I'm obviously no legal expert, but I have studied a bit of media law and I'm pretty sure that's how it works (although if anyone knows better, feel free to correct me!).

Im not really sure as civil law is not my thing but i think the way it works is the owner /publisher/Admin/Editor would firstly be held to endorse the comment however i believe at least in Scots law there is a defence to the charge of libel that it wasnt written nor endorsed by the afore mentioned which would lead to a reasonable as by the wedensbury test investigation in an attempt to trace the culprit but as far as i recal as long as steps are take to prevent or trace the culprit the person who posts the comment would be the guilty party hence the reason we have admin and mod and these powers shoild not be taken lightly?

[Kevin]

I think this comes under Defamation and, as such, the defamed party would take the owner of the Forum to Court first and it would be up to them to prove that they were not responsible for the posting however, they would also be required to provide the name and contact details of the person who made the posting. Failure to do so would result in a contempt and jail, followed by a compensation award made against them. If the person making the posting is given up to the court, that person will be required to make a defence against the defamatory remark and should expect to have a compensation claim lodged against them.

All in all it is not a pretty outlook and one that should make people who post defamatory remarks realsie what their actions could result in.

[Saintkev]

I think this comes under Defamation and, as such, the defamed party would take the owner of the Forum to Court first and it would be up to them to prove that they were not responsible for the posting however, they would also be required to provide the name and contact details of the person who made the posting. Failure to do so would result in a contempt and jail, followed by a compensation award made against them. If the person making the posting is given up to the court, that person will be required to make a defence against the defamatory remark and should expect to have a compensation claim lodged against them.

All in all it is not a pretty outlook and one that should make people who post defamatory remarks realsie what their actions could result in.

I'm not condoning this, but if I signed up for a rival teams board and said Player X did this, that and the other... the owner of the site is liable to be screwed as they have no idea who I am?! That's not right surely?!! It would be easy to get other football team sites into bother!

[David]

I'm not condoning this, but if I signed up for a rival teams board and said Player X did this, that and the other... the owner of the site is liable to be screwed as they have no idea who I am?! That's not right surely?!! It would be easy to get other football team sites into bother!
In general it never gets as far as legal action, but such things happen every day. Forum owners generally get the grace to remove the offending text within a certain period of time.

The BBC probably have one of the busiest sets of forums in the UK and for those reasons, they have people physically sitting all day moderating posts - Scottish football forums being one example, I know one of the moderators on there.

A good recent example was a football forum where someone posted codes to watch Setanta games for free, and Setanta went for the board owners rather than the people who posted them.

[saint in exile]

Completely understand your reasons for giving up the forum.Would just like to say thanks for all your time and commitment,it`s just a pity those lazy barstewards on the park can`t ...........

[Broggy Man]

I think this comes under Defamation and, as such, the defamed party would take the owner of the Forum to Court first and it would be up to them to prove that they were not responsible for the posting however, they would also be required to provide the name and contact details of the person who made the posting. Failure to do so would result in a contempt and jail, followed by a compensation award made against them. If the person making the posting is given up to the court, that person will be required to make a defence against the defamatory remark and should expect to have a compensation claim lodged against them.

All in all it is not a pretty outlook and one that should make people who post defamatory remarks realsie what their actions could result in.

I'm not condoning this, but if I signed up for a rival teams board and said Player X did this, that and the other... the owner of the site is liable to be screwed as they have no idea who I am?! That's not right surely?!! It would be easy to get other football team sites into bother!
Correct Saintkev Kevin has lost the plot from defamation of character to jail in one foul swoop. Contempt is willfull no one can be in contept if they dont know who the guilty party is. failure to obtemper on order of court jeez get real. I assume the IP address is logged along with an email address this is about the only static information available as i suppose you could register as mickey mouse as long as u had a valid email address for the validation key. However the IP address is more promising as these are allocated to isp's but if as Saintkev suggested an internet cafe was used then there is very little that could be done i would imagine and the thought of an Admin of the site being firstly held in contempt then having a comp order made against the is basicaly ludicrous.

[Kevin]

I give up. Can understand David's frustration now!

[Saintkev]

I give up. Can understand David's frustration now!

Eh? If this is aimed at me, I'm just trying to get my head around this all and helping someone who may wish to take the site over, too.

[Broggy Man]

I give up. Can understand David's frustration now!
Chin up Kevin you are my data protection man a subject i know sod all about you probably dont know it but i used your coaching in an old thread about problems on the forum and i have now managed to register on the new data protection forms and i didnt have to pay you a consultancy fee :***: :***: But if i ever meet you i will by you a pint in a non smoking pub :roll: :***: Contempt of Court Act 1981 is where i reference from it is a UK wide full of legal drivel but i think the basis in Scotland is a willfull disregard of an order of court. sorry about the tone in the earlier post it was not intended :oops:

[Kevin]

I give up. Can understand David's frustration now!

Eh? If this is aimed at me, I'm just trying to get my head around this all and helping someone who may wish to take the site over, too.

No Kev, just an old battle with Broggy Man :***:

[templeofsaints]

I second bring back the mailing list

saintees@yahoogroups.com for those who have never heard of it

of course that is if the forum doesnt kick on after March
Has the list disappeared, Perry? I just went to check the archives and there's no sign of it! :shock:

Still there - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saintees/messages

[pezza70]

yeah I just saw it

the list rules is probably the most popular posting at present