Saints Scouting...?

[Finners]

This post may unaffect some of you because it appeals more to younger supporters but I am quite disappointed with the lack of St Johnstone scouts at local matches scouting for talent. I play for a U17's team and i never hear of Saints scouts at games as i have talked to other players in my league, the only scouts are celtic, rangers or dundee.......

There are a few players i know that should get at least trials for Saints. Seems like players are falling through the net so to speak...

[pezza70]

why not get the president or the manager of your youth club, to approach saints and invite one of their scouts to attend a game or even arrange a bounce match for their benefit.

It cant hurt

[Gaffer]

I wasn't aware that scouts were meant to announce theirself at matches.

Maybe they should start wearing ID badges stating who they are scouting for. :roll:
.

[Finners]

hehehe yeah i mean that is always an option but i just dont think it is necessary .....the fact that their are more dundee scouts than saints scouts in a perthshire league is a little dissapointing to be honest...

[Finners]

I wasn't aware that scouts were meant to announce theirself at matches.

Maybe they should start wearing ID badges stating who they are scouting for. :roll:
.

well the manager/coach always gets told then tells the players either before or after depending on what he sees fit but its never a saints scout or a scout at all :(

[mainstand]

I wasn't aware that scouts were meant to announce theirself at matches.

Maybe they should start wearing ID badges stating who they are scouting for. :roll:
.

well the manager/coach always gets told then tells the players either before or after depending on what he sees fit but its never a saints scout or a scout at all :(

The scouts don't always announce their arrival. I have had scouts from various teams at kids matches and they have never told us they were coming. I suspect they will have folk taht recommend players to them from various areas ie managers of other teams etc.

[monkey]

As I stated on the Tiny Saints thread, all the boys playing in that saints team were local.

Therfore I would say its obvious Saints do have scouts working in this area.

I know who the 'old celtic scout ' for this area was, but he is now coaching at Saints and to my knowledge Celtic have never appoointed another scout in this area.

Maybe your manager is only interested in telling you about scouts from 'bigger' clubs :roll:

[Chansey]

it is the coaches job to promote every player they see fit, so maybe the problem lies with your coach?

[Finners]

:***: I dont think my coach would lie, just pointing out that saints seem to not have any scouts at games which is a shame or they never make their presence known, when a bigger clubs scout comes along he will take a player or two so i dont understand how the scouts from bigger clubs will take a player and not the saints scouts, cant be any harm in taking an odd player to see if the raw talent is worth it.

[chopper]

:***: I dont think my coach would lie, just pointing out that saints seem to not have any scouts at games which is a shame or they never make their presence known, when a bigger clubs scout comes along he will take a player or two so i dont understand how the scouts from bigger clubs will take a player and not the saints scouts, cant be any harm in taking an odd player to see if the raw talent is worth it.

But to be fair, if you haven't been picked up by the time you are at Under 17's it is highly unlikely you will be picked up by a full-time club in Scotland. Possibly part-time after going through the Juniors but a 17's you should be with a club if you are going to make it.

[208saint]

:***: I dont think my coach would lie, just pointing out that saints seem to not have any scouts at games which is a shame or they never make their presence known, when a bigger clubs scout comes along he will take a player or two so i dont understand how the scouts from bigger clubs will take a player and not the saints scouts, cant be any harm in taking an odd player to see if the raw talent is worth it.

But to be fair, if you haven't been picked up by the time you are at Under 17's it is highly unlikely you will be picked up by a full-time club in Scotland. Possibly part-time after going through the Juniors but a 17's you should be with a club if you are going to make it.

Couldn't agree more Chopper.

Do you think that Atholl, Ozzy, Davie Black etc just do the training for the kids at McD on Saturday and week nights and don't look at who are likely to make it or worth taking a better look at?

[Ronaldo]

Scouts, are these the guys you send ahead and if he gets killed or beaten up you know the enemy is there?
I was in the Cubs once but I got thrown out. I don't know why but swinging on a rope and crashing into the Cub Master and causing him to have a broken collar bone might have contributed. Great game that 'Islands'. I was only in them for three weeks. What did I learn from that experience? You've guessed it - to avoid grown men who wear shorts in the winter.
I didn't make the scouts. :roll:

[Rodgers]

St. Johnstone dont have a under 17's, they dont have alot of ages groups, and there are no scouts at St. Johnstone, the best way to get into a st.johnstone squad is to take part in Atholl Hendersoms Coaching seasons at Mc Diarmid. But even then you have to stand out by a long way.

[saintbear]

Rodgers, this is crap
:roll: :roll:

Okay have asked TC about this.
Saints have 3 scouts in Glasgow, 2 in Edinburgh, 1 in Fife, 1 in Dundee and Angus, 2 do Perth Area and 1 does Aberdeen and Highland League, 1 in Stirling.

Also Coaching staff go out and about watching games (when they don't clash with games and training).

Hope this clears this scout thing up. :wink: :)

[Real Madrid]

A very interesting topic and some good points made some of which I as the founder of Gannochy Youth football club are intending to raising with the Saints at in the next few days

There is also a bit of confusion as to what sides Saints actually have due to there being development squads which are run by Atholl but funded by the council. Its my understanding that most of the players in these teams come from the saturday and mid week sessions and thats where Atholl and his team come in (and some people on here coach)

Atholl is also involved with the Perth and Kinross Youth FA with their league development team at under 13's as it would appear it is the same players who were in the Council team and the league team and thus it makes sence to have both playing together under one set of coaches.

Bear can you confirm at what level St Johnstone start their teams.

Chopper fair point about the under 17 lad. I think this may have come up as one of the teams for the local league was given a game by Saints 17's this week (I will come back to this later). Most of the lads in our under 17's know they are not going to be picked up now howerver the strange thing is some of the current team have had trials with Aberdeen, Dunfremline and NEVER Saints :x They play football because they want to play in a team. Its only at the younger level that players hope to be picked up

Also the youth league in Perth often plays at the same time as Saints 17's and 19's so the coaches are going to be working with their players not looking out for new squad members.

FinnersfanofSTJ and Saint Rory you are both correct. At Gannochy we aim to look after every player and you don't know when a scout is to be present. if your team gets to cup finals or is at the top of the league you have more chance of being spotted but they do wander about games. If your so concerned they tend to stand in one of the corners of the pitch but I'd rather my players were concentrating on the game not who's watching. From experience they will only appraoch you at the end of the game if they want to speak to a player and his parents

Mainstand I'm glad you are in on this one. hopefully things will be better when the new regional SFA managers get into full swing. Its going to change the game at Youth level and possibly stop some of the bigger clubs taking tallent out of the area. Do people on here realise that one of his first jobs was to do an audit of who is playing at all levels covering all levels from the Boys Brigade , Cubs, Youth football, Pub league, Amatuer, Junior and senior levels. The East region of which we are part of had the lowest level of participation in Scotland and Perth and Kinross had the lowest level in this region. A lot of work is needed

Going back to the under 17 game this week I have been told that St Johnstone played Scone Thistle. I have been asked by a few players in some of our teams why we (Gannochy FC) never get these games. Tonght at training I asked all 6 of our team managers what contact they had had with St Johnstone this year and I was astounded by the reply.

Under 12's - They thought they had played Saints but it turned out to be the Council development team
Under 14's - No contact - They did speak to Saints last year at the end of the season about a game as they were interested in two of our players who were then signed but have not had the game or an further input
Under 15's - No contact at all
Under 16's - The manager and assistant have both phoned McDiarmid and visited several times and are awaiting a call back
Under 17's - No contact
Under 19's - No contact

Now thats nearly 100 players and the gut feeling I got was that Saints were not interested. I doubt this to be the case but thats the perception out there. Unless the saints team starts playing more local sides (and if they have a full schedule then there is no point in over playing them) then some lads will be over looked

Now on our part I think we should be being pro active like the 16's and I hope they have just been unlucky when they made contact with McDairmid. Tonight I will be sending the club a list of our contacts as if you don't shout you can be missed (Despite spending 140 pounds a week hiring the astro turf for training) :o

I am also surprised we have so many Scouts. I had thought we were doing less but credit to the club if this is the case. Do we need 3 in Glasgow if as Monkey points out the youngest team is all full of local boys. A Perth based team would have more in common than lads from Glasgow who had maybe been rejected by Rangers or Celtic !

[mainstand]

I did hear that we had a training school in Cumbernauls which dealt with boys from the Glasgow area, when you think of the size of the Glasgow leagues 3 is not that many.

The Development teams that Atholl runs are suppose to be the main link between the Pro side and the youth Clubs. The pyramid system that the SFA brought in several years ago mentioned this.

As for the Regional Football managers, Iam still to be convinced taht they will do any good. I have heard nothing from them or heard anything at all through the league since they started, Andy Gould is the central manager who was previously a community coach in the area prior to heading off to Rangers to head up their communiy coaching. These guys will only achieve something if they get out and start meeting clubs.

[Chansey]

I also play under 17 football. And in this area i hear of a few guys being asked to trials by saints, from places like Tranent and Haddington, however saying that these guys play for teams like Hutchison Vale etc. Its a shame the local lads seem to get ignored.

[saintbear]

Can I clarify here that youth development and youth initiative are two separate things. Youth Development=Atholl Youth Initiative= TC

Some are talking development and others are talking initiative.

[Finners]

Thanks for your information Real Madrid thats helpful. I just thought i'd bring this one up as i thought about for a while. I am surprised as well at what your coaches said to u at the different levels about no contact etc. I am actualyl on the verge of joining gannochy u-17's :***: which is a bit ironic...

[Real Madrid]

Well the forum certainly works well

Just come off the phone from TC and as I expected its not as clear cut as some may think.

There are scouts in Perth and they DO watch the 17's league. If your good enough you WILL be picked up and you dont have to be picked up at 14 to make it. Obvoiusly financially it is beneficial for saints to have local lads but they have to pick up the best they can

Saints run teams at 14's, 17's and 19's and TC can lose players up to the first team at any point.

I certainly found him very approachable and would urge any other local side with issues to speak to Saints. If your a player ask your manager to do so

Something for those who have asked about Glasgow to think about . How many local lads are in the Saints squad now compaired to say 3 years ago. Have a think and you will be surprised

[Finners]

:***: good work real madrid :wink: thanks for the extra information i find reassuring as well as encouraging.

[chopper]

Can I clarify here that youth development and youth initiative are two separate things. Youth Development=Atholl Youth Initiative= TC

Some are talking development and others are talking initiative.

Officially, all SPL and SFL clubs have their youth teams through the Youth Development Initiative, run by the SFA involving SPL and SFL clubs, albeit in SPL sections and SFL sections. These YDI teams are the official youth teams of the clubs and, as such, these players play for Saints under the guidance of Tommy Campbell and his coaching staff at Under 14, under 17 and under 19 level. I referee a number of these games for Saints, Dundee and Dundee United as well as the odd game in Fife and Angus at this level.

The right tiny tots as covered in another topic and as Real Madrid has pointed out as being under Atholl's tutiledge (sp?) are local players taken from the SFA Community program, ie they are not officially signed to the club and are likely to play football in the various Youth Leagues around this region (P&K, Fife, Dundee etc). These players cannot be called upon by Saints, but if they impress and are not attached to a club, then they can be fielded as trialists for 3 matches then the club has to either sign them on 'S' forms or they do notplay at that level again for Saints that season.

[chopper]

Couldn't agree more Chopper.

I wouldn't make a habit of that 208saint :***: :wink:

[mainstand]

The right tiny tots as covered in another topic and as Real Madrid has pointed out as being under Atholl's tutiledge (sp?) are local players taken from the SFA Community program, ie they are not officially signed to the club and are likely to play football in the various Youth Leagues around this region (P&K, Fife, Dundee etc). These players cannot be called upon by Saints, but if they impress and are not attached to a club, then they can be fielded as trialists for 3 matches then the club has to either sign them on 'S' forms or they do notplay at that level again for Saints that season.

Chopper that's interesting. In Central you can't play for the SFA youth development squads if you are signed by a team playing in the SYFA league(Cental Boys) these teams concentrate on players who are with clubs in the forth Valley Football Development league. The pyramida IIRC works along the lines of Community Coaching to Clubs to development squads to Regional development squads to Pro clubs.

[saint scotty]

The right tiny tots as covered in another topic and as Real Madrid has pointed out as being under Atholl's tutiledge (sp?) are local players taken from the SFA Community program, ie they are not officially signed to the club

This was the case with the folk i spoke to and they trained with Atholl then Alistair Stevenson took over. The team at this time was completely perth's good people. 3 left to play for the OF. Tommy Campbell came in and i'm not exaggerating there is no Perth laddies at that age anymore. The majority playing in the Perth youth league bar 4 IIRC. Make of this what you want...

[chopper]

Chopper that's interesting. In Central you can't play for the SFA youth development squads if you are signed by a team playing in the SYFA league(Cental Boys) these teams concentrate on players who are with clubs in the forth Valley Football Development league. The pyramida IIRC works along the lines of Community Coaching to Clubs to development squads to Regional development squads to Pro clubs.

That is correct mainstand, you cannot sign for the SFA clubs under their YDI programmes if you are attached to a SYFA club (Real Madrid can confirm this or shoot this out the water!), but they can play as a trialist if the SYFA side agree (again, I may be talking rubbish there).
Again the YDI system is attached to clubs and each club chooses whether to run a team at an age group or not eg Dundee United run them from 13's right through whereas Saints and Dundee only run 14's, 17's and 19's (in fact Dundee may no longer run their 17's any more). The development squads are initially started by Atholl through the SFA Community Coaching programme and these players do not train together as Saints, their parents pay for these coaching classes (ie the Saturday morning McDiarmid classes), and the lads tend to play for the local youth sides in the SYFA (Perth & Kinross) leagues. They are not attached to the club in any way, just take advantage of the club's community officer running courses.

[chopper]

The right tiny tots as covered in another topic and as Real Madrid has pointed out as being under Atholl's tutiledge (sp?) are local players taken from the SFA Community program, ie they are not officially signed to the club

This was the case with the folk i spoke to and they trained with Atholl then Alistair Stevenson took over. The team at this time was completely perth's good people. 3 left to play for the OF. Tommy Campbell came in and i'm not exaggerating there is no Perth laddies at that age anymore. The majority playing in the Perth youth league bar 4 IIRC. Make of this what you want...

Yes, this is through the SFA Community Programme, where Atholl is the SFA Community Coach and responsible for organising the school holiday programmes and other things (such as the Saturday sessions at McDiarmid etc). These players would not have been attached to the club in any way, although if they were good enough compared to others that were attached at the time, I am under no illusions that they would have been snapped up - especially when Alistair Stevenson was in charge.

Bear and Real Madrid are the best people on this subject, looking at it from different angles. At Under 17 level, very few players in any side are "local". To give an example the Dundee United v Rangers 17's match I refereed a couple of months ago saw more Dundee lads playing for Rangers than Dundee United!!!

[shandon saint]

That is correct mainstand, you cannot sign for the SFA clubs under their YDI programmes if you are attached to a SYFA club .

it all sounds very very complicated.... almost as if Jim Farry had dreamt it up....! :***:

[Gaffer]

[quote="saint scotty Tommy Campbell came in and i'm not exaggerating there is no Perth laddies at that age anymore. The majority playing in the Perth youth league bar 4 IIRC. Make of this what you want...[/quote]

This is rubbish Saint Scotty. I have a nephew that plays for Saints and I often go along to watch the 14's 17's and 19's. Tommy Campbell has a decent amount of Perth lads on his books.

I don't understand you at all. Do you suggest that the teams should all be local but full of players who will probably not make the grade? Surely the job is to get the best players possible for your team. I don't beleive that for one minute boys get binned from Tommy because they are local. This is what you are implying Saint Scott. Tommy has stayed in Perth all his life, he is unlikely to have a thing against the locals.

Do you have a gripe with him personally? Has he dumped you?

If real madrid spoke to him, I suggest you speak to him about this.

Real you are right there is quite alot of boys play at this level who are local compared to several years ago.

[mainstand]

[That is correct mainstand, you cannot sign for the SFA clubs under their YDI programmes if you are attached to a SYFA club (Real Madrid can confirm this or shoot this out the water!), but they can play as a trialist if the SYFA side agree (again, I may be talking rubbish there).
Again the YDI system is attached to clubs and each club chooses whether to run a team at an age group or not eg Dundee United run them from 13's right through whereas Saints and Dundee only run 14's, 17's and 19's (in fact Dundee may no longer run their 17's any more). The development squads are initially started by Atholl through the SFA Community Coaching programme and these players do not train together as Saints, their parents pay for these coaching classes (ie the Saturday morning McDiarmid classes), and the lads tend to play for the local youth sides in the SYFA (Perth & Kinross) leagues. They are not attached to the club in any way, just take advantage of the club's community officer running courses.

No Chopper you misunderstood me, in the Central area the teams the Community Officers run will not take a player unless there team is in the SFA run Football Development league, if they play in the central boys league they are ignored.

[mainstand]

That is correct mainstand, you cannot sign for the SFA clubs under their YDI programmes if you are attached to a SYFA club .

it all sounds very very complicated.... almost as if Jim Farry had dreamt it up....! :***:

I think you'll find the pyramid structure for teh SFA was one which Sergei Baltacha was heavily involved in during his time a s acommunity Officer.

[chopper]

No Chopper you misunderstood me, in the Central area the teams the Community Officers run will not take a player unless there team is in the SFA run Football Development league, if they play in the central boys league they are ignored.
I apologise mainstand - the points I make remain the same, but I must have misunderstood what you meant by your post. The problem nowadays is players - to be signed up by a full-time side - either need to be brought through the youth ranks of a senior side (not necessarily the club that they play for, such as Peaso) or come through the Youth leagues (whether it be P&K or Central or anywhere else), through the Junior level and then be at a part-time club, where they can then impress on the lower full-time sides (eg Ayr, Raith etc).