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I’ve just come back – ironically from a moving remembrance service – to read the latest in this thread. Can I repeat: no-one here has attempted to belittle remembrance. I only questioned holding an armed forces day at a football match, and worried that remembrance events were becoming ostentatiously trivialised and militarised. Yesterday's events only strengthened my views. In particular, the War Graves section at half-time showed how far remembrance can be hollowed of meaning. A list of locals whose Wellshill graves were maintained by the War Graves Commission was read out by children, along with the men’s rank and number. They were lauded as soldiers who had paid the ultimate sacrifice and were euphemistically described as ‘the fallen’. We were told we would remember them. But in remembering had anyone bothered to find out the human stories behind their deaths? For a start, half of those whose names were read out never fought. One was popular railway guard and reservist who died of old age in January 1915. Another grave commemorates the life of a retired Major who died peacefully at home in Balhousie Terrace. There was undoubted tragedy in some of the deaths of those named, even if they didn’t occur in battle. One died of natural causes on a training exercise; another was killed when he fell out of a train near Cumbernauld; a third fell off a horse in York. Yet another took ill in London and died in Woolwich hospital. Other deaths were accidents. One poor lad buried at Wellshill was shot in the back by his friend while hunting rabbits near Glenfarg. Perhaps the saddest untold story behind the names read out yesterday was that of a 45-year-old reservist tram conductor. After his shift, a little after 8 o’clock in the evening of Saturday, 17 August 1915, he went home to his wife and family in Brown Street, put his shotgun in his mouth, pulled the trigger and blew the top of his skull off. The trouble is that none of these fascinating, often moving stories were told, because they don’t fit a narrative that demands we only list names and numbers so we can say they all fell bravely for a single cause. But when people are so reduced, are we really remembering the human cost? I got the impression that anyone listening yesterday didn’t think much about it. This is how trivialised our remembrance has become: we seem more impressed by how quiet we were in the minute's silence than anything else. In the end, were those deaths more tragic than, say, the loss of our first-team goalkeeper, John Mulrooney, to a heart attack days after the outbreak of war? His lack of rank alone means his name will never be read out at McDiarmid. And Johnny Cameron’s war death will forever eclipse his moment of greatest bravery: when he rescued a wee girl who’d fallen into the Tay at spate in the dark in late February 1913. Cameron jumped fully-clothed into the river by Perth Bridge to swim to her and save her. But I want to close on a wider point. In offering my views on an Armed Forces Day – which would have passed without comment a few years ago – I’ve insulted no-one, nor been rude to anyone who holds a different view. I’ve attempted to put facts behind my opinions, and asked questions I was open to hear answers to. But I’ve realised most of those I’m discussing it with aren’t listening. In lieu of counter-arguments I, or others who hold similar views, have been called ‘blinkered’, ’idiots’, ’knobs’ and ’assholes’. I’ve been told to hang my head in shame and ‘get [my] attitude sorted out’. I’ve been informed that my comments were ‘offensive’ and was advised to miss the match. This thread hasn’t promoted discussion. Instead – and surely there’s irony here – it’s shown intolerance. Being called ‘assholes’ by a fellow Saints fan – and seeing the names on the list of ‘likes’ attaching themselves to such a nasty comment – strikes a new low. So this will be my last post on the topic – and in this forum. Compassion inflation and intolerance towards differing views will ensure the same Armed Forces spectacle is repeated next year. I won’t making the same argument against it then. I may not have managed to change minds, but I don’t regret for a minute speaking out against it.

I have been watching football for over 50 years. To me a big part of supporting a team is the discussion of starting 11, the formation, the substitutions, the how team played and the performance of each player. I believe their is more to supporting a team than going along watching the game and going home. To me Match day is just that a day full of anticipation, excitement, joy, sadness and listening to others opinion and giving my opinion. Yes this is certainly the best team I have seen and the best manager. But just because the are performing at the top of their game does not mean we cannot discuss or give our opinions on the pros and cons of 442, 433, diamond formation or who and why someone is substituted. Some may see it as hoo hah but to me its football.

Brogan (whoever you are), please keep contributing to this forum. I happen to agree with what you say on this issue, but even if I didn't, I would still agree that your post is amongst the most lucid and eloquent ever to appear on these pages. Whenever a The The Sevco zealot criticises you (as has happened again tonight) you know that you must have said the right thing. Please don't go! And I repeat my request for Saints to hold an 'Emergency Services Day' when police, fire, ambulance, coastguard and NHS staff can be applauded for their efforts and be admitted to the match free of charge. Unlike the armed forces, these people save lives 365 days a year.

I personally thought it was very moving with appropriate tunes from the pipe band and some very moving words from the forces reps.Never saw any "free-loaders in uniform" in the West stand.The minutes silence was perfectly observed and then the match kicked off.A fine tribute to the fallen and I for one am glad the club will be collaborating with the War Graves Commission on an annual basis.

Voted for Fisher.

Just want to put a lid on this. Forces day was brilliantly observed and moving; well done Saints, anyone who had a loved one fallen or a member of family to remember would have appreciated. To anyone who has chipped in on this tread and used some pathetic political line about why we are remebering those who have served or gave up the greatest sacrafice- hang your head in shame you bunch of assholes!

Brogan you are some guy. In your post justifying your attempt to change minds you say "I've insulted no-one". Earlier in the same post you doubt that people are really remembering the human cost. You add "I got the impression that anyone listening yesterday didn't think much about it". Well that is an insult way above the level of being called "blinkered" etc. I was thinking about the uncle I never met because he was killed, age 18, two weeks before the First World War ended. Also my father's good friends, Black Watch 6th Battalion, who died on the Dunkirk beaches. I don't claim to know what others are thinking but I would be astonished if I was the only one present thinking along those lines.

Easier to rigg when not shown live

Couple of observations from the highlights. Muzz never tracked Smith for the goal which slightly detracts from his overall performance. Still MOM though. Kanes flick for our first goal was meant, it was a superbly worked goal. I thought it was lucky at the time.

'You may not like what Rangers do but at least they do it.' Dearie me. Rangers politicisation of the poppy and football in general is one of the reasons that some people were uncomfortable with the idea of the thing in the first place. The day that St Johnstone fans need advice from Rangers fans on how to behave will never happen.

Highlights of all the games played yesterday now up. Except Saints of course!

On a similar vein to Paulo's point. Is it just me or do we almost invariably start a match by rolling the ball back to Cuptie who then hoofs a high ball cross field to the left wing where one of the opposition defenders usually gets to it first?

liar your at least 50 but I agree there's likely something wrong with you ! braw score .we only need 10 men.

I remember giving Alan Moore dogs abuse at Arbroath one game for not taking on a defender. He was probably one of the best wingers to play in the blue jersey. I was young and thought he should be fantastic every week. These are luxury players. Enjoy don't ridicule.

That was a good effort and good test and delighted to get 3 points and press on up the top of the league. Enjoyed prematch parade, credit to the organisation of it all. A few good performances out there. Well done lads!

Don't get all the hoo hah about the formation or subbing of MOH. The Manager and his assistant are the guys with their fingers on the pulse. Sad to see Cummins coming off so early, but hey ho, this is a squad of players who are all capable of starting or coming on as subs. Can't understand folk nit picking the performance etc. Personally found it a nervy 90+ minutes as both teams were prepared to attack and for once Saints rearguard managed to keep Magennis reasonably quiet. When Boyd came on, felt they would go route one and so it proved. However, the defence were equal to the task. The quality and teamwork for the two goals was worthy of the entrance fee alone. A good advert for the SPFL, but no doubt the Beeb will give the game the usual 45 second coverage at the expense of some second rate Championship game.

Great 3 points again. Muzz was fantastic then the rest were really good. About time we managed to see out a game without a sucker punch. What lies ahead for this team ..........I for one cant wait cys

Decent game altho the blood pressure through the roof last 25mins Great 3 points Plenty people had good games and the defence did everything that last 25 to help us win this game These are (still) brullyunt times to be a Perth Saint

Wheres me Comb.! he he .! all wars are disastrous Percy.! I wont argue about the whys and wherefores of conscription with you as you have taken a wee while with your comeback and have probably been doing a wee bit of due diligence .! I personally think the ceremony went down well with the Saints fans and encompasses the community focus that Saints are all about.!As to what people were thinking during the minutes silence.! South Inch sums it up for me and no doubt many others who were remembering family members lost to War.!

Im sure if you do a bit of diligent research you will find that the willing "Volunteers" vastly outnumbered the "Conscripts" who deservedly should be remembered as they never had any choice in the matter.! as should be the ones who stood up to their superior officers during WW1 and told them to GTF.! and were summarily executed for having the balls to rebel.! All should be remembered.! Thats what rememberance day is for.!....My opinion on " War" might not be too far away from yours..!.........https://youtu.be/UyiLfSHSqds

Don't see how watching football for over 50years make you more qualified or less qualified than the next man. A day at the footie for me home or away is a day out, few beers and gossip with my mates and a Saints win makes me a happy bunny. P.S. I could give you a few years

I wasn't aware that conscription equates to "willingly". That notwithstanding, at no time have I said that those who lost their lives in conflict whilst serving in the armed forces should not be commemorated - of course they should. I'm glad you acknowledge that Remembrance Day should be about innocent civilians as well. COYS

Seems to me Brogan that unless they died on the field of battle your opinion is they dont deserve "Remembrance" IMO anyone who put on a uniform to serve their country deserves remembrance.! Whether they were blown to pieces in the Somme or whether they died peacefully in bed at the age of ninety.!p.s. the remembrance at McDiarmid was not just for Saints related players or even football players.! It was for those who served their country.! p.s. how do you know what people are thinking during the minutes silence.!?

I'd wait and see what the Sportscene coverage is like this evening before giving them too much credit. The website highlights are usually given more time than the ones broadcast

Barmy flags, good quality and price.

One of the best posts I've read on here from Brogan. Absolutely no surprise that a Rangers fan finds it disgraceful.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=18spS6LgwOIGoals Just the goals from yesterday.

Brogan -That's a powerful argument. Why would you leave and not continue to put your view across so well? Bear in mind many posts and likes are made after beer o'clock, and in this case on an emotional day. I think what you miss is that not everyone has the time, inclination or ability to forensically analyse every commemorative act to vet it for its veracity and meaningfulnessness. They just take a little time out of busy lives to nod in the direction of those in general who seem to have done something for us. Do you forensically analyse every charity you give to? Do you never say "good morning" because somewhere on earth it is snowing? Maybe folk are just trying to be nice, in our own inadequate way.

As a retired soldier and I have served in many conflicts. I think this thread was set up in good faith but it has taken an uneasy turn can we now please now draw it to a close

have to watch what i say here ,but here goes i have friends in the army these are boys from perth ,one blown to bits in iraq ,another shot in the head at his barracks another who has served 25 years and has suffered terribly since leaving mostly due to the things he saw in bosnia ,another who served in ireland who also lives with the things he saw ,i have another friend who is just about to leave after twenty five years ,these lads all joined up to have a future to train hard and learn skills that you cant always get on civvy street ,when they come back onto civvy street they are forgotten about in many cases left to suffer with the horrific things they saw or have done to help protect our way of life ,BROGAN you knew what sort of reaction you would get putting this up ,your last message above is a disgrace ,half of them never fought so fecking what but even sadder you went and checked it all up .im giving facts you say bollocks your stirring it ,these men and women have fought to preserve our way of life every body should thank them and kids should be told what they have done for us and what they go through because of it and what there families go through ,saints well done on what you did yesterday .ps im not a saints fan im a rangers supporter ,my son plays for saints though and they are a family club and i never thought id see a thread like this on a saints website ,you may not like what rangers do but least they do it this may not be well written proberly cause im so angry that this is even being discussed on here

I remember when we used to shoot towards the Ormond Stand first half more often. i can't understand why we want the opposition to shoot towards their fans second half now

I thought Killie played well and caused us all sorts of problems and dominated the first half in midfield. I think we are really missing Chris Millar in the middle of the park and Darnall wasn't a success unfortunately. Not our best game but again we ground out a great result. Sign of a great team.☺

Athens. :0)

Thought it was very well done and the crowd responded appropriately nice one Saints

Same here. I've been quite scathing of this, not publicly. Tbh I've probably been ignorant. I clapped the veterans and whistled the songs and I thought it was poignant and in no way out of place. Well done to all that arranged it.

Keep up your good work Ben!

I apologise sincerely for the brain fart spelling errors. Prick seems a bit harsh, it wasn't intentional.

I wanted to vote for Steven MacLean but had to settle for Stephen MacLean instead.

The montrose saints flag came from Mr Flags, good quality!

Agree totally Ed. The back bar in Robinsons is brilliant. Front bar is good too, racing on the telly and a bookie next door - perfect . The Morning Star is brilliant for food (cheap buffet) and it's also beside a bookie!

Barmy flags

The Standard, LA. Situated on top of a hotel, with a pool and cabanas......and an "anything goes" policy. Folk were up to all sorts...... me, i went for a swim!

if the lad has such a bad attitude problem why is he getting tickets for the Preston Blackburn game for local lads in his home town,the lad is just settling in waiting on his chance I believe the strikers at Preston playing at the moment are doing well same as Kane and Sutton had to wait on there chance

team played well thought cuptie struggled at right back at times today maybe time he went to centre half full time,he is not getting any younger and keep this great player going longer

Heady times indeed for us Saintees! These last few years have been a purple patch for Saints fans! As someone who has watched Saints up and down ALL the divisions I am certainly enjoying Saints under the stewardship of TW! I am loving the never say die attitude of all...... Let's just enjoy the good times!?!

The thread has been conducted in a grown up, sensible manner, this post is completely uncalled for. There were articulate and well thought out reasons behind people's views, just because they happen to disagree with yours doesn't make them an arsehole and suggesting it does reflects on you more than them to be honest. Incidentally I don't think anybody suggested not remembering those who died in the wars either. Just an all round ridiculous post.

Interesting reaction. So many folk write Muzz off every time he gets injured. He didn't get a Scotland cap for nothing. Best midfielder we've had since Dasovic.

Thankfully Muzz failed medicals all over Britain . Immense again . Great team performance

I think it is safe to say that Fisher isn't a midfielder. Not his fault of course. Hopefully Tommy has realised his experiment hasn't been working.

two andy goram's surely unless we sang it about rough too?