1884 Posted September 27, 2010 Report Share Posted September 27, 2010 (edited) While I agree with most of what you say, it has to be remembered that Dundee have been there before, and haven't learned from the experience. Clubs need to cut their cloth according to where they are, and Dundee have gone way beyond their means. They only have their best players because they didn't pay their debts. Why should they get away with it when properly run clubs have to struggle. Sums them up in one sentence. Some fly-by-night shirt and tie wearer comes along and agrees to finance a couple of players to take DFC to the 'promised land' and when it doesn't work in one season he decides to cut his losses and jump ship, pulling the plug on said players' wages. The players are expected to abide by the terms of their contract - DFC should keep up their end of the bargain too. If they won't/can't they should be made to suffer some heavy consequences. If they can continue to survive as a footballing entity then they MUST be made to operate to a feasible business plan which includes being able to pay only a percentage of their income as players wages. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with this piss-taking for a third time. Edited September 27, 2010 by 1884 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wish i was Joe McGurn Posted September 27, 2010 Report Share Posted September 27, 2010 (edited) Sums them up in one sentence. Some fly-by-night shirt and tie wearer comes along and agrees to finance a couple of players to take DFC to the 'promised land' and when it doesn't work in one season he decides to cut his losses and jump ship, pulling the plug on said players' wages. The players are expected to abide by the terms of their contract - DFC should keep up their end of the bargain too. If they won't/can't they should be made to suffer some heavy consequences. If they can continue to survive as a footballing entity then they MUST be made to operate to a feasible business plan which includes being able to pay only a percentage of their income as players wages. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with this piss-taking for a third time. Thay had a business plan. They tore it up to start there wee game with the fans of the club. Fly by night people who want there names in the paper. Melville said when he came in that he would buy dens park, he hasn't. He said he would buy scott robertson, he hasn't. The fans took him in, thought he was the messiah, he was just a naughty boy Edited September 27, 2010 by 1884 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1884 Posted September 27, 2010 Report Share Posted September 27, 2010 If they can continue to survive as a footballing entity then they MUST be made to operate to a feasible business plan which includes being able to pay only a percentage of their income as players wages. Thay had a business plan. The keyword is feasible. So far they've just thrown caution (and cash) to the wind and hoped for the best. It didn't work. They need concrete action not some rich bloke at the capers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuggets Posted September 27, 2010 Report Share Posted September 27, 2010 Where's Gort now? Fought he would be on here as norm, saying that all is ok and nothink to worry about. Are next sugar daddy is line up, blah, blah, blah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mongy Max Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Can I get my brick back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryangordon86 Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Where's Gort now? Fought he would be on here as norm, saying that all is ok and nothink to worry about. Are next sugar daddy is line up, blah, blah, blah. Even Gort won't be able to joke about this situation. I genuinely feel sorry for the fans. If Dundee go into Administration, I don't know how they'll survive because aside from Harkins and Griffiths, they've nothing left to sell. I don't believe Bennett will chase them for the money he's owed but with the other major creditor being HMRC, they'll be stuffed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike180279 Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 (edited) Even Gort won't be able to joke about this situation. I genuinely feel sorry for the fans. If Dundee go into Administration, I don't know how they'll survive because aside from Harkins and Griffiths, they've nothing left to sell. I don't believe Bennett will chase them for the money he's owed but with the other major creditor being HMRC, they'll be stuffed.Dundee have been actively seeking to offload Griffiths since the summer. Entering Admin will only decrease his value You would think the money man would just pay this tax bill now and be done with it. If he is promising full payment in May, where is the income from? Cretainly not from Dundee if its not there already. They are already running very publicly at a loss. So, unless they are expecting a very good Scottish Cup run, there is already a massive flaw with that statement........ Edited September 28, 2010 by Mike180279 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancientsaint Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Dundee have been actively seeking to offload Griffiths since the summer. Entering Admin will only decrease his value You would think the money man would just pay this tax bill now and be done with it. If he is promising full payment in May, where is the income from? Cretainly not from Dundee if its not there already. They are already running very publicly at a loss. So, unless they are expecting a very good Scottish Cup run, there is already a massive flaw with that statement........ Melville has his own financial problems and had his fingers in so many pies in Aberdeen and abroad....Like many big businessmen he cut corners and failed to declare accounts on time and is currently under investigation. Dont know if his assets have been "frozen" just now whilst it drags on. O'Rourke and I were well aware of his "involvements" and hinted of his troubles......His worth was "on paper" and as we all know thats a current valuation of businesses at the time rather than "hard cash". Sadly Dundee "bit" the hand that wanted to feed and believed he was the "huge" backer that they needed to get out of the mire. The 1.3 million or so was "pumped" in as a loan- which was to have been paid back when the thousands of season tickets sold.....I think he was calculating that 8000 would be sold and that he would have his money back right away..a gamble that failed. I am sure that Dundee will pay the taxman or offer to pay it in January when the transfer window opens and they can "offload" Griffiths and Harkins plus afew more (although GORT will deny this will happen). Dundee fc directors should take full responsibility for misleading their fans and do the decent thing "resign". Dundee will find another investor(s)-its a big city and the club has a reasonable support...there will be someone waiting to snap it up as a bargain and then realistically rebuild . I hope it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersaint44 Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 If hes on 1800 a week as reported, hed need to take a huge pay cut Yea heard a good few of their players are on that amount, loosing thousands a week. From the SFL they seem to be sure they will be in admin by wed/thurs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 In the ultra competitive world of today is this not a great time to "Bid for Dundee"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Strasser Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Some form of action has to be taken against these clubs. They are just another Gretna, Livi. Motherwell etc. - trying to buy success and living beyond their means. It is cheating pure and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newyear'sday97 Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Some form of action has to be taken against these clubs. They are just another Gretna, Livi. Motherwell etc. - trying to buy success and living beyond their means. It is cheating pure and simple. Completely agree with this. While I would miss playing Dundee, we spent 7 years in the First Division because we played by the rules while others got away with cheating. Having said that, I'm glad Geoff had his head screwed on - at least we will always have a club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryangordon86 Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Some form of action has to be taken against these clubs. They are just another Gretna, Livi. Motherwell etc. - trying to buy success and living beyond their means. It is cheating pure and simple. I'd argue that at least 90% of Scottish clubs are living beyond their means. Where do you draw the line? Looking at the players we have in the squad, there's a good chance that we're spending a bit more than we're earning this year. A good cup run can sort that, but if we had been knocked out in the early rounds of both competitions i'd hate to see our end of year finances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike180279 Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 I'd argue that at least 90% of Scottish clubs are living beyond their means. Where do you draw the line? Looking at the players we have in the squad, there's a good chance that we're spending a bit more than we're earning this year. A good cup run can sort that, but if we had been knocked out in the early rounds of both competitions i'd hate to see our end of year financesRyan there is a massive difference. We can run at a loss because we are not running up debt in the process we have the £££ in the bank. I would be worried if we were posting a loss every year...... We also rely on income stream outside of footballing events. Many other clubs dont have this luxury Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dooj Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 How feasible would it be from an accounting point of view to enforce a regulation that restricted the percentage of income that could be spent on players' wages? I am all for having some sort of sanction on clubs that 'cheat' by going into administration but I wonder if rules are introduced about wages as proportion of income that this would just lead to clubs finding underhand means of getting round them. Also, as has already been pointed out, would Saints be penalised for spending too much on players' wages? As I say, it would be great to stop these clubs but there is no point introducing rules that cant be enforced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike180279 Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 How feasible would it be from an accounting point of view to enforce a regulation that restricted the percentage of income that could be spent on players' wages? I am all for having some sort of sanction on clubs that 'cheat' by going into administration but I wonder if rules are introduced about wages as proportion of income that this would just lead to clubs finding underhand means of getting round them. Also, as has already been pointed out, would Saints be penalised for spending too much on players' wages? As I say, it would be great to stop these clubs but there is no point introducing rules that cant be enforced.I think FIFA are imposing sanctions. Was there not something recently where club must break even over a period of time? I seem to recall this. There willl be ways round this to bring your books into line so the Chelsea's Man City's of the world would be ok but it would certainly become very difficult for a number of clubs to cheat their way to the top Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueJ Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Looking at the players we have in the squad, there's a good chance that we're spending a bit more than we're earning this year. A good cup run can sort that, but if we had been knocked out in the early rounds of both competitions i'd hate to see our end of year finances We're ok as we effectively saved up enough over the years to allow us to fund some short term spending. Dundee didn't. They just didn't pay their bills, got the bank to write off millions and held out the begging bowl for more. I don't have the obsession for Dundee that many on here do but I wouldn't lose a moments sleep if they went under. They won't, but if they did, tough. They brought it on themselves by 'chasing the dream' as much as Gretna did and deserve all they get. For the record, I would feel the same about any club that faces administration for the second time in 7 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueJ Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 How feasible would it be from an accounting point of view to enforce a regulation that restricted the percentage of income that could be spent on players' wages? I am all for having some sort of sanction on clubs that 'cheat' by going into administration but I wonder if rules are introduced about wages as proportion of income that this would just lead to clubs finding underhand means of getting round them. Also, as has already been pointed out, would Saints be penalised for spending too much on players' wages? As I say, it would be great to stop these clubs but there is no point introducing rules that cant be enforced. Clubs should be allowed to operate with manageable debt. It's a legitimate business tool after all. What should happen though as a deterant to the Dundee's etc abusing the system is that if you go into administration then that's you f'd, you're out of the league altogether as effectively that club no longer exists. I'm sure a lot more clubs would be run on a stable basis if threatened with the ultimate sanction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike180279 Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Clubs should be allowed to operate with manageable debt. It's a legitimate business tool after all. What should happen though as a deterant to the Dundee's etc abusing the system is that if you go into administration then that's you f'd, you're out of the league altogether as effectively that club no longer exists. I'm sure a lot more clubs would be run on a stable basis if threatened with the ultimate sanction. Sounds excellent in principle. Would never happen though. 2 words - Glasgow Rangers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbear Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 And whats the point throwing them to the third div,just like Meadowbank they'll be to strong for that level,and just worm there way back up[making these leagues a joke] but don't have the answer for there punishment.Wouldnt like to see them go tits up rather they were in SPL [crowds] than ICT/AMMIES[shit crowds] Like it or not we would miss the coagies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopper Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Accounting-wise it is the case where all sources of income would need to be taken into account, not just footballing income (especially prevalent for a club like ourselves - I'd imagine our non-footballing revenues is on a par if not greater than footballing revenues). What would then be forced to happen would be players sign contracts with the club for a base salary and then a contract with "sponsors" (ie a Calum Melville) that would pay them the additional salaries and not be seen on the accounts. These backers should be made to pay the players that they sign rather than the clubs and you'll soon find that they run away quickly or treat things a bit more carefully when it is their own unlimited access to their personal wealth that is being used rather than the vehicle of a business entity that they can stop funding whenever they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wish i was Joe McGurn Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 And whats the point throwing them to the third div,just like Meadowbank they'll be to strong for that level,and just worm there way back up[making these leagues a joke] but don't have the answer for there punishment.Wouldnt like to see them go tits up rather they were in SPL [crowds] than ICT/AMMIES[shit crowds] Like it or not we would miss the coagies Surely you mean ferranti thistle ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garydavidson Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 How feasible would it be from an accounting point of view to enforce a regulation that restricted the percentage of income that could be spent on players' wages? I am all for having some sort of sanction on clubs that 'cheat' by going into administration but I wonder if rules are introduced about wages as proportion of income that this would just lead to clubs finding underhand means of getting round them. Also, as has already been pointed out, would Saints be penalised for spending too much on players' wages? As I say, it would be great to stop these clubs but there is no point introducing rules that cant be enforced. Are Rangers not under investigation because they had a fund they used to give money to their players and staff and it appears none of this was taxed or paid any NI contributions to it? Clubs would do things such as this to get round any such rules, especially the big four in England. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Jimbo, While I agree with most of what you say, it has to be remembered that Dundee have been there before, and haven't learned from the experience. Clubs need to cut their cloth according to where they are, and Dundee have gone way beyond their means. They only have their best players because they didn't pay their debts. Why should they get away with it when properly run clubs have to struggle. This goes not only fro Dundee but for all the Wannabes - Livvy, Gretna and most likely both halves of the Old Firm - now if only the banks etc would take them on. thats fair enough and I agree clubs should cut their cloth to what they can manage. However there is always the dream (fans,director etc) to get promoted, win the cup...etc, Crystal Palace are now living within our means which means we will finish bottom of the league. as people have said rules need to be in place to stop clubs cheating and trying to live the dream like gretna livvy etc, however sometimes it works - chelsea not so long ago, fulham and QPR seem to be getting away with it. i'm not saying its right - purely that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt. personally i think wage caps and rules on transfer fees would be good. my main point is that its the fans that suffer - i wouldnt want dundee to go bust and i wouldnt wish admin on them for the sake of the fans. Money comes and goes but the fans are the ones who pick up the pieces. the sooner FIFA/UEFA/SFA/FA get some rules in place to control the money side of things the better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancientsaint Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Businesses in Dundee have now raised £75,000 towards the Tax-Bill...Melville willing to put in £100,000....so thats £175,000 so far.........Multi-millions eh mmmmm ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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