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#14 - 06/11/10 - Saints 0-3 Kilmarnock - SPL

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I think the problem was that Mackay (as always when he plays right back) pushed on too far. Cleve was often our furthest forward player meaning we had a massive imbalance. Maybury didn't Liam sitting on top of him, though and Del did nowt to change it.

It's fine saying that Cynical and other are knee-jerkers but look at the positions:

Smith in goal - should have been Enckleman

Mackay at right back - should have been Maybury

Duberry at right centre back - correct choice

Dinky at left centre back - should have been Mackay

Maybury at left back - should have been Anderson

Midgie on right wing - should have been Dobie

Jody in midfield - should have been Cads

Muzz in midfield - should have been Midgie

Craig on left wing - correct choice

Parkin up front - correct choice

Jacko up front - should have been Haber

I'll let him off with Jody as it was a surprise to see him so far off the pace but the others are obvious errors and all bar Smith/Enckleman cost us performance.

He got 2 out of 11 right - that's awful. Jimmy C quickly please.

Is this your opinion or did you get it from someone else ??

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You can't count - by your own reckoning he got 3 out of 11 correct not 2!...

Parkin I thought was poor yesterday, couple of chances where he had the ball at his feet inside the 6 yard box when all he had to do was poke it in but he fluffed it. Jacko put in a good work rate yesterday and was unlucky not to get the penalty.

I stand corrected, sir!

Parkin was off-form yesterday but he still got in the positions.

The problem with Jacko is that he was something really special - he's lost a bit of hunger, a bit of belief and a bit of killer instinct. He crossed from a tight angle yesterday, the old Jacko would have taken a shot. The cross was sclaffed and produced nowt.

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So following the under 19 players about trying to get gossip from them is something you have been doing for a while then.

Nice try, but those players were first team guys.

Sad to say that I don't know any of the 19s very well. You and your mate are barking up the wrong tree, but it's funny watching from the outside...

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I think the problem was that Mackay (as always when he plays right back) pushed on too far. Cleve was often our furthest forward player meaning we had a massive imbalance. Maybury didn't Liam sitting on top of him, though and Del did nowt to change it.

It's fine saying that Cynical and other are knee-jerkers but look at the positions:

Smith in goal - should have been Enckleman

Mackay at right back - should have been Maybury

Duberry at right centre back - correct choice

Dinky at left centre back - should have been Mackay

Maybury at left back - should have been Anderson

Midgie on right wing - should have been Dobie

Jody in midfield - should have been Cads

Muzz in midfield - should have been Midgie

Craig on left wing - correct choice

Parkin up front - correct choice

Jacko up front - should have been Haber

I'll let him off with Jody as it was a surprise to see him so far off the pace but the others are obvious errors and all bar Smith/Enckleman cost us performance.

He got 3 out of 11 right - that's awful. Jimmy C quickly please.

What you have given is an opinion. You can't say the decisions were right or wrong, You can only say that in your opinion you would not have selected that team.

Smith has done nothing wrong and deserves to keep the jersey. Ando was dire the last game and got pulled off at half time so why play him at left back.

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Gave up reading the thread quite early on as it's truely depressing to read folk who have been supporting Saints for two minutes berating the manager and calling for his head.

Relevance? Just because I'm not a superfan who's supported them since I was knee high to a grasshopper doesn't make my opinion worthless. I stood by McInnes throughout the horrors of the first division and largely (but for a couple of blips) through last season, but the showing at Hampden was very much a turning point. I can't pretend I'm a "better fan" than you or anyone else, but I know what I'm seeing. Just because things have been worse doesn't mean we should accept mediocrity. That's like saying "who cares about this recession, I lived through the great depression!" Just because things were worse in the past, doesn't mean the current problems are any less significant. Now I'm not saying we're in trouble, I'm saying we're underachieving, largely due to manegerial errors. You must certainly agree we aren't living up to our potential?

Yesterday was another bad day at the office but we'd go through a dozen managers a season if we listened to fans like Cynical Saintee, who comes across as a total dobber. It'll take a lot more than a couple of bad results (one against Celtic) for our board to act, thankfully.

You're forgetting Saints 0 - Motherwell 2, Inverness 1 - Saints 1, United 1 - Saints 0, Saints 0 - Aberdeen 1, and now Saints 0 - Kilmarnock 3. All what I'd call "disappointing" rather than disastrous results, but each with the common factor of poor tactics, inability to change a system which isn't working or poor team selection. We've played 11 games and 5 of those were games we could, or should, have got more from, but for some blunders by the management.

In saying that, several frustrating things yesterday. We have a decent defensive unit so IMO the manager needs to try and keep it as consistent as possible and that meant slotting Anderson in for Grainger. It can't be easy when he makes two positional changes and introduces a different player. Also felt he gave Killie a bit too much respect, as good as they were last week and, as it turned out, yesterday. We should have been forcing them to worry about us in our home match but instead we had Maybury and Craig pushed right back so had no attacking threat down the left. Morris and Davidson weren't fit. Can understand why he's so keen for them to play as we are poorer without both but they need to be able to offer more than they did. The strikers ended up working off nothing.

Because he's a prize numpty.

Killie like to knock the ball about and did it well even on our dreadful pitch but we are far more direct but to make that work the tempo needs to be high. We managed it for spells in the second half but not for long enough.

Some tough games coming up and we can't let a couple of bad results turn into a run of them.

Del has built the team to be long ball and we've been sussed out. Put a couple of tall, strong CBs in defense and we're stumped.

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Relevance? Just because I'm not a superfan who's supported them since I was knee high to a grasshopper doesn't make my opinion worthless. I stood by McInnes throughout the horrors of the first division and largely (but for a couple of blips) through last season, but the showing at Hampden was very much a turning point. I can't pretend I'm a "better fan" than you or anyone else, but I know what I'm seeing. Just because things have been worse doesn't mean we should accept mediocrity. That's like saying "who cares about this recession, I lived through the great depression!" Just because things were worse in the past, doesn't mean the current problems are any less significant. Now I'm not saying we're in trouble, I'm saying we're underachieving, largely due to manegerial errors. You must certainly agree we aren't living up to our potential?

Fucking hell, we won the First Division in the season you are talking about horrors. We finished last season in a league placing we've bettered only seven times since the end of the Second World War. You have no grasp on reality or where St Johnstone's standing in the game is. That is what this is about, not whether you are a superfan, whatever one of those is.

But well fucking done to you for standing by the club last season and enduring that mediocrity.

I've no interest in replying to the rest of your rubbish as, as said, you have no grasp on reality.

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Fucking hell, we won the First Division in the season you are talking about horrors. We finished last season in a league placing we've bettered only seven times since the end of the Second World War. You have no grasp on reality or where St Johnstone's standing in the game is. That is what this is about, not whether you are a superfan, whatever one of those is.

But well fucking done to you for standing by the club last season and enduring that mediocrity.

I've no interest in replying to the rest of your rubbish as, as said, you have no grasp on reality.

I was referring to the "horrors" of the likes of losing 4-0 to Partick, 3-2 to Clyde and 3-0 to Dunfermline at home, although I can see how you'd mistake that for a highlight. :?

You have to take each season as it comes. Last season was supposed to be the season we fought relegation - we not only comfortably avoided it but flourished. This despite having pretty much the worst defense in the SPL. Since then our defense hasn't improved massively but the goals have dried up and we no longer have the benefit of being the "new team in the league" with the element of surprise.

Edited by CynicalSaintee

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I was referring to the "horrors" of the likes of losing 4-0 to Partick, 3-2 to Clyde and 3-0 to Dunfermline at home, although I can see how you'd mistake that for a highlight. :?

Well done to you for standing by the club during that period of real hardship. Puts you right up there with the away fans in the crowd of 110 that saw us play away at East Stirlingshire in a season where we finished above only eight other clubs in the whole Scottish League system.

I think it was only 22 games we went without losing a game under the dreadful Derek McInnes following that massive barren run of three league games.

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Well done to you for standing by the club during that period of real hardship. Puts you right up there with the away fans in the crowd of 110 that saw us play away at East Stirlingshire in a season where we finished above only eight other clubs in the whole Scottish League system.

I think it was only 22 games we went without losing a game under the dreadful Derek McInnes following that massive barren run of three league games.

Look back to posts made at the time and the threads, I was relatively level headed!

Largely due to the form of Kevin Rutkiewicz and having a settled defense, which since then has gone to pieces. Not to mention the fact that the first division was much weaker and our biggest rivals for the title were Dundee and Partick, which says it all when you look at their teams at the time.

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Largely due to the form of Kevin Rutkiewicz and having a settled defense, which since then has gone to pieces.

Before the Celtic games, we had conceded ten goals in eleven games and had the fourth best defensive record in the SPL! We had a bad few days against a Celtic side that have scored forty goals in thirteen domestic games this season, including putting three or more past St Mirren, Hearts, Hamilton, Aberdeen and ICT as well as ourselves. After that we had a poor showing yesterday clearly but the previous three games (including two against Celtic) now count for more than the previous eleven, where only Rangers and Motherwell had scored more than one goal against us in a match?

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Before the Celtic games, we had conceded ten goals in eleven games and had the fourth best defensive record in the SPL! We had a bad few days against a Celtic side that have scored forty goals in thirteen domestic games this season, including putting three or more past St Mirren, Hearts, Hamilton, Aberdeen and ICT as well as ourselves. After that we had a poor showing yesterday clearly but the previous three games (including two against Celtic) now count for more than the previous eleven, where only Rangers and Motherwell had scored more than one goal against us in a match?

"Lies, damned lies and statistics". I'm a scientist, I believe in trends. Our current trend isn't a good one.

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"Lies, damned lies and statistics". I'm a scientist, I believe in trends. Our current trend isn't a good one.

Our current trend of one game against Killie - who scored two late goals when we were chasing a game - and two against one of the biggest clubs in Britain? A club who have scored forty domestic goals this season and just rattled nine past Aberdeen.

I'm converted. Our defence is rubbish.

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Our current trend of one game against Killie - who scored two late goals when we were chasing a game - and two against one of the biggest clubs in Britain? A club who have scored forty domestic goals this season and just rattled nine past Aberdeen.

I'm converted. Our defence is rubbish.

Individually we have good defenders, but as a unit when they're constantly shuffled how can you expect them to perform?

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Individually we have good defenders, but as a unit when they're constantly shuffled how can you expect them to perform?

So our rubbish defence has good defenders individually. So when they are a unit that aren't shuffled constantly, how do they perform? By conceding eleven goals in ten games is the answer.

I've already said that IMO we should try to make as fewest changes to the settled four as possible by the way.

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£320K loss since 08/09 ain't so good.

That's not the point you were addressing. You were suggesting that our management team is inept, when in fact they have returned us to a position in the Scottish game that most would expect us to be at.

We were in the doldrums, by doldrums I mean a vast, swelling ocean of faecal matter. We're now competing at a mid-SPL level with what presumably is a sound budget structure in place.

I think you should take a step back for your own sake.

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Guest Harry Curran's Love child

Will swerve the guff being posted my many and skip straight to my own thoughts on the game.

The biggest difference between the two teams was Eremenko in the centre of the park. Everything came through him, he was prepared to track back, pick a pass, receive the ball and get a foot in when required, something that we lacked almost to a man. Even on a horrendous pitch his quality shone through. He wont be with Killie much longer IMO.

I thought Smith did ok (kicking much improved, especially on that surface), Duberry looked solid and Parkin, although not his usual self, at least tried to put himself about a bit. Disappointed by Liam and Jacko in particular. Would be easy to slate others but I think there are probably varying reasons for a number of poor performances ie lack of fitness and being played out of position, for which I wont knock them on their performance.

Overall an utterly guff spectacle. Killie will beat and cause problems to better teams than us, especially with Eremenko, Sissoko and Sammon in the team.

Would have to note that the atmosphere at the game was not a pleasant one. Most fans seem to be on the back of the team from the kick-off and was close to giving the guy behind me a smack in the mouth for an almost instantaneous and continuous volley of abuse towards Chris Millar. Yes he didnt play well but he was one of the few who looked liked he cared.

Ultimately we draw a line under this game and move on.

Very disappointed? yes

Time to panic? No

Looking forward to next game? You bet your ass I am

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Killie looked fitter and hungrier. They wanted to win it, and went about doing it in a business-like way.

We were awful; no fight or passion. We seem to have lost the ability to pass, run and close down. There was no movement or invention, the only players who looked like they were trying were Taylor and Parkin. I don't mind the team losing a game, but when I see them playing without passion and just not bothering, then something is seriously wrong.

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I gave up on 3 points when I saw Dinky was starting with Maybury at left back. I'd like to know 1. why Dinky was playing ahead of Anderson and 2. why Gartland was given a new contract.

Jacko does not look the player he was, which is a shame. Looking at today he won't be earning a new contract. Haber should have been on a lot sooner, a Coyle-esque pointlessly late subbie.

On the plus side, I still don't fully trust Smith, but he has looked a lot better since his return. Parkin played well again.

I know there are complaints about the fickleness of the support, but even in our wins this season there has been very little fluency, a poorish run would be easier to take if there was some nice football in between.

Not the end of the world, but worrying that there are now close to a handful of games where we just haven't look up for it. We are looking a bit jaded and unimaginative at the moment, which we really shouldn't be.

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