Time for a change?

[Legend of Zorro]

Watching that game yesterday for me was the final straw to a situation that has now been going on for over a year.

Against probably the worst team to visit McD since we came up we were utterly clueless in trying to break them down, Del has set the mindset of our team so much to stop the other team scoring that we have now forgotten how to attack. Why has this happened? 18 months ago we had 2 of the best displays seen at McD when we hammered Hibs and Rangers with great attacking play since then there has been barely a home game where we have played well. With the squad of players he has got why is he so afraid to have a go. This can`t go on much longer we are now down to barely 2000 home fans with many of them fed up with the lack of entertainment, christ 10 home goals in a years is a fecking disgrace. There was lots of moaning yesterday which in my opinion was totally justified, it should be directed at the manager for his negative, anti attacking football. This spell of watching Saints ranks as one of the worst I can remember, maybe not quite as bad as the mid eighties but at least then we could still put the ball in the net!

I take my boy to the games and it`s now a chore going knowing that there will be zero entertainment on offer. Getting folk to go to the games is hard enough without the excuse of watching the pish we are serving up week after week.

The time for change is now before its too late, 2 more home games like that and there will be no home fans left. GB has got to be a worried man tying Del on a long term contract knowing that with this pish style of football he will be going nowhere else unless punted with nobody at the game watching it.

[andrew]

Exactly what I think Zorro.

[st paddy]

I have been wary of the knee jerk "sack the manager" threads up till now.

If the last three games are taken in isolation, then we could probably call it a blip, a bad patch, a settling in period for the new squad... however you want to justify it.

Unfortunately, you have to look at almost all of last season (yes there were positives, but what if these were the "blips"....?) and the way the team is set up to be hard to beat, a style that sucks all the entertainment out of games and makes it that much harder to take when we are beaten.

I had thought (hoped? assumed?) that the manager knew what he was doing and in Del I trusted. I think he has a great contacts book, and has attracted an above average calibre of player to the club, but the increasingly inane selections and tactics have made it more and more clear that he doesnt have a bloody clue and is making it up as he goes along.

I had been of the opinion that if Del left, who would we replace him with? Can we afford to remove him AND pay a decent contract to his replacement? Now I am of the opinion, can we afford to leave him in charge of the team?

Can we realisticly look at bringing in someone with more tactical nous and the balls to drop/rest player (so we can properly change the style of play, rather than shift players around and drop square pegs pegs in round holes...)

Come in Del McInnes, your time is up.....

[Oldmuirton]

I believe Del is a good manager and doubt that we can afford a better one.

But it is hard to deny the comments above. Watching Saints no longer qualifies as entertainment.

Its a duty- and its getting harder and harder to take. Certainly not a pleasure.

I hope Del can remember how we played in our first year back in the SPL and get us back there before it is too late for all of us.

[One Goran Stanic]

I didn't think yesterday was that bad! The result was obviously terrible but the performance was a lot better than previous goalless ones. We were creating chances and putting balls into the box much more than recent games. With Haber's direct running and the promise sandaza showed I'm absolutely positive that we will have no issues with scoring.

The manager should be praised for the quality of signings made this season, in my opinion. On paper we are no doubt a top 6 side, give them a chance to how that on grass. Del must stay...

[andrew]

I didn't think yesterday was that bad! The result was obviously terrible but the performance was a lot better than previous goalless ones. We were creating chances and putting balls into the box much more than recent games. With Haber's direct running and the promise sandaza showed I'm absolutely positive that we will have no issues with scoring.

The manager should be praised for the quality of signings made this season, in my opinion. On paper we are no doubt a top 6 side, give them a chance to how that on grass. Del must stay...

Your second paragraph is correct - he should be applauded for (some) of his signings, and there's no doubt that on paper we could be sixth.

Unfortunately, he is clueless when it comes to making a decent job of putting said players into an attacking, entertaining formation. He doesn't have the guts to drop some of his favourites when its called for.

He should not, at this stage, be patronising us by stating that survival is his main aim and then we'll see from there. That's every team's aim apart from 3, and goes without saying.

Mid season last year we were nowhere near direct enough - and I don't mean the long ball pish that we played yesterday on our new and perfect pitch. A malaise has set in and when that happens its usually beyond the incumbent to change things.

[One Goran Stanic]

Your second paragraph is correct - he should be applauded for (some) of his signings, and there's no doubt that on paper we could be sixth.

Unfortunately, he is clueless when it comes to making a decent job of putting said players into an attacking, entertaining formation. He doesn't have the guts to drop some of his favourites when its called for.

He should not, at this stage, be patronising us by stating that survival is his main aim and then we'll see from there. That's every team's aim apart from 3, and goes without saying.

Mid season last year we were nowhere near direct enough - and I don't mean the long ball pish that we played yesterday on our new and perfect pitch. A malaise has set in and when that happens its usually beyond the incumbent to

change things.

Apart from Morris, he has dropped a number of his 'favourites' this season. Millar, Craig and Anderson have all been left out this season.

I agree that our aim should be higher, he is just covering his own arse with pish 11th place is great chat.

This is the same manager that provided us with the great entertainment 2 years ago. If we had scored the penalty and went on to win yesterday, which I believe we probably would have, would people still be on here greeting? You can see improvement from last season already. Give it a few games and if it's still the same then maybe my opinion will change. But for now I remain optimistic about this season.

[andrew]

Apart from Morris, he has dropped a number of his 'favourites' this season. Millar, Craig and Anderson have all been left out this season.

I agree that our aim should be higher, he is just covering his own arse with pish 11th place is great chat.

This is the same manager that provided us with the great entertainment 2 years ago. If we had scored the penalty and went on to win yesterday, which I believe we probably would have, would people still be on here greeting? You can see improvement from last season already. Give it a few games and if it's still the same then maybe my opinion will change. But for now I remain optimistic about this season.

He hasn't dropped Millar, he's injured.

This isn't the same manager who provided us with great entertainment 2 years ago - this is an impostor - someone has kidnapped Derek McInnes and replaced him with a lookalike.

[One Goran Stanic]

He hasn't dropped Millar, he's injured.

This isn't the same manager who provided us with great entertainment 2 years ago - this is an impostor - someone has kidnapped Derek McInnes and replaced him with a lookalike.

Millar wasn't injured for the rangers game? Aye well something's changed. Be nice if it changes back.

[slf]

lets piss on the old firm.

[squiddy]

Cillian to score a hatrick against the club that dumped him at CP as saints romp to a 4-2 win.

Thats whats great about supporting saints, we have to watch a lot of dross, but when the good times come a calling its all the more enjoyable.

I think the merits of Del should be discussed it is only natural with the lack of goals we have scored for a prolonged period, and the lack of entertainment.

I still think we have a good manager, and like the team he needs a bit of good fortune to get the momentum going at the club again. I really cant see who we could get that would be better, and some of the names pumped around really fill me with dread.

[slf]

of nappie?

[BlueJ]

Yes, time for a change...of outlook and tactics. Jut go back to season 09/10's approach please Del and we'll be fine.

[HertsSaintee]

You can see improvement from last season already.

Whoa! That's a big, bold statement, but I for one certainly wouldn't include myself in the collective "you" you've used in that sentence...

Come on, you have to admit that "improvement from last season" can only mean that we start scoring goals and winning matches, especially at home, and certainly against teams with 10 players in them. From where I'm sitting there certainly has been a change, but to me we now look like we've moved from being the stagnant side we were last season to one that is now going backwards. New players, certainly - that leaves only one common factor I'm afraid. There doesn't appear to be the team spirit we used to have and I believe the manager has lost the dressing room and his standing amongst a lot of the players - I thought that for a lot of last season too. Time for some blue tinted specs to come off I fear...

[Guest Harry Curran's Love child]

No. Let's move on.

[Radford 72]

I think it was fair to expect more yesterday. The new signings (all ten of them) thing works both ways. It will take time to get things going but at the same time it was the first real opportunity (as there's only so much achievable in Old Firm games) for this new team to put down a marker and they failed to do that.

Have we ever started a season well under McInnes though? In 2008/09 we lost five (won one) of our first seven games against opposition from our division yet went on to first go on a winning run of six games, then a long unbeaten run and in the end won the league once the manager got the team going the way he wanted.

In 2009/10 it took us until October to win an SPL match but we found our feet, especially when the manager was only required to do a wee bit of fine tuning in the January transfer window.

Last season we had a poor start again with one point from the first four games, including a dreadful performance against Motherwell but again the manager improved that, even if we didn't reach the heights of 2009/10.

If you are going to let a manager sign ten or eleven new players over a summer transfer window, there needs to be a level of acceptance that you give him time to mould a new team, which is what we are. Five new signings involved vs Aberdeen, six vs Rangers and seven yesterday. Of course we'd like everything to fall into place straight away but sometimes it just takes time. Folk rave about Kilmarnock last season but Mixu Paatelainen had to put together a new side there and they were dreadful in the opening part of the season, unfortunately clicking just before they played us in Perth. Prior to that (and beating Hearts 3-0 at Tynecastle), their record was seven points from nine matches. We might not end up like Killie last season but after the poor season they'd had under Calderwood, I suspect they were pretty down in the dumps when they were bottom of the league heading into November.

In saying all that, of course McInnes shouldn't be given an endless period of time to get things going and clearly there are things that needed improved but, again, why let him sign all these new players if you are going to sack him after three matches at the start of a new season, one of them against the champions.

I know the arguement will be that we're carrying things from last season into this one but it's a new squad. Let's just give them (and in turn the manager) some time to show us what we hope their capable of. Folk seem generally happy enough with the squad and, as highlighted, it's always taken the manager a few games to get his best side nailed down in all of his three full seasons.

We have a hard run of games coming up but IMO the first time questions about his future should even seriously start to be asked is when we move into October and have played nine or ten matches (i.e. a quarter of the season).

I appreciate there are some fans who have been unhappy with the manager for a lot longer than three matches and they probably feel he should have been sacked in the summer or before but the knee jerk reaction to three matches from others is the same as what we saw in 2008/09.

So no change of manager for me at this time, instead just a plea to give the team and the manager your backing over the next weeks.

[Radford 72]

There doesn't appear to be the team spirit we used to have and I believe the manager has lost the dressing room and his standing amongst a lot of the players...

I was waiting for this stuff to start getting trotted out. This was exactly the same as what all these fans in the know told us when the Pars, Partick Thistle and Clyde were gubbing us three years ago. We then went over twenty games without losing, with some great comebacks. That was a strange way for the players to behave for a manager they didn't respect.

Nonsense about the manager losing the dressing room helps absolutely nobody. Which players has he lost in particular? It was Paul Sheerin, Martin Hardie and Alan Main a few years ago IIRC.

[One Goran Stanic]

Whoa! That's a big, bold statement, but I for one certainly wouldn't include myself in the collective "you" you've used in that sentence...

Come on, you have to admit that "improvement from last season" can only mean that we start scoring goals and winning matches, especially at home, and certainly against teams with 10 players in them. From where I'm sitting there certainly has been a change, but to me we now look like we've moved from being the stagnant side we were last season to one that is now going backwards. New players, certainly - that leaves only one common factor I'm afraid. There doesn't appear to be the team spirit we used to have and I believe the manager has lost the dressing room and his standing amongst a lot of the players - I thought that for a lot of last season too. Time for some blue tinted specs to come off I fear...

We are creating chances though. Last season we struggled to create therefore struggled to score. So with us creating chances and and actually looking okay going forward there is an improvement from last season. No?

No team spirit? Manager has lost the dressing room? These statements are much more bold than mine, which was based on fact rather than personal opinion.

[O'Rourke]

I spoke to all the players yesterday (bar Enks and Sam Parkin). They were all absolutely gutted to have lost that game and seem united in the believe that things will sort themselves out pretty soon.

Cillian is a weird fish and seems to be wired up differently from your normal human being.

[john1962]

I spoke to all the players yesterday (bar Enks and Sam Parkin). They were all absolutely gutted to have lost that game and seem united in the believe that things will sort themselves out pretty soon.

Cillian is a weird fish and seems to be wired up differently from your normal human being.

Didn't the courts stop you going within 150 yards of the players?

[ancientsaint]

Didn't the courts stop you going within 150 yards of the players?

He sends the bairn in first and she shouts him over - the memoribilia is all "to dave love the boys ".........he is a saintee stalker.

[HertsSaintee]

I was waiting for this stuff to start getting trotted out. This was exactly the same as what all these fans in the know told us when the Pars, Partick Thistle and Clyde were gubbing us three years ago. We then went over twenty games without losing, with some great comebacks. That was a strange way for the players to behave for a manager they didn't respect.

Nonsense about the manager losing the dressing room helps absolutely nobody. Which players has he lost in particular? It was Paul Sheerin, Martin Hardie and Alan Main a few years ago IIRC.

As it's a general opinion, I can't give the you an answer to the question in your second paragraph - but to be fair to me, I certainly wouldn't describe myself as being "in the know" as you seem to imply (perhaps that was a dig at the dearly departed, I don't know...), so I have no way of knowing whether I am "trotting out nonsense" or not. However, body language is telling - Liam Craig's before he took the penalty yesterday being one example.

Like you, I go to watch us play week in, week out, home and away. In my (perhaps) simplistic way of looking at things, it seems clear to me that there's something not right, and I believe there's a pattern in terms of the manager being the constant factor! Your other post points to the bad starts to to the season we've experienced under this manager. That's true, but I'd have actually seen a good start to this one as a true sign of improvement - presumably that would suggest the manager has put his finger on the problem or problems of last season? But it's same old, and equally frustrating, so that's NOT improvement to me.

As far as I'm concerned, the "but we are creating chances" thing as mentioned by One Goran Stanic is not substantiated either. Yesterday, there was NOT wave upon wave of blue attack. We did NOT pepper the Pars goal with shots. We continue to be lethargic, indecisive and defensive-minded when in the opposition's half. Same against Aberdeen. Same as last season. NOT improvement. Also forget this stuff about "we don't have a winger". An effective manager would presumably accomodate that fact and play to the strengths we do have?

We DO have some decent players, the best is NOT being got out of them.

[The ghost of Jim Morton]

I think it was fair to expect more yesterday. The new signings (all ten of them) thing works both ways. It will take time to get things going but at the same time it was the first real opportunity (as there's only so much achievable in Old Firm games) for this new team to put down a marker and they failed to do that.

Have we ever started a season well under McInnes though? In 2008/09 we lost five (won one) of our first seven games against opposition from our division yet went on to first go on a winning run of six games, then a long unbeaten run and in the end won the league once the manager got the team going the way he wanted.

In 2009/10 it took us until October to win an SPL match but we found our feet, especially when the manager was only required to do a wee bit of fine tuning in the January transfer window.

Last season we had a poor start again with one point from the first four games, including a dreadful performance against Motherwell but again the manager improved that, even if we didn't reach the heights of 2009/10.

If you are going to let a manager sign ten or eleven new players over a summer transfer window, there needs to be a level of acceptance that you give him time to mould a new team, which is what we are. Five new signings involved vs Aberdeen, six vs Rangers and seven yesterday. Of course we'd like everything to fall into place straight away but sometimes it just takes time. Folk rave about Kilmarnock last season but Mixu Paatelainen had to put together a new side there and they were dreadful in the opening part of the season, unfortunately clicking just before they played us in Perth. Prior to that (and beating Hearts 3-0 at Tynecastle), their record was seven points from nine matches. We might not end up like Killie last season but after the poor season they'd had under Calderwood, I suspect they were pretty down in the dumps when they were bottom of the league heading into November.

In saying all that, of course McInnes shouldn't be given an endless period of time to get things going and clearly there are things that needed improved but, again, why let him sign all these new players if you are going to sack him after three matches at the start of a new season, one of them against the champions.

I know the arguement will be that we're carrying things from last season into this one but it's a new squad. Let's just give them (and in turn the manager) some time to show us what we hope their capable of. Folk seem generally happy enough with the squad and, as highlighted, it's always taken the manager a few games to get his best side nailed down in all of his three full seasons.

We have a hard run of games coming up but IMO the first time questions about his future should even seriously start to be asked is when we move into October and have played nine or ten matches (i.e. a quarter of the season).

I appreciate there are some fans who have been unhappy with the manager for a lot longer than three matches and they probably feel he should have been sacked in the summer or before but the knee jerk reaction to three matches from others is the same as what we saw in 2008/09.

So no change of manager for me at this time, instead just a plea to give the team and the manager your backing over the next weeks.

Ah, the voice of sanity speaks. Good (actually very good) and well balance post.

For my tuppence worth, I feel we seem to lack unity on the pitch and more importantly we have a lack of leaders who can both inspire and bully ( when bullying is needed). This may be connected to the amount of new signings who don't know the existing players well enough yet and vice-versa. The penalty incident yesterday perfectly illustrated this. The nod had to come from the bench rather than someone on the pitch. In days gone by we would have had at least one player on the pitch who would have strode up to Sandaza, taken the ball of him, given it to Craig and told everyone to shut there pusses.

[Davie81]

I'm probably going to get a slagging for this but I think that we should get rid of both Del and Geoff Brown if he'd sell to a decent buyer! He's no ambition for the club and I think that it shows with the prices, lack of fans attending games, signing utter crap (a couple of names in the past 2 seasons being excempt) etc.

Fair enough we're not in any debt and fair play to him for that but at least show some ambition at the club. If his horse needed a new stable for example, I bet he wouldn't be shy to stick his hand in his pockets then.

[john1962]

I'm probably going to get a slagging for this but I think that we should get rid of both Del and Geoff Brown if he'd sell to a decent buyer! He's no ambition for the club and I think that it shows with the prices, lack of fans attending games, signing utter crap (a couple of names in the past 2 seasons being excempt) etc.

Fair enough we're not in any debt and fair play to him for that but at least show some ambition at the club. If his horse needed a new stable for example, I bet he wouldn't be shy to stick his hand in his pockets then.

I am not really sure what else you want Geoff to do. He has backed the manager to the hilt in the last two close seasons as well as repairing the pitch.