What will you do if new Rangers are allowed straight into SPL?  

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So in your ever so accurate theory, at what point will they go bust again?

No idea. I don't have access to their bank accounts (if they have one!).

You seem to keep questioning my numbers, but have never backed that up with any of your own. Are they educated guesses? Yes.

Very different to made up numbers. These numbers are the best based on publically available information, but show that the operation is not sustainable.

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No idea. I don't have access to their bank accounts (if they have one!).

You seem to keep questioning my numbers, but have never backed that up with any of your own. Are they educated guesses? Yes.

Very different to made up numbers. These numbers are the best based on publically available information, but show that the operation is not sustainable.

They are based on speculation and even if they were true would hardly be a n example of an outrageously poor buisness plan. With a club of that size £2mil loss in the 3rd division is hardly disatserous. But the bottom line is you're figures are based on conjecture and regardless of how well you present them, it based on guess work. And more importnantly, some of your guesses are off.

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They are based on speculation and even if they were true would hardly be a n example of an outrageously poor business plan. With a club of that size £2mil loss in the 3rd division is hardly disastrous. But the bottom line is you're figures are based on conjecture and regardless of how well you present them, it based on guess work. And more importantly, some of your guesses are off.

- a loss of 2m for 3 years is 6m. that is a best case plan. The worst case is heading for significantly more.

- all figures are based on conjecture. The great thing about stats is you can make them say whatever you want them to say. I work in an industry where there is no 'exact' figure and you have to estimate numbers and yields to produce. The better you are at it the better your company does.

- its educated guesses, which is much much different to pulling a figure out of thin air. I would bet my expenses are not far off. Infact, I bet they are a lot more than I have allowed for.

- you say some numbers are wrong. Please elaborate so I can improve the model (sources would be good - you notice I link to them)

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- a loss of 2m for 3 years is 6m. that is a best case plan. The worst case is heading for significantly more.

- all figures are based on conjecture. The great thing about stats is you can make them say whatever you want them to say. I work in an industry where there is no 'exact' figure and you have to estimate numbers and yields to produce. The better you are at it the better your company does.

- its educated guesses, which is much much different to pulling a figure out of thin air. I would bet my expenses are not far off. Infact, I bet they are a lot more than I have allowed for.

- you say some numbers are wrong. Please elaborate so I can improve the model (sources would be good - you notice I link to them)

I would never reveal my sources. You have done a lot of good and posted a lot of sensible stuff during this time. This is beginning to make you look bitter. Conjecture and eduacated guesses are two different things. Now even if you were right, £2mil loss in the first year is far from unsustainable. Do you really believe they will get less income or the same as the progress through the divisions? If they were running up debts that were more than their assets would cover then they will become unsustainable.

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I would never reveal my sources. You have done a lot of good and posted a lot of sensible stuff during this time. This is beginning to make you look bitter. Conjecture and eduacated guesses are two different things. Now even if you were right, £2mil loss in the first year is far from unsustainable. Do you really believe they will get less income or the same as the progress through the divisions? If they were running up debts that were more than their assets would cover then they will become unsustainable.

Their 'assets' are only worth 3m. Check the latest d&p report!

Would their income increase in SFL2 and 3? Not really - crowds can't really go up and tv money doesn't improve either. The 2m loss is a best case scenario. If they don't have 35k in the depths of winter they are in deep do-do. You then have to factor in the football debts (another 3m), lawyer fees (there will be a lot of those), agent fees (you think Sandaza's agent works for free?), and a host of other things they are going to have to pay. You can bet HMRC will be asking for PAYE in advance as well once they look at these numbers. Yes, they have the power to do this.

Bitter is a fairly strong word. Don't you think Rangers going bankrupt again would have quite a blow to Scottish football. It would almost certainly mean Rangers ceasing to exist as the SFA would not be able to get them in a second time. They would start in the juniors.

As much as I can't stand Rangers fans, a healthy, well run Rangers is a huge asset to Scottish football.

Please - if you disagree post something to show why, instead of just dismissing people out of hand.

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Their 'assets' are only worth 3m. Check the latest d&p report!

Would their income increase in SFL2 and 3? Not really - crowds can't really go up and tv money doesn't improve either. The 2m loss is a best case scenario. If they don't have 35k in the depths of winter they are in deep do-do. You then have to factor in the football debts (another 3m), lawyer fees (there will be a lot of those), agent fees (you think Sandaza's agent works for free?), and a host of other things they are going to have to pay. You can bet HMRC will be asking for PAYE in advance as well once they look at these numbers. Yes, they have the power to do this.

Bitter is a fairly strong word. Don't you think Rangers going bankrupt again would have quite a blow to Scottish football. It would almost certainly mean Rangers ceasing to exist as the SFA would not be able to get them in a second time. They would start in the juniors.

As much as I can't stand Rangers fans, a healthy, well run Rangers is a huge asset to Scottish football.

Please - if you disagree post something to show why, instead of just dismissing people out of hand.

So if Rangers decided to sell all their players, they'd only raise £3m? Not even taking into consideration other assests. I say shite! The wages you have put down are over the top and based on hearsay. The non-playing staff wages are based on what? You've not taken into consideration that they're will be significant savings in policing and stewarding costs. And I could go on but the point is you have made guesses that simply don't add up and even if they did it still wouldn't be a major issue. As I have said I applaud some the efforts you've gone to in the past but this is not you're best work.

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Please - if you disagree post something to show why, instead of just dismissing people out of hand.

he is good at doing that.

does he think hes a journo ' i would never reveal my sources' .sounds a right wally. living on planet armageddon.

stevensan don't be discouraged i find yer posts very interesting and enlightening.your doing the job most of the lazy seemingly old firm biased press and media should be doing.

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he is good at doing that.

does he think hes a journo ' i would never reveal my sources' .sounds a right wally. living on planet armageddon.

stevensan don't be discouraged i find yer posts very interesting and enlightening.your doing the job most of the lazy seemingly old firm biased press and media should be doing.

You're a sucker for a generalisation aren't you?

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So if Rangers decided to sell all their players, they'd only raise £3m? Not even taking into consideration other assests. I say shite! The wages you have put down are over the top and based on hearsay. The non-playing staff wages are based on what? You've not taken into consideration that they're will be significant savings in policing and stewarding costs. And I could go on but the point is you have made guesses that simply don't add up and even if they did it still wouldn't be a major issue. As I have said I applaud some the efforts you've gone to in the past but this is not you're best work.

Considering all these assets were recently purchased for around £5 million and some of the more high profile assets have gone out the door I'd say £3 million is about right, in the current market, for everything. Certianly can't be more than what Green paid a few weeks ago.

Unless you are saying that D&P sold everything a extreme knock down price and in reality they could have got way more in the open market for the assets in question. However on the face of it, and as D&P would have us believe, only Mr Green came forward with his cash so what makes you think someone is going to turn up and pay more than what Green paid for everything (i.e. your are implying that the market value for the assets is more than is being stated, for this to be the case somebody out there must be willing to pay more than Green, if so where were they when the sale was taking place)?

My last point is that no matter how much of a loss Rangers are set to make, who is going to give a new company/club, with so much dubiety surrounding it , any credit. You can't run up a debt if everyone asks for the money up front. Mr Green and his boys must see it being worth their while filling the perceived cash flow black hole for a few years until they are back in the big time.

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Apparently there are to be redundancies if they dont sell more season tickets. Thats nice. Pay players a fortune and office workers etc lose their jobs. These people you defend ODAB are scum who have not taken on board an ounce of going bust. And that came from fat sally before you accuse me of speculating.

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Considering all these assets were recently purchased for around £5 million and some of the more high profile assets have gone out the door I'd say £3 million is about right, in the current market, for everything. Certianly can't be more than what Green paid a few weeks ago.

Unless you are saying that D&P sold everything a extreme knock down price and in reality they could have got way more in the open market for the assets in question. However on the face of it, and as D&P would have us believe, only Mr Green came forward with his cash so what makes you think someone is going to turn up and pay more than what Green paid for everything (i.e. your are implying that the market value for the assets is more than is being stated, for this to be the case somebody out there must be willing to pay more than Green, if so where were they when the sale was taking place)?

My last point is that no matter how much of a loss Rangers are set to make, who is going to give a new company/club, with so much dubiety surrounding it , any credit. You can't run up a debt if everyone asks for the money up front. Mr Green and his boys must see it being worth their while filling the perceived cash flow black hole for a few years until they are back in the big time.

They'll get credit. And of course the assets can be more than what Green paid. Whilst I appreciate there are planning issues and the likes, but if it had been a completely open auction then more money could have been raised. Motherwell, Dundee and Livi all went through admin and kept their grounds. Surely they could have been sold to Tesco or the likes to raise more money for the creditors in those instances too?

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Apparently there are to be redundancies if they dont sell more season tickets. Thats nice. Pay players a fortune and office workers etc lose their jobs. These people you defend ODAB are scum who have not taken on board an ounce of going bust. And that came from fat sally before you accuse me of speculating.

Explain to me how I am defending them? In any shape or form please.

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Livis ground is owned by the council or it certainly was at the time of their last admin.

Fair enough. Was that as a result of the admin? If you look at the other cases and indeed admins down south, clubs tend to keep their ground. Surely in a lot of these occassion if the ground/land was sold in an open auction to the highest bidder, then more money would be raised for the creditors. However it would be a substantial deterant for any potential bidder for the club as an ongoing buisness.

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I can't say with absolute certainty, but I'm pretty sure they won't get credit.

I'm sure Dundee don't get credit and don't have an overdraft.

Any club that goes into administration is the same.

Which is why Motherwell were touted as one of the clubs in danger of 'armageddon' by some

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I can't say with absolute certainty, but I'm pretty sure they won't get credit.

I'm sure Dundee don't get credit and don't have an overdraft.

Any club that goes into administration is the same.

Which is why Motherwell were touted as one of the clubs in danger of 'armageddon' by some

They may not get it from a bank but somebody will provide funds for them. Whether it is director's loans or a deal ala the ticketus one.

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Still is.

The ground was never owned by Livingston FC. The Livingston Development Copertation helped fund it and the ownership was transferred to the council when the LDC's mandate ran out.

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They may not get it from a bank but somebody will provide funds for them. Whether it is director's loans or a deal ala the ticketus one.

And they both went well the last time!!!

An open ended director's loan, I can see, but no-one knows who the directors are and apparently 1 of the 30 million promised has materialised.

A Ticketus type deal is very, very doubtful. As all the companies that offer these type of deals will be well aware of the previous deal, so won't touch them with a barge pole

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And they both went well the last time!!!

An open ended director's loan, I can see, but no-one knows who the directors are and apparently 1 of the 30 million promised has materialised.

A Ticketus type deal is very, very doubtful. As all the companies that offer these type of deals will be well aware of the previous deal, so won't touch them with a barge pole

It was merely an example of how they could get "credit." As much as it is morally questionable, there is money to be made from Rangers at the moment provided you are prepared to take a risk and be patient.

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They'll get credit. And of course the assets can be more than what Green paid. Whilst I appreciate there are planning issues and the likes, but if it had been a completely open auction then more money could have been raised. Motherwell, Dundee and Livi all went through admin and kept their grounds. Surely they could have been sold to Tesco or the likes to raise more money for the creditors in those instances too?

Enough credit to off set their losses? Like I suggested the only way they'll get a cash boost is through an injection of money from one of Green's friends be it a loan via purchase of shares. This is probably what has been arranged behind closed doors in order to keep this new company/club going, probably not for the benefit of the club or the fans. Rangers fans should be asking where the money is coming from but as with Whyte before they don't care, they just want a man in a suit to tell them good news stories.

With regard to the value of the assets D&P, as suspicious as many people (including me) are about their behaviour, clearly stated the valuations in the CVA document.

I have to agree that I would have though they could have got more but only the liquidators can judge that and take any action the see fit. Until that happens all we can say for sure is that the market value a few weeks ago was around £5 million, some of the assets have walked so it can't be any more than was paid and is more than likely less. You can say they are worth more but without producing buyer willing to pay more that opinion would go wildly against the only facts we have to hand....unless one of your sources put in a £10 million bid but was told to beat it ;-)

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