Percy Johnston Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) I accept your point Joe but paradoxcially if Rangers had not been in Europe for the last few years the co-efficient would be higher not worse That's quite correct. At the risk of being called "seriously tiresome" again, here are some statistics:Rangers won only 1 of the final 25 games they ever played in European competitions.The current UEFA co-efficient takes into account the period beginning 2007-08. If Rangers' results were to be removed from the calculation, the current Scottish co-efficient would rise from 10.891 to 10.966 (which by my reckoning would mean that Saints would have scraped into becoming a seeded team in this season's Europa League )When the next coefficent is calculated (it takes into account matches since 2008-09), Scotland's co-efficient will fall - and that is mainly due to the dismal performances of Celtic and Rangers, who together have contributed only 8 wins out of the 51 European games they have played in the period. In the same period, the "diddies" have contributed 9 wins out of 38 games played. Yet another reason why Scottish football would be better off without the evil Glasgow twins. ETA - I should have acknowledged my sources - various anoraks erudite scholars on P&B Edited August 16, 2012 by Percy Johnston Jiangsu Sainty 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wish i was Joe McGurn Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 It wasn't put down too any other teams though as no one has done anything in Europe, maybe a away result for Aberdeen with Mackie scoring, forgot the opposition, Look further back and the roll on effect is there, two UEFA cup finals, more recently rangers, that led to where they were then, would of had a knock on effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mainstand Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 That's quite correct. At the risk of being called "seriously tiresome" again, here are some statistics:Rangers won only 1 of the final 25 games they ever played in European competitions.The current UEFA co-efficient takes into account the period beginning 2007-08. If Rangers' results were to be removed from the calculation, the current Scottish co-efficient would rise from 10.891 to 10.966 (which by my reckoning would mean that Saints would have scraped into becoming a seeded team in this season's Europa League )When the next coefficent is calculated (it takes into account matches since 2008-09), Scotland's co-efficient will fall - and that is mainly due to the dismal performances of Celtic and Rangers, who together have contributed only 8 wins out of the 51 European games they have played in the period. In the same period, the "diddies" have contributed 9 wins out of 38 games played. Yet another reason why Scottish football would be better off without the evil Glasgow twins. ETA - I should have acknowledged my sources - various anoraks erudite scholars on P&B How does that work. Surely if the team entering in their place had also been as bad then the coefficient would have been the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Johnston Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 It wasn't put down too any other teams though as no one has done anything in Europe, maybe a away result for Aberdeen with Mackie scoring, forgot the opposition, Look further back and the roll on effect is there, two UEFA cup finals, more recently rangers, that led to where they were then, would of had a knock on effect. Sorry Joe, but there isn't a "roll on effect" beyond four seasons ago - Rangers' 2007-08 UEFA Cup final in Manchester is now history as far as the club co-efficents are concerned. How does that work. Surely if the team entering in their place had also been as bad then the coefficient would have been the same? Well yes, but only IF the other team had also been as bad. I have a sneaking feeling that if a Dundee Utd or Hearts, say, from 2-3 seasons ago had played teams like Kaunas and Maribor, they might have beaten them. The overpaid EBT Ibrox 'superstars' of the time dismally underperformed, and as a result the Scottish club co-efficient dropped. The simple fact is that IF UEFA decided to remove Rangers results from the calculations (which of course is something they won't do, and perhaps quite rightly so), the Scottish club co-efficient would rise for the season after next. Anyway, it's all academic and I was only trying to explode yet another myth about how much Scottish football needs Rangers. We are better off in so many ways without them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mainstand Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 Sorry Joe, but there isn't a "roll on effect" beyond four seasons ago - Rangers' 2007-08 UEFA Cup final in Manchester is now history as far as the club co-efficents are concerned. Well yes, but only IF the other team had also been as bad. I have a sneaking feeling that if a Dundee Utd or Hearts, say, from 2-3 seasons ago had played teams like Kaunas and Maribor, they might have beaten them. The overpaid EBT Ibrox 'superstars' of the time dismally underperformed, and as a result the Scottish club co-efficient dropped. The simple fact is that IF UEFA decided to remove Rangers results from the calculations (which of course is something they won't do, and perhaps quite rightly so), the Scottish club co-efficient would rise for the season after next. Anyway, it's all academic and I was only trying to explode yet another myth about how much Scottish football needs Rangers. We are better off in so many ways without them. But the reason we got 2 in the Champions league in the first place was due to Celtic and Rangers both reaching EUFA cup finals, so you can't have it both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevensan Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 but the only ones to benefit from 2 champions league spots were Rangers and Celtic. If Rangers had been banned, and Scotland only had one place, our co-efficient now would have been the same or higher... it couldn't have been lower as Rangers results in Europe over the last 4 qualifying years have been terrible. Percy Johnston 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Johnston Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Mainstand, I have been agreeing with your posts on here for years, but for a normally sensible guy, you just don't get this particular issue, do you? Stevensan above explains it perfectly, so if you won't listen to me, please listen to him,. Gradually, we are all waking up to the fact that for decades, we have all (yes, including me) been locked inside the paradigm whereby we assumed/were told that the bigotry, backhanding and downright cheating of Rangers was something that we just had to thole, because without them the Scottish game would be wrecked financially. Now, as the facts emerge one by one, we are breaking free from that shackled way of thinking. And this is one of those facts (not a matter of opinion, a fact): in the case of European club co-effcients, Scottish football is better off without Rangers. That's all there is to it. And that's why this thread was started in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calypso Kid Posted August 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 We will never be without them. Even now, as the old club goes through the formalities of liquidation, we have a new club conning desperate people into believing it's the same club. By agreeing transfer of membership the SFA have made a rod for their own back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevensan Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 And this is one of those facts (not a matter of opinion, a fact): in the case of European club co-effcients, Scottish football is better off without Rangers. That's all there is to it. And that's why this thread was started in the first place. Someone asked earlier for the facts, so here they are: http://saintinasia.wordpress.com/2012/08/21/spl-without-rangers-and-how-it-affects-our-coefficient/ A few notes: 1) Perry is correct, if you maintain the bonus points for direct Champions League entry. 2) If you don't, the coefficient slightly suffers, although it has no bearing on the number of places, or the qualifying rounds Scottish clubs will play. So at worst we are in the same position without Rangers. At best we are better off. Those are the Facts. Percy Johnston 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Johnston Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Terrific analysis Stephen, many thanks. I hope it is widely read, and that it will help to shut up a few more of the "Scottish Football needs the Sevco Franchise" brigade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mainstand Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Someone asked earlier for the facts, so here they are: http://saintinasia.w...ur-coefficient/ A few notes: 1) Perry is correct, if you maintain the bonus points for direct Champions League entry. 2) If you don't, the coefficient slightly suffers, although it has no bearing on the number of places, or the qualifying rounds Scottish clubs will play. So at worst we are in the same position without Rangers. At best we are better off. Those are the Facts. Percy you have obviously goneinto this in great detail but, unless I have misread your calculations Your averages and thus the coefficient are calculated on one less team? but yu say i would not have had any impact on the teams competing. So for there to be no impact I would suggest you would need the team replacing them to achieve at least the same as Rangers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abernethy Saint Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Brilliant analysis by Saint in Asia, as always. I hope someone, somewhere is paying you for this. There's a living to be made fromthese skills.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indicator Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Percy you have obviously goneinto this in great detail but, unless I have misread your calculations Your averages and thus the coefficient are calculated on one less team? but yu say i would not have had any impact on the teams competing. So for there to be no impact I would suggest you would need the team replacing them to achieve at least the same as Rangers? You've missed your calling - you should be west coast media. http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferg Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Time for this thread to close? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mainstand Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 You've missed your calling - you should be west coast media. http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/ Oh god that is nearly as bad as Percy saying I was a Rangers fan I am obviously missing somethin but using the analysis that has been done and taking Dundee United or Motherwell out of the equation and leave rangers in you could post here how much the coefficient has increased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Johnston Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 I am obviously missing somethin Yes, you are. When in a hole, don't keep digging. Time for this thread to close? Yes, it probably is. But the battle for proper justice is nowhere near won, as yet. COYS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slf Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Time for this thread to close? why do you want this thread to close? are you hiding something you don't want disclosed? SanginSaint 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevensan Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Time for this thread to close? I wish.... there will be many more stories that come out, so unless another Mod wants to shut this, I'll leave it open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevensan Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Your averages and thus the coefficient are calculated on one less team? but yu say i would not have had any impact on the teams competing. So for there to be no impact I would suggest you would need the team replacing them to achieve at least the same as Rangers? Correct. They would need to achieve at least what Rangers achieved otherwise the ranking would go down. On the face of it Rangers got good points in 2 of the years, and removing them reduces the average. However, 4 of these points would have been awarded anyway each year for the Champions League qualification and they contributed next to no other points (10/11 withstanding). In the other seasons, notably last, and the 08/09 season Rangers contributed just 1.5 points over 2 seasons. It would have been almost impossible for any team to do worse. Now, lets just take the scenario that you have to replace Rangers with another team. Infact, lets just remove all points from all teams apart from Celtic - where then do we end up. The answer is with a coefficient of 7.1, which would have us in 36th place - 8 places lower than currently. The affect on our teams? Zilch. The same teams next season would line up. Did Rangers help Scotland achieve more places this season? Yes. Saints would not have been in Europe without their UEFA cup run to the final. Then again, if you removed all Rangers IA cheating for the last 10 years, how many times would we have achieved Europe, how much bigger would the crowds be at McDiarmid and how much a better place would Scottish Football be right now? It is all hyperthetical. The point I (and others such as Percy) are making is that the MSM theories of armegeddon couldn't be further from the truth. While they continue to peddle their lies the situation will get no better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mainstand Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Correct. They would need to achieve at least what Rangers achieved otherwise the ranking would go down. On the face of it Rangers got good points in 2 of the years, and removing them reduces the average. However, 4 of these points would have been awarded anyway each year for the Champions League qualification and they contributed next to no other points (10/11 withstanding). In the other seasons, notably last, and the 08/09 season Rangers contributed just 1.5 points over 2 seasons. It would have been almost impossible for any team to do worse. Now, lets just take the scenario that you have to replace Rangers with another team. Infact, lets just remove all points from all teams apart from Celtic - where then do we end up. The answer is with a coefficient of 7.1, which would have us in 36th place - 8 places lower than currently. The affect on our teams? Zilch. The same teams next season would line up. Did Rangers help Scotland achieve more places this season? Yes. Saints would not have been in Europe without their UEFA cup run to the final. Then again, if you removed all Rangers IA cheating for the last 10 years, how many times would we have achieved Europe, how much bigger would the crowds be at McDiarmid and how much a better place would Scottish Football be right now? It is all hyperthetical. The point I (and others such as Percy) are making is that the MSM theories of armegeddon couldn't be further from the truth. While they continue to peddle their lies the situation will get no better... Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Ferg Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Perhaps I should have said, "time for this thread to merge with the other Rangers' thread" as it no longer has any specific relevance to it's title?i Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Johnston Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Perhaps I should have said, "time for this thread to merge with the other Rangers' thread" as it no longer has any specific relevance to it's title?i Speaking as the person who titled this thread, I don't quite agree with you, Dave. It started as a call of action to the Chairman to take a particular course of action - one which (after a lot of prompting and some dodgy moments along the way) he eventually did take. So in that sense the thread has indeed run its course for now, but I think it should be left open, so that when there is once again a direct relevence to Saints and/or Steve Brown (for example, when/if the SPL clubs ever get to have a vote on the punishment to be doled out to the Ibrox cheats) we can take up the cause all over again, and remind the Chairman just how strongly the average Saints supporter feels about this issue. In the meantime, I am going to cease posting on this thread (cue mass sighs of relief) and transfer to "Ibrox latest" over on Fitba' Chat. Au revoir... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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