Calypso Kid

An open letter to St Johnstone Chairman Steve Brown

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I accept your point Joe but paradoxcially if Rangers had not been in Europe for the last few years the co-efficient would be higher not worse

That's quite correct. At the risk of being called "seriously tiresome" again, here are some statistics:

  • Rangers won only 1 of the final 25 games they ever played in European competitions.

  • The current UEFA co-efficient takes into account the period beginning 2007-08. If Rangers' results were to be removed from the calculation, the current Scottish co-efficient would rise from 10.891 to 10.966 (which by my reckoning would mean that Saints would have scraped into becoming a seeded team in this season's Europa League :evil: )

  • When the next coefficent is calculated (it takes into account matches since 2008-09), Scotland's co-efficient will fall - and that is mainly due to the dismal performances of Celtic and Rangers, who together have contributed only 8 wins out of the 51 European games they have played in the period. In the same period, the "diddies" have contributed 9 wins out of 38 games played.

Yet another reason why Scottish football would be better off without the evil Glasgow twins.

ETA - I should have acknowledged my sources - various anoraks erudite scholars on P&B

Edited by Percy Johnston

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It wasn't put down too any other teams though as no one has done anything in Europe, maybe a away result for Aberdeen with Mackie scoring, forgot the opposition, Look further back and the roll on effect is there, two UEFA cup finals, more recently rangers, that led to where they were then, would of had a knock on effect.

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That's quite correct. At the risk of being called "seriously tiresome" again, here are some statistics:

  • Rangers won only 1 of the final 25 games they ever played in European competitions.

  • The current UEFA co-efficient takes into account the period beginning 2007-08. If Rangers' results were to be removed from the calculation, the current Scottish co-efficient would rise from 10.891 to 10.966 (which by my reckoning would mean that Saints would have scraped into becoming a seeded team in this season's Europa League :evil: )

  • When the next coefficent is calculated (it takes into account matches since 2008-09), Scotland's co-efficient will fall - and that is mainly due to the dismal performances of Celtic and Rangers, who together have contributed only 8 wins out of the 51 European games they have played in the period. In the same period, the "diddies" have contributed 9 wins out of 38 games played.

Yet another reason why Scottish football would be better off without the evil Glasgow twins.

ETA - I should have acknowledged my sources - various anoraks erudite scholars on P&B

How does that work. Surely if the team entering in their place had also been as bad then the coefficient would have been the same?

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It wasn't put down too any other teams though as no one has done anything in Europe, maybe a away result for Aberdeen with Mackie scoring, forgot the opposition, Look further back and the roll on effect is there, two UEFA cup finals, more recently rangers, that led to where they were then, would of had a knock on effect.

Sorry Joe, but there isn't a "roll on effect" beyond four seasons ago - Rangers' 2007-08 UEFA Cup final in Manchester is now history as far as the club co-efficents are concerned.

How does that work. Surely if the team entering in their place had also been as bad then the coefficient would have been the same?

Well yes, but only IF the other team had also been as bad. I have a sneaking feeling that if a Dundee Utd or Hearts, say, from 2-3 seasons ago had played teams like Kaunas and Maribor, they might have beaten them. The overpaid EBT Ibrox 'superstars' of the time dismally underperformed, and as a result the Scottish club co-efficient dropped.

The simple fact is that IF UEFA decided to remove Rangers results from the calculations (which of course is something they won't do, and perhaps quite rightly so), the Scottish club co-efficient would rise for the season after next.

Anyway, it's all academic and I was only trying to explode yet another myth about how much Scottish football needs Rangers. We are better off in so many ways without them.

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Sorry Joe, but there isn't a "roll on effect" beyond four seasons ago - Rangers' 2007-08 UEFA Cup final in Manchester is now history as far as the club co-efficents are concerned.

Well yes, but only IF the other team had also been as bad. I have a sneaking feeling that if a Dundee Utd or Hearts, say, from 2-3 seasons ago had played teams like Kaunas and Maribor, they might have beaten them. The overpaid EBT Ibrox 'superstars' of the time dismally underperformed, and as a result the Scottish club co-efficient dropped.

The simple fact is that IF UEFA decided to remove Rangers results from the calculations (which of course is something they won't do, and perhaps quite rightly so), the Scottish club co-efficient would rise for the season after next.

Anyway, it's all academic and I was only trying to explode yet another myth about how much Scottish football needs Rangers. We are better off in so many ways without them.

But the reason we got 2 in the Champions league in the first place was due to Celtic and Rangers both reaching EUFA cup finals, so you can't have it both ways.

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but the only ones to benefit from 2 champions league spots were Rangers and Celtic. If Rangers had been banned, and Scotland only had one place, our co-efficient now would have been the same or higher... it couldn't have been lower as Rangers results in Europe over the last 4 qualifying years have been terrible.

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Mainstand, I have been agreeing with your posts on here for years, but for a normally sensible guy, you just don't get this particular issue, do you? Stevensan above explains it perfectly, so if you won't listen to me, please listen to him,.

Gradually, we are all waking up to the fact that for decades, we have all (yes, including me) been locked inside the paradigm whereby we assumed/were told that the bigotry, backhanding and downright cheating of Rangers was something that we just had to thole, because without them the Scottish game would be wrecked financially. Now, as the facts emerge one by one, we are breaking free from that shackled way of thinking.

And this is one of those facts (not a matter of opinion, a fact): in the case of European club co-effcients, Scottish football is better off without Rangers. That's all there is to it. And that's why this thread was started in the first place.

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We will never be without them. Even now, as the old club goes through the formalities of liquidation, we have a new club conning desperate people into believing it's the same club.

By agreeing transfer of membership the SFA have made a rod for their own back.

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And this is one of those facts (not a matter of opinion, a fact): in the case of European club co-effcients, Scottish football is better off without Rangers. That's all there is to it. And that's why this thread was started in the first place.

Someone asked earlier for the facts, so here they are:

http://saintinasia.wordpress.com/2012/08/21/spl-without-rangers-and-how-it-affects-our-coefficient/

A few notes:

1) Perry is correct, if you maintain the bonus points for direct Champions League entry.

2) If you don't, the coefficient slightly suffers, although it has no bearing on the number of places, or the qualifying rounds Scottish clubs will play.

So at worst we are in the same position without Rangers. At best we are better off.

Those are the Facts.

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Someone asked earlier for the facts, so here they are:

http://saintinasia.w...ur-coefficient/

A few notes:

1) Perry is correct, if you maintain the bonus points for direct Champions League entry.

2) If you don't, the coefficient slightly suffers, although it has no bearing on the number of places, or the qualifying rounds Scottish clubs will play.

So at worst we are in the same position without Rangers. At best we are better off.

Those are the Facts.

Percy you have obviously goneinto this in great detail but, unless I have misread your calculations

Your averages and thus the coefficient are calculated on one less team? but yu say i would not have had any impact on the teams competing.

So for there to be no impact I would suggest you would need the team replacing them to achieve at least the same as Rangers?

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Percy you have obviously goneinto this in great detail but, unless I have misread your calculations

Your averages and thus the coefficient are calculated on one less team? but yu say i would not have had any impact on the teams competing.

So for there to be no impact I would suggest you would need the team replacing them to achieve at least the same as Rangers?

You've missed your calling - you should be west coast media.

http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/

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You've missed your calling - you should be west coast media.

http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/

Oh god that is nearly as bad as Percy saying I was a Rangers fan :)

I am obviously missing somethin but using the analysis that has been done and taking Dundee United or Motherwell out of the equation and leave rangers in you could post here how much the coefficient has increased.

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Your averages and thus the coefficient are calculated on one less team? but yu say i would not have had any impact on the teams competing.

So for there to be no impact I would suggest you would need the team replacing them to achieve at least the same as Rangers?

Correct.

They would need to achieve at least what Rangers achieved otherwise the ranking would go down.

On the face of it Rangers got good points in 2 of the years, and removing them reduces the average. However, 4 of these points would have been awarded anyway each year for the Champions League qualification and they contributed next to no other points (10/11 withstanding).

In the other seasons, notably last, and the 08/09 season Rangers contributed just 1.5 points over 2 seasons. It would have been almost impossible for any team to do worse.

Now, lets just take the scenario that you have to replace Rangers with another team. Infact, lets just remove all points from all teams apart from Celtic - where then do we end up. The answer is with a coefficient of 7.1, which would have us in 36th place - 8 places lower than currently. The affect on our teams? Zilch. The same teams next season would line up.

Did Rangers help Scotland achieve more places this season? Yes. Saints would not have been in Europe without their UEFA cup run to the final. Then again, if you removed all Rangers IA cheating for the last 10 years, how many times would we have achieved Europe, how much bigger would the crowds be at McDiarmid and how much a better place would Scottish Football be right now?

It is all hyperthetical. The point I (and others such as Percy) are making is that the MSM theories of armegeddon couldn't be further from the truth. While they continue to peddle their lies the situation will get no better...

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Correct.

They would need to achieve at least what Rangers achieved otherwise the ranking would go down.

On the face of it Rangers got good points in 2 of the years, and removing them reduces the average. However, 4 of these points would have been awarded anyway each year for the Champions League qualification and they contributed next to no other points (10/11 withstanding).

In the other seasons, notably last, and the 08/09 season Rangers contributed just 1.5 points over 2 seasons. It would have been almost impossible for any team to do worse.

Now, lets just take the scenario that you have to replace Rangers with another team. Infact, lets just remove all points from all teams apart from Celtic - where then do we end up. The answer is with a coefficient of 7.1, which would have us in 36th place - 8 places lower than currently. The affect on our teams? Zilch. The same teams next season would line up.

Did Rangers help Scotland achieve more places this season? Yes. Saints would not have been in Europe without their UEFA cup run to the final. Then again, if you removed all Rangers IA cheating for the last 10 years, how many times would we have achieved Europe, how much bigger would the crowds be at McDiarmid and how much a better place would Scottish Football be right now?

It is all hyperthetical. The point I (and others such as Percy) are making is that the MSM theories of armegeddon couldn't be further from the truth. While they continue to peddle their lies the situation will get no better...

Cheers

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Perhaps I should have said, "time for this thread to merge with the other Rangers' thread" as it no longer has any specific relevance to it's title?i

Speaking as the person who titled this thread, I don't quite agree with you, Dave. It started as a call of action to the Chairman to take a particular course of action - one which (after a lot of prompting and some dodgy moments along the way) he eventually did take.

So in that sense the thread has indeed run its course for now, but I think it should be left open, so that when there is once again a direct relevence to Saints and/or Steve Brown (for example, when/if the SPL clubs ever get to have a vote on the punishment to be doled out to the Ibrox cheats) we can take up the cause all over again, and remind the Chairman just how strongly the average Saints supporter feels about this issue.

In the meantime, I am going to cease posting on this thread (cue mass sighs of relief) and transfer to "Ibrox latest" over on Fitba' Chat. Au revoir...

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