Saints and the False Gold of English Football

[soulfulsaint]

I want to offer up a comment which is not fully formed but which I'd like views on.

My contention is that English Football Clubs and especially their much-hyped academy systems are over-priced, over-rated and not always as 'glamorous' as we are led to believe by the shimmering wealth we see on Sky TV.

I would argue that Marcus Haber is a product of that system at WBA. He is a highly-priced young man has not proven to be any better a prospect than Stevie May who has scored many more goals in competitive football.

I have nightmares thinking back to the catastrophic first-half performance of the £1million plus player we took from Bolton/Wolves who was subbed inside twenty minutes at Falkirk. Or the not hugely impressive young man who played Champions League for Manchester United but struggled against Thistle. (Names deleted to underline how easy to forget they are.)

Our much loved new import from Spurs has not been a pre-emiment success yet either and was brought to the club because we needed under-age players that could play not just warm the bench. Liam Caddis was loaned out to allow this to happen.

But then again at the more developed end of the market Jody Morris and to a lesser extent Lee Croft have both brought real value.

And Maybury, McCracken and Sandaza all returned from England but with prior experience in the Scottish game. Only one is a Scot.

Are we being seduced by the false gold of the EPL and its young 'star-system'

[Jiangsu Sainty]

Marcus Haber is not a product of West Brom's youth setup

He signed for them and went out on loan one month later, and he technically never returned to West Brom, spending the entire rest of his time on their books out on loan.

So your argument is false on that front. He is a product of Vancouver Whitecaps, played for them 30 times in his first stint, and youtube has some clips of him playing some very nice flair football.

I appreciate he hasn't done much at Saints yet, but I have faith that if we can give him enough confidence he can become a good SPL dribbler, as well as being good in the air. Whether he will get a chance to get that confidence remains to be seen.

As for your argument, maybe.

Edit - a brief apology - I just went and watched the youtube videos I was referring to, and although I was impressed by them in those bright summer days of 2009, they look a lot like pub football now.

I still think he can come good though, one day

Edited May 17, 2012 by Jiangsu Sainty
removing pointless hyperbole

[Edstar101]

I don't watch that much football on telly. Have no interest in watching Bolton v Aston Villa for a full 90mins. I do however watch Match of the Day, where, obviously, you are getting the highlights and therefore sometimes an altered view of what the game was really like. Sometimes, watching Sportscene, if you imagine the goal that has just been scored had been scored in the Prem, then the reaction to it would be completely different. The stadium and crowd sizes add to the overall perception in my opinion.

Now, there can not be any doubt of course that the standard across the board is far superior. But, I think that the EPL is potentially overhyped. I have been to games down there and they have been dross.

[MySpazz]

ACADEMYS

When clubs establish "Centre of Excellence" Academy systems not only do they get a landing net for all local talent, they also get £1000s in grants from the government/local council.

Not least the grants which would have otherwise gone to a school.

Academys in England are really just sports colleges, and are like other educational establishments....they are as much about money as they are about the subject.

PLAYERS

Agreed: Haber is gash.

The Spurs guy.... who knows what he is like, never seen him!

[soulfulsaint]

ACADEMYS

The Spurs guy.... who knows what he is like, never seen him!

I have twice once in a desperate bid to get back at Hearts in the highly disputed cup game (No final for us on Sunday) and he brought a bit of pace. And three of the closing minutes at Parkhead where he fluffed his only touch. So not a lot to go on at all and ceratinly to early to pre-judge. But not a lot to get over-excited about either.

[Jiangsu Sainty]

I agree Kudus didn't look special when he came on.

It is true that at top teams there are youngsters who break through to the top team's first team, there are those who do well but maybe drop to the championship, and there are those who turn out not to be much and drop right down.

A youngster we get from a top team could be any one of these, if he was especially good then they would send him to the championship on loan and not us.

Being at a premiership club doesn't guarantee they will have a good future, but they will probably have more chance than our own youngsters (May excluded).

As such I would still like to keep getting players like that in.

Another side of the argument is that although you phrase it that Caddis was forced out on loan to make way for Kudus, why not see it that Kudus came in to allow Caddis to go out on loan.

Given that the u-21s who sit on the bench rarely get on the pitch, I would rather have our promising youngsters getting first team experience elsewhere, whilst we fill the bench with other teams players, players on who we lose nothing if they dont develop

[soulfulsaint]

Marcus Haber is categorically NOT a product of West Brom's youth setup

He signed for them and went out on loan one month later, and he technically never returned to West Brom, spending the entire rest of his time on their books out on loan.

So your argument is false on that front. He is a product of Vancouver Whitecaps, played for them 30 times in his first stint, and youtube has some clips of him playing some very nice flair football.

I appreciate he hasn't done much at Saints yet, but I have faith that if we can give him enough confidence he can become a good SPL dribbler, as well as being good in the air. Whether he will get a chance to get that confidence remains to be seen.

As for your argument, aside from the glaring Haber error, maybe.

My apologies for the glaring error Jiangsu but since he was always associated with West Brom in the media and by the small contingent of West Brom fans on this forum my glaring error has at least a basis in fact. He came to Saints from West Brom (Fact) and not Vancouver Whitecaps. WBA bought him as part of their scouting startegies, which are a by-product of the EPL scouting systems and more wealthily funded than we could dream of. I like him too but a bit disappointed he has not seized the day. If he had come from Forfar would we perhaps have been a bit more realistic about what he could achieve?

[Broon]

Said it all along. Considering the money they have, aside from the top six teams, their product is only decidedly average.

Bryson at Killie was named player of the year at Derby. He was nothing more than decent up here yet lee croft couldn't get in that team? There's nothing much in it.

[soulfulsaint]

I agree Kudus didn't look special when he came on.

Another side of the argument is that although you phrase it that Caddis was forced out on loan to make way for Kudus, why not see it that Kudus came in to allow Caddis to go out on loan.

Another very good point Jiangsu and wholly agree. One slight flaw in our agreement is that on performance to date, which are brief and fleeting, Caddis is more ready for first team action than Kudus.

[Jiangsu Sainty]

Another very good point Jiangsu and wholly agree. One slight flaw in our agreement is that on performance to date, which are brief and fleeting, Caddis is more ready for first team action than Kudus.

I'd agree with that fully, except that it isnt too much of a flaw in my opinion, at risk of looking too much on the brightside, although if Caddis is more ready than Kudus (apologies for not knowing the spelling of his surname), he is not as ready as Miller, Moon, etc. Therefore, whilst he is better than Kudus, he is still at a level where he would only be used sparingly in the SPL if we are trying to have our best 11 out on the pitch, and therefore is better getting lots of game time out on loan than the odd 5 mins in the SPL

Edited May 17, 2012 by Jiangsu Sainty

[john1962]

In my opinion English clubs apply a scattergun approach. If a boy can pass the ball five yards accurately then they sign him just in case. Sky money allows them to do this. One look at the top clubs in England gives an indication of how good their Academy's are. They dont have a huge amount of really top class players coming through.

The English love to believe their media who tell them they world beaters. Part of our problem is our media love to listen too.

[soulfulsaint]

The English love to believe their media who tell them they world beaters. Part of our problem is our media love to listen too.

[john1962]

Of course the most informed football show on the air is the exception.

[eltel]

Soulful and Jiangsu - I'm interested to know how often you have seen Caddis and Kudus play competive matches?

[Jiangsu Sainty]

Soulful and Jiangsu - I'm interested to know how often you have seen Caddis and Kudus play competive matches?

Saw Caddis make his debut 2 years ago and have seen every minute Kudus has been on the pitch in a competitive game for Saints.

Doesn't have much (any) bearing on the discussion, which is about whether the English leagues are over-rated, and then side-tracked onto the merits of loaning out our youngsters whilst loaning in others. Reading our posts I struggle to see how the merits of the two players is more than an aside

Edited May 17, 2012 by Jiangsu Sainty

[soulfulsaint]

Soulful and Jiangsu - I'm interested to know how often you have seen Caddis and Kudus play competive matches?

Seen all of Kudus and impressed by Caddis when I've seen him - which is only a couple of times and so not often. But as Jiangsu says the debate is whether we are prone to over-rating players who come with the 'false gold' of being associated with big English clubs. My view with reservations is yes. John agrees. And Jaingsu is less sure especially when there is a perceived slight against West Brom.

Edited May 17, 2012 by soulfulsaint

[john1962]

I know its slightly off but I remember Caddis playing at Ibrox in one of his first games and not at all looking out of place. Cant think of many other youngsters we have had looking that good in a game there. Certainly dont think any we have had come from England. I remember Sean McAuley coming from Man Utd, pretty sure we paid a big fee, and being excited about us signing a Man Utd youngster. He didnt, in my opinion, look that special. Scattergun approach and sell on to mugs because we think he must be a superstar because he plays at Old Trafford. I believe we actually tried to sign another and were told he wasnt for sale. It was either Scholes or Beckham if I remember correctly.

[Calypso Kid]

The English game is riddled with hype. It's one of the reasons their top club has about 26mill of tangible assets and half a billion £ of debt. It's a gluttonous circle of self-indulgence which will come crashing down around their heads in one way or another.

[Ronaldo]

I think the Premiership is the best league outside La Liga in Europe but it's not really English at the employee player level, just as the OF NI Protestant/Catholic Glasgow clubs are not Scottish.at the employee level. There are good players in the Championship evidenced by the fact that the three promoted clubs all did well and survived., and they were the most English clubs player wise in the league with Stoke.

The rest of England is like Scotland but with more bigger cities involved.

[slf]

england top league is awash with money.so they can mainly buy ready made players.

play the youngsters .

[eltel]

The English Football Academy system should be seen as a opportunity for rich pickings in my mind, not just from EPL but also lower league teams. That was one reason why I understood Lomas was appointed due to his contacts down south in this area? Kudus is a 19 year old kid who scores goals and the simple fact was he did not get an opportunity during his time in our first team squad. In contrast at Saints we do not even have a Football Academy and our Youth system in my view is in need of an overhaul

[soulfulsaint]

The English Football Academy system should be seen as a opportunity for rich pickings in my mind, not just from EPL but also lower league teams. That was one reason why I understood Lomas was appointed due to his contacts down south in this area?

This is the main reason I started the thread. One of the key differences between Coyle, McInnes and Lomas is their contact-pool. Coyle as a former Bolton player and a senior Scottish professional with a relatively high media profile and an extensive network; McIness for me was the best regularly playing in both English and Scottish leagues and with a very diverse set of former team-mates operating at a decent level; Lomas not bad on paper either - Northern Ireland internationalist with extensive English league experience and contacts at West Ham and Manchester City etc. Much poorer network here in Scotland and with no active league experience as a player.

So will he return to the gene pool of EPL youth academies - which I hope not?

Or possibly draw on his greater experience of Northern Ireland where to be honest talent is relatively thin and arguably not as rich or consistent as Scotland?

Or is there a great colleague out there who can deliver another couple of decent signings eg Jody, Duberry and Sandaza who all come from McInnes's network?

Thoughts?

[eltel]

It opens up a wider debate around 'Talent Identification' and I would split this in two. Firsty what can Lomas and his coaching/scouting team do in terms of spotting the quality of players we want, can afford, and how does he attract them to our club?

Secondly what is the plan for the younger players in terms of attraction/selection and retention amongst otehr important things?

A man once told me that typical World Class Athletes in all sports are made up of 70% Attitude and 30% skill. Food for thought!!

[john1962]

It opens up a wider debate around 'Talent Identification' and I would split this in two. Firsty what can Lomas and his coaching/scouting team do in terms of spotting the quality of players we want, can afford, and how does he attract them to our club?

Secondly what is the plan for the younger players in terms of attraction/selection and retention amongst otehr important things?

A man once told me that typical World Class Athletes in all sports are made up of 70% Attitude and 30% skill. Food for thought!!

90% perspiration 10% inspiration.

[st paddy]

A man once told me that typical World Class Athletes in all sports are made up of 70% Attitude and 30% skill. Food for thought!!

Jeezo. That pretty much describes Lomas as a player (omit the world class bit) and that was why I respected him as a player and was delighted when he became our manager.

If he can fill the side with average/slightly above average players with a desire to win and a commitment to give 100% every week, then I will be a happy bunny again. Whether he gets these from youth teams or the reserve side of EPL clubs is neither here nor there.

I can think of a few players who have come up to us with "enhanced expectations" and reputations because we had signed them from top flight or 2nd level english clubs. the majority of them were not any better than players we had. (as for those we signed from non league/bottom tiered clubs.... a couple of gems, but mainly dross)

I notice with interest a few clubs sending scouts to scandinavia again. Have we missed a trick?

And dont bother looking over here... nothing to see, move along.