Millwall Violence


541ntees
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@BlueHeaven - I recall two matches in particular back in the late 80s: Aberdeen at home, and lots of running about in the Dunkled Road, then United at home with running battles in the town.... days of Casuals. I was too young to be useful!

 

Tonight I will be at Millwall v Watford, in the away end (charged £26 v £15 for the home fans!)...... was arranged before they kicked off on Sat, let's see what the talk is down there tonight....

 

@BabyChunder - Horley are at Raynes Park tonight, you should go along. I would but...

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@BlueHeaven - I recall two matches in particular back in the late 80s: Aberdeen at home, and lots of running about in the Dunkled Road, then United at home with running battles in the town.... days of Casuals. I was too young to be useful!

 

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I think that's sort of the point I was making. That kind of thing belongs in the 80s - football's moved on since then and these guys are dinosaurs who have been left behind. That's why the "6-8 punch-ups" thing isn't insignificant: you just don't see people acting like that at modern football matches. I actually can't remember seeing more than one - possibly two - fights at football matches in all the time I've been going to football (since 1989). That includes matches all over Scotland, up and down all the divisions in England and also abroad. It's just not a part of football any more.

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I think that's sort of the point I was making. That kind of thing belongs in the 80s - football's moved on since then and these guys are dinosaurs who have been left behind. That's why the "6-8 punch-ups" thing isn't insignificant: you just don't see people acting like that at modern football matches. I actually can't remember seeing more than one - possibly two - fights at football matches in all the time I've been going to football (since 1989). That includes matches all over Scotland, up and down all the divisions in England and also abroad. It's just not a part of football any more.

 

I started following Saints in the mid 80s and witnessed many acts of violence in those early years,Muirton was a very intimidating place for any away fan,but so were many many other grounds around Scotland. There will be plenty fellas who could tell you many tales of Ayr Utd,Dundee,Raith,Montrose,Airdrie,Morton,Arbroath,St Mirren,the Glasgow clubs,Aberdeen and lots lots more,including international games.Im not promoting football hooligans but it has always been part of football culture.You are very correct in saying that it was at its height during late 70's then through the 80's.

Im not posting this as some sort of arguement with ya Blueheaven but hooliganism just hasnt went away.Your last sentence saying it isnt part of football anymore isnt quite accurate,certainly it has been few and far between in recent years but that has been down to the fact of better policing,harsher sentences along with banning orders,this has pushed the outbursts of fighting away from the grounds.Young thugs are now getting involved alongside some of the older guys (some of these older fellas are bringing along their own kids who are now late teens and upwards) Recent cases going through court in Scotland that i can recall are Dundee,Falkirk,Hibs,Hamilton,Aberdeen,St Mirren and even Dunfermline

 

The Millwall scenario that we have witnessed recently was well over the top,drunken idiots acting like animals around kids and families,when confronted they lashed out. To go on and attack the police is nothing but jailbait,im sure many of them would have been known to the police already thanks to football intelligence.The scenes from the Newcastle fans was just as stupid,why act so violent when you have the worlds press filming you,it doesnt make you a hardman it makes you a candidate for a jail sentence !!!!

Edited by chips
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I started following Saints in the mid 80s and witnessed many acts of violence in those early years,Muirton was a very intimidating place for any away fan,but so were many many other grounds around Scotland. There will be plenty fellas who could tell you many tales of Ayr Utd,Dundee,Raith,Montrose,Airdrie,Morton,Arbroath,St Mirren,the Glasgow clubs,Aberdeen and lots lots more,including international games.Im not promoting football hooligans but it has always been part of football culture.You are very correct in saying that it was at its height during late 70's then through the 80's.

Im not posting this as some sort of arguement with ya Blueheaven but hooliganism just hasnt went away.Your last sentence saying it isnt part of football anymore isnt quite accurate,certainly it has been few and far between in recent years but that has been down to the fact of better policing,harsher sentences along with banning orders,this has pushed the outbursts of fighting away from the grounds.Young thugs are now getting involved alongside some of the older guys (some of these older fellas are bringing along their own kids who are now late teens and upwards) Recent cases going through court in Scotland that i can recall are Dundee,Falkirk,Hibs,Hamilton,Aberdeen,St Mirren and even Dunfermline

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Sure, I'd agree that it's not something that's been completely eradicated - to say it's not a part of football at all is an exaggeration on my part. And I think there's the constant risk of it coming back if the various authorities don't keep their efforts going. But it's nonetheless something that I haven't really experienced anything of in almost 25 years of going to football matches. That's why I found it unusual for the earlier poster to suggest that "6-8 punch-ups" within an area of the stadium was in some way insignificant.

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The violence is still there lurking. It will come out if the circumstances permit. Poor policing, scheduling in a way that allows too much drink, wind-ups from fans beforehand, full moon etc. There are still plenty "dinosaurs" out there. If I'm attacked or spat on or abused by rival fans, or threatened, or my kids put in danger at a game, or harassed by the polis or trampled by their horses - I'm going to come out punching. That makes me a T.Rex I suppose?

Edited by babychunder
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@BlueHeaven - I recall two matches in particular back in the late 80s: Aberdeen at home, and lots of running about in the Dunkled Road, then United at home with running battles in the town.... days of Casuals. I was too young to be useful!

 

Tonight I will be at Millwall v Watford, in the away end (charged £26 v £15 for the home fans!)...... was arranged before they kicked off on Sat, let's see what the talk is down there tonight....

 

@BabyChunder - Horley are at Raynes Park tonight, you should go along. I would but...

I'm in North England the now, working, or I would have gone. I've seen the pics from their trip to Guernsey, Ali's pole dancing...
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if they were known to police intel,how come they got in,a semi final to boot?

Not all football thugs are on banning orders, plenty are/will be known to the police. Im throwing in a guess here, but it would have been much easier for the football intel group to monitor the hooligans while they were contained within the ground rather than having them roam the streets and pubs around the area.As already stated,there is more football violence happening away from the grounds now,fights within stadiums do not occur much in this day and age.A few Millwall thugs on the piss (and reputedly cocaine) find themselves with no opposition to fight,so give them a little spark e.g. a father and friends looking after the young girl,thats enough for them to respond with fists.How much more violence would have occured if they were out roaming the streets in small groups,the police would have had a hellova job keeping on top of it thats for sure.

Nothing worse than seeing innocent supporters getting caught up in undeserved violence,more so when there are women and kids in amongst it.

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On a lighter note.

 

At Millwall tonight, there was no sign of violence. Infact the Watford fans gave a few renditions of

 

"Gonna fight in a minute, you're gonna fightttttt innnnna minute!"

"2-0 and fight yourselves, 2-0 and you fight yourselves"

 

and whenever the crowd got a bit shouty the watford lot started the old school classic:

"Fight, Fight, Fight...."

 

Here is what the Den looks like in the spring sun

http://media.share.pho.to/1rukN/02011030_o.png

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The violence is still there lurking. It will come out if the circumstances permit. Poor policing, scheduling in a way that allows too much drink, wind-ups from fans beforehand, full moon etc. There are still plenty "dinosaurs" out there. If I'm attacked or spat on or abused by rival fans, or threatened, or my kids put in danger at a game, or harassed by the polis or trampled by their horses - I'm going to come out punching. That makes me a T.Rex I suppose?

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If "come out punching" is your automatic response to all of the above then, in my personal opinion, yes. The vast majority of people at football matches wouldn't behave in that way.

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I totally agree that there is no place in the modern game for violence. However, in days gone by, I remember sometimes you had to fight just to get from the ground back to the bus!! Ayr in particular springs to mind.

 

There is a difference between setting out with the mindset of looking for / causing trouble and getting caught up in trouble. Although most of the instances babychunder refers to do not warrant throwing your fists around, I can't say what I would do if anybody put my son in danger

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Was at Sunderland v Middlesborough about 4/5 years back and full scale riot in the away end as about 40 Sunderland lads went into the Middlesborough end, made the millwall incident look very low key.

 

Also in Edinburgh in last few years been pretty heavy duty when Sunderland and Leeds have played pre season friendlies, and last year down at bottom of Easter Road Hearts and Hibs were involved in shenagins

 

Like Ed says above usually involves those looking for trouble but you can get caught up if at the wrong place at the wrong time, and anyone thinking its a thing of the past are kidding themselves, I'm taking my kids to London to England/Scotland game, just want to see Wembley and enjoy the game etc, but will be on my guard as that has the potential to turn nasty,

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If "come out punching" is your automatic response to all of the above then, in my personal opinion, yes. The vast majority of people at football matches wouldn't behave in that way.

Funny who when you're a mod you get magic powers to speak for the vast majority. Can't think of anyone who would let their kid be out under threat without fighting back. You must be a keyboard warrior.

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Funny who when you're a mod you get magic powers to speak for the vast majority. Can't think of anyone who would let their kid be out under threat without fighting back. You must be a keyboard warrior.

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Not sure what being a mod has got to do with it. I don't claim to speak for the vast majority, but I do have "magic powers" to observe what people are doing and notice that they're not all running around thumping each other because they've been wound up by opposition fans or trampled on by horses. And I don't have a child, but if I did and that child was in some vague, non-specific form of "danger" then my immediate priority would be to remove the child from that danger.

 

I'm not any sort of warrior, although I suppose a keyboard would make a reasonable weapon if I had to defend a child from a horse (or do one of the other many dangerous things which apparently surround us all at football matches).

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If "come out punching" is your automatic response to all of the above then, in my personal opinion, yes. The vast majority of people at football matches wouldn't behave in that way.

 

I think you are taking this moral stance too far, and these are not even football questions. Taking Babychunder's comments of being spat in the face or having family threatened, it doesn't matter where you are or what you are doing, you are not going to turn the other cheek. The fact that this happened at a Millwall game to a family is not the point, it could have happened to a family at a supermarket or the pictures, same result.

 

The scum here are ONLY the 'fans' that started this, not the family that tried to defend themselves or were rightly upset if their kids were knocked over. The only football issue is that it happened in a stadium instead of village fete and that the police and stewards response was non existent.

 

I think the bigger question is the police reaction. Millwall obviously have a history of attacking police, so rather than try and help fix the situation, protect the general public, the old bill thought  '**** it, let them fight, we will arrest them all next week with the video footage"  - this would concern me more than the violence itself, which could happen anywhere, and this poor family had no-where to go, unless they give up their seats and 100's of quid they probably spent on the game.

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Err...your post above says "the vast majority of people at football matches wouldn't behave that way". That's what I mean when I say you are claiming to speak for the vast majority.

Trying to marginalise a dissenting opinion by pretending there are more people who side with you is a tactic of scoundrels like politicians. Even if more people side with your point of view than mine, I am not afraid of being in a minority because I think for myself rather than following the latest politically correct or fashionable position on things.

Nemo me impune lacessit.

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Err...your post above says "the vast majority of people at football matches wouldn't behave that way". That's what I mean when I say you are claiming to speak for the vast majority.

Trying to marginalise a dissenting opinion by pretending there are more people who side with you is a tactic of scoundrels like politicians. Even if more people side with your point of view than mine, I am not afraid of being in a minority because I think for myself rather than following the latest politically correct or fashionable position on things.

Nemo me impune lacessit.

 

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I'm not claiming to speak for the vast majority. To clarify, the reason I can say the vast majority of people wouldn't behave like that, is simply because the vast majority of people don't behave like that. It's something you'll hardly ever, ever see at a football match. It's not about "political correctness", and I have no problem with people's opinion being in a minority. It's got nothing to do with that. It's based purely on observation - the observation that the vast majority of football fans manage to attend matches without punching people.

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I'm not claiming to speak for the vast majority. To clarify, the reason I can say the vast majority of people wouldn't behave like that, is simply because the vast majority of people don't behave like that. It's something you'll hardly ever, ever see at a football match. It's not about "political correctness", and I have no problem with people's opinion being in a minority. It's got nothing to do with that. It's based purely on observation - the observation that the vast majority of football fans manage to attend matches without punching people.

Utter mince. There are probably hundreds of millions of football fans out there. How many have you seen turning the other cheek under the sort of provocations I mention? A few dozen. A hundred. A million? I bet it isn't a vast majority. Come back and tell us your OPINION when you've had some kids and can relate.

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:roll:

 

 

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I'm not claiming to speak for the vast majority. To clarify, ................. the vast majority .........., .because the vast majority ....................... I have no problem with people's opinion being in a minority. ........................... the observation that the vast majority

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