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rik2304

Yes Or Naw?

  

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Don't always agree with Galloway, but he pretty much nails it for me.  Far from ridding us of Tories, we may well be stuck with them for a long, long time.....on both sides of the border!

 

 

I'm not entirely sure George Galloway is sane.  Would you agree with him that an independent Scotland would be an Orange Scotland and that Catholic's would become a scapegoat for every failure?  These are his words.

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As a dundonian George Galloway,s credentials would always be dodgy. However Smarmy can I refer you to Tom Devine eminent historian who points out that amongst the Catholic population of Scotland independence has never been more popular. He also goes on to question GG,s basis for his views which seem plucked out of the air. Can I also say good post by Ali91 setting out coherent views on his reasons for voting, this vote is about the future of our young people.

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Surprised and disappointed that, as an exile, I am not allowed a vote. Ok, I made a choice to leave when I joined up to serve my Queen and country but that country was Scotland, part of a United Kingdom. I see no reason why this union should not continue but feel that I should have been given the opportunity to express my opinion, just like incomers can, who have made the reverse journey that I did and now live in a place other than that of their birth.

I have no idea what is to be gained by independence and, quite frankly, don't get it. I especially don't understand the amount of bile eminating from some of those in the Yes side towards those on the opposite side. It reminds me of Belfast and Berlin.

That's my opinion for what it's worth.

 

Belfast or Berlin?  More Better Together soundbites?

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Naw. :razz:

 

vote yes and you will have tories at both sides of the border ghostie according to smarmy dab and dod galloway :idea:

Don't always agree with Galloway, but he pretty much nails it for me.  Far from ridding us of Tories, we may well be stuck with them for a long, long time.....on both sides of the border!

oh wait, dod also says all the business will run off to england because of a left wing government up here, covering all angles of FEAR.

 

He made more sense being a cat in celebrity big brother, i would post video evidence of dod the cat making some sense, but the since the forum changed a while back it wont let me post videos. he is a total bell-end.

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The privatisation of cash guzzling industries (although in the end this policy was taken too far) the curbing of the powers of the unions who were running roughshod over the country (and therefore the working man) to name 2.

 

 

How much subsidies do we give to Rail companies

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If yes, I/ll need a passport to cross the border as Scotland will be outside the EU :laugh:

 

Only one question that if it goes tits up, Eck will have his fat Westminster pension as well as the FM one = so he will be awlright. 

 

If you vote yes, you will have to live with it, so cojones are required.

 

If no, get more powers fur the Scots Parly?

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Looking at the poll results it's time to form Saints For Yes !

 

It's a simple choice. Do you want to live in a country that values education, health and social justice or a country that wants to be involved in wars, houses nuclear weapons and introduces policies to target the poorest and most vulnerable in our society? 

 

Looking at the polls down south we can look forward to a Boris/Farage partnership at WM next year. 

 

The media bias is frightening but thankfully the grass roots campaign for Yes is doing a magnificient job which will secure independence.

 

Not heard a convincing argument for No yet..

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On your head be it. You say it is not a vote for Salmond but he will be the first President or Dictator when the day dawns.

_____________________

From what I can gather he'd only be the leader of an independent Scotland for a couple of months before there is a general election. Could be worse, it could be Boris.

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On your head be it. You say it is not a vote for Salmond but he will be the first President or Dictator when the day dawns.

How is Salmond a dictator? I've heard this before and I'm genuinely interested how you can call a democratically elected First Minister a dictator?

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How is Salmond a dictator? I've heard this before and I'm genuinely interested how you can call a democratically elected First Minister a dictator?

 

It's just personalisation of politics, so play the man rather than the ball.  Salmond's motivation is only for personal glory and power, etc.  So if his motivation is wrong, then the whole idea of Scottish independence must be wrong.  Like alleging that Darling defrauded the taxpayer...oh hold on ;)

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I'm not entirely sure George Galloway is sane.  Would you agree with him that an independent Scotland would be an Orange Scotland and that Catholic's would become a scapegoat for every failure?  These are his words.

 

As a dundonian George Galloway,s credentials would always be dodgy. However Smarmy can I refer you to Tom Devine eminent historian who points out that amongst the Catholic population of Scotland independence has never been more popular. He also goes on to question GG,s basis for his views which seem plucked out of the air. Can I also say good post by Ali91 setting out coherent views on his reasons for voting, this vote is about the future of our young people.

As I made a point of saying, I do not agree with GG on everything and his views on sectarianism in Scotland appear to be 30 years out of date.  Totally agree Pringles that he could not live with Devine in any such discussion. That said, and related to this question, is the effect the break up of the Union on the province of Ulster, (our closest cultural cousins?) where the demographics point to a marked narrowing of the Unionist majority....both sides within the Ulster divide have certainly demonstrated they are 'up for it' so to speak and it could get very ugly indeed.

 

GG's position on the economics and politics of iScotland are less easy to dismiss.  An iScotland will effectively declare a trade war with the rUK and when the Nationalist Party of Scotland take control...and they will...... they will continue with their austerity fueled neo-liberal tax cutting agenda exerting a downward pressure on welfare, health, education as well as the pay and conditions for the low paid and vulnerable.  IMO........ a probable scenario could be a narrow Yes victory followed quickly by a narrow Miliband victory in rUK.  Miliband's government will be a lame duck from the off, as they will lose their majority within 2 years into a parliament.  This will do enormous damage to the labour movement (in its broadest terms) and to progressive forces in the rUK and may well be perfect conditions for populist right wingers (Boris and Farage) to play hardball with succession negotiations and with the rights and aspirations of ordinary people on both sides of the newly erected border. (and god help minorities in that scenario!)

 

The UK has not elected a majority Tory government in a generation, they have received fewer votes at each election since the 80's and whole regions across the British Isles have consistently rejected the Tories.  Fracturing the progressive forces across these island will benefit the Tories in the short, medium and long term.   I am skeptical regarding the progressive intentions of an iScotland.  Without question the greens and socialists have been recruited by Salmond and Yes as crusaders for their vainglorious venture, but I suspect they will be quickly marginalised and the fiscal success of an iScotland will usurp any notions of egalitarianism, being 'independent' of Westminster will not leave Scotland independent of the brutalising forces of neo-liberal economics.  My politics are certainly of the left but I am unconvinced this constitutional change will bring such progress any closer, indeed the populist right are on the march across the continent and Scotland is no different. 

Edited by Smarmy Arab

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Long post, need to get dinner going so not too detailed points.  I assume you're writing about what GG has said?  If yes, trade war, heard him banging on about this before, it's a nonsense.  He's on about the so-called "race-to-the-bottom" where Scotland cuts taxes to get business, then rUK cuts taxes, and so on and so on.  If there were any validity to this claim the UK would have been in a "trade war" with Ireland for the last 30 years or so.  This race-to-the-bottom is a theory that emerged in the 80s and can be shown not to have happened, discredited theory.  The rest of his economic points follow from this point so are not valid.

 

UK progressive forces, there is little/no space in UK politics for progressives, the system is simply broken, unfit for purpose.  If it were a parrot it would be nailed to it's perch.  It's locked into a 2 choice option, Tory and Labour, would anybody describe either party as progressive?  Nobody would describe Tories as so, Labour's record in the last 20 years doesn't suggest a progressive party.  In fact, the only race-to-the-bottom is Labour and Tories race to see who's hardest in cutting support for the most vulnerable in society.  Lib Dems, irrelevant, they've done nothing to moderate the Tories in the coalition, they will be lucky to have 10 MPs in next Cessminster election.  There's no other options out there, UKIP won't get a significant vote outside of EU election protests.  Boris terrifies me much more than Farage.  Scotland in or out of the Union, he will lead Tories into government, and be PM for at least 2 terms, I won't detail how much that thought makes my balls shrink.

 

At least in an "iScotland", we already have a political structure in place, i.e. a form of proportional representation as opposed to first-past-the-post, that should allow a little more variety in our politics.  In reality, you are much more likely to see coalition governments, that creates a space for the progressives to consistently influence government.  I can see that up here in Finland, and I'm sure others can confirm for other Nordic countries.  The right has a voice up here, but they will never have power.  The main Finnish party of the right would be considered to be the left of Labour at the moment.  Consensus politics rule the day, that should be the goal in Scotland.  We have a party called Perus Suomalaiset (translated as True Finns), who range at their extremes far into BNP territory and beyond.  They had an EU election result similar to UKIP's a few years ago, but it hasn't translated into parliamentary seats.

 

Sorry, kids are screaming and I need to cook, post has rambled but I didn't want to simply write George is wrong after you obviously spent time on your post :)

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If the economic argument isn't there then everything else becomes a secondary consideration, unfortunately. You can't redistribute wealth if you aren't creating it in the first place and unfortunately I don't believe the economic argument supports independence. Scotland will use the pound, but it is worth understanding that the Pound isn't an asset to share, it's a medium of exchange and the measure by which the value of assets are measured. It's like claiming it's "Scotland's litre". There is a world of difference between using a currency and having a currency. I think threatening to renege on Scotland's share of the debt is short sighted and a threat to no one but the people of Scotland as it will send interest rates up. rUK can probably afford to take the extra debt as it has a central bank to back it, iScotland would not. Scotland can desire a CU as much as it likes but it's for the rUK to desire a CU to make it happen, and there is no desire in rUK for a CU. Given such a weak basis from the off I can't see how the economy will do anything other than struggle. Scotland may well cope, but that's not quite the same thing as prospering.

Scotland can desire a different political landscape, a change to social care, and all the other things but if there isn't the economy to support such moves then it is dead in the water. I don't see why there are no social changes which can be made effective in Scotland which can't be done UK-wide, I want to see a better political system but I want to see it on the largest scale possible. I see no issue with pooling resources and sharing rewards and I would rather see us get back to that than turn our back on it.

Either way I will still support Saints on 19th September and remember 17th May 2014 as one of the greatest days of my life.

In Tommy Wright We Trust.

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