Armed Forces Day


Brogan
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Also, just to add that my grandad fought in World War II and would not have wanted to see any hint of a jingoistic celebration.

No doubt some others of his generation would be in favour of it, but I think it's quite shameful that some people presume to take offence on behalf of a diverse group, when really what they are presenting is their own agenda.

That second part is exactly what is happening across so many different issues. It's pathetic, mostly, when people force their agenda on others.

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I've no strong views either way but why stop at football matches? We could do this with schools, pubs, anywhere...the local shopping centre..or that carpark which creating a big row about payment.

I have found that this country is drifting towards the US way of worshipping the military. The military there are offered discounts buying cars etc, cheap flights. NCIS is the US's prime time telly and most popular programme as well.

The European model has always been to keep it in the background such as Rememberance day etc and thats the way I prefer. Most of the old blokes who served; either in a war or via National Service would probably concur.

 

NCIS LA is pretty damn good telly to be fair! Not so keen on the other ones although I wouldn't say no to a night partying with the tattoo'd, pierced lab tech in the original version!

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  • 4 weeks later...

Just read in the Courier that Ten St Johnstone players died in WW1.

If the Courier says this, it's disingenous.

After the war St Johnstone noted that five 'members' of the club had lost their lives during the war: 'Ecky' Halkett, Bert Sampson, Charles Scott, David McWalter and John Cameron*. But only two - McWalter and Cameron - were St Johnstone players at the outbreak. There were another couple of ex-players added to the list later.

I'm not mentioning this to play down loss of life. But it's important to recognise why a club like Hearts make a big thing out of their losses in the First World War and why we should be careful not to inflate St Johnstone's losses to match theirs. Hearts lost so many of their players because most of their first team volunteered at the outset of the war. No St Johnstone player, as far as I'm aware, did. 

 

* John Cameron deserves recognition for another act of amazing pre-war bravery, which I've never seen mentioned by the club.

Edited by Brogan
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Just want to put a lid on this.

Forces day was brilliantly observed and moving; well done Saints, anyone who had a loved one fallen or a member of family to remember would have appreciated.

To anyone who has chipped in on this tread and used some pathetic political line about why we are remebering those who have served or gave up the greatest sacrafice- hang your head in shame you bunch of assholes!

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To anyone who has chipped in on this tread and used some pathetic political line about why we are remebering those who have served or gave up the greatest sacrafice- hang your head in shame you bunch of assholes!

The thread has been conducted in a grown up, sensible manner, this post is completely uncalled for. There were articulate and well thought out reasons behind people's views, just because they happen to disagree with yours doesn't make them an arsehole and suggesting it does reflects on you more than them to be honest. Incidentally I don't think anybody suggested not remembering those who died in the wars either. Just an all round ridiculous post. 

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If the Courier says this, it's disingenous.

After the war St Johnstone noted that five 'members' of the club had lost their lives during the war: 'Ecky' Halkett, Bert Sampson, Charles Scott, David McWalter and John Cameron*. But only two - McWalter and Cameron - were St Johnstone players at the outbreak. There were another couple of ex-players added to the list later.

I'm not mentioning this to play down loss of life. But it's important to recognise why a club like Hearts make a big thing out of their losses in the First World War and why we should be careful not to inflate St Johnstone's losses to match theirs. Hearts lost so many of their players because most of their first team volunteered at the outset of the war. No St Johnstone player, as far as I'm aware, did. 

 

* John Cameron deserves recognition for another act of amazing pre-war bravery, which I've never seen mentioned by the club.

The Courier report may be mistaken but I don't see how you can claim it to be disingenuous.  

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The thread has been conducted in a grown up, sensible manner, this post is completely uncalled for. There were articulate and well thought out reasons behind people's views, just because they happen to disagree with yours doesn't make them an arsehole and suggesting it does reflects on you more than them to be honest. Incidentally I don't think anybody suggested not remembering those who died in the wars either. Just an all round ridiculous post. 

Let me think about this.......

Asshole!

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If the Courier says this, it's disingenous.

After the war St Johnstone noted that five 'members' of the club had lost their lives during the war: 'Ecky' Halkett, Bert Sampson, Charles Scott, David McWalter and John Cameron*. But only two - McWalter and Cameron - were St Johnstone players at the outbreak. There were another couple of ex-players added to the list later.

I'm not mentioning this to play down loss of life. But it's important to recognise why a club like Hearts make a big thing out of their losses in the First World War and why we should be careful not to inflate St Johnstone's losses to match theirs. Hearts lost so many of their players because most of their first team volunteered at the outset of the war. No St Johnstone player, as far as I'm aware, did. 

 

* John Cameron deserves recognition for another act of amazing pre-war bravery, which I've never seen mentioned by the club.

Stick tae the PA then. Its not a "LEAGUE"  about who lost the most Players /Fans.!" FFS.

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I personally thought it was very moving with appropriate tunes from the pipe band and some very moving words from the forces reps.Never saw any "free-loaders in uniform" in the West stand.The minutes silence was perfectly observed and then the match kicked off.A fine tribute to the fallen and I for one am glad the club will be collaborating with the War Graves Commission on an annual basis.

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Just want to put a lid on this.

Forces day was brilliantly observed and moving; well done Saints, anyone who had a loved one fallen or a member of family to remember would have appreciated.

To anyone who has chipped in on this tread and used some pathetic political line about why we are remebering those who have served or gave up the greatest sacrafice- hang your head in shame you bunch of assholes!

55981697.jpg

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On a lighter note, just watched the cenataph thing. There was a shot of the politicos during the Brit national anthem, Cameron singing with great gusto and Corbyn and Robertson mouthing silently through gritted teeth. Hilarious. Useless fact #1,768 - GB is one of only two countries in the world who's national anthem doesn't bother to mention the ummm nation.

Too much God and Empire stuff, but some very moving accounts from vets and bereaved parents. Seeing relatively young women talking about their dead children killed in one of Blair's wars is a hundred times more moving than the silly flags and songs.

Glad to hear the McD stuff was done tastefully and well.

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The Courier report may be mistaken but I don't see how you can claim it to be disingenuous.  

Because The Courier isn’t mistaken if its definition of ‘St Johnstone player’ is applied at it’s loosest and includes all former players. Similarly ‘in WW1’ would have to include those who didn’t die in the front line.

I say it’s disingenuous because the phrase ’ten St Johnstone players died in WW1’ to my mind lends a misleading impression to the uninformed person that these were current players and that, like Hearts, we lost virtually an entire team of volunteers in the trenches. That isn’t true, but it leads to the sort of misconception that has already arisen in this forum.

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I’ve just come back – ironically from a moving remembrance service – to read the latest in this thread.

Can I repeat: no-one here has attempted to belittle remembrance. I only questioned holding an armed forces day at a football match, and worried that remembrance events were becoming ostentatiously trivialised and militarised. Yesterday's events only strengthened my views.

In particular, the War Graves section at half-time showed how far remembrance can be hollowed of meaning. A list of locals whose Wellshill graves were maintained by the War Graves Commission was read out by children, along with the men’s rank and number. They were lauded as soldiers who had paid the ultimate sacrifice and were euphemistically described as ‘the fallen’. We were told we would remember them. But in remembering had anyone bothered to find out the human stories behind their deaths? 

For a start, half of those whose names were read out never fought. One was popular railway guard and reservist who died of old age in January 1915. Another grave commemorates the life of a retired Major who died peacefully at home in Balhousie Terrace.

There was undoubted tragedy in some of the deaths of those named, even if they didn’t occur in battle. One died of natural causes on a training exercise; another was killed when he fell out of a train near Cumbernauld; a third fell off a horse in York. Yet another took ill in London and died in Woolwich hospital.

Other deaths were accidents. One poor lad buried at Wellshill was shot in the back by his friend while hunting rabbits near Glenfarg.

Perhaps the saddest untold story behind the names read out yesterday was that of a 45-year-old reservist tram conductor. After his shift, a little after 8 o’clock in the evening of Saturday, 17 August 1915, he went home to his wife and family in Brown Street, put his shotgun in his mouth, pulled the trigger and blew the top of his skull off. 

The trouble is that none of these fascinating, often moving stories were told, because they don’t fit a narrative that demands we only list names and numbers so we can say they all fell bravely for a single cause. But when people are so reduced, are we really remembering the human cost? I got the impression that anyone listening yesterday didn’t think much about it. This is how trivialised our remembrance has become: we seem more impressed by how quiet we were in the minute's silence than anything else. 

In the end, were those deaths more tragic than, say, the loss of our first-team goalkeeper, John Mulrooney, to a heart attack days after the outbreak of war? His lack of rank alone means his name will never be read out at McDiarmid. And Johnny Cameron’s war death will forever eclipse his moment of greatest bravery: when he rescued a wee girl who’d fallen into the Tay at spate in the dark in late February 1913. Cameron jumped fully-clothed into the river by Perth Bridge to swim to her and save her.

But I want to close on a wider point. In offering my views on an Armed Forces Day – which would have passed without comment a few years ago – I’ve insulted no-one, nor been rude to anyone who holds a different view. I’ve attempted to put facts behind my opinions, and asked questions I was open to hear answers to.

But I’ve realised most of those I’m discussing it with aren’t listening. In lieu of counter-arguments I, or others who hold similar views, have been called ‘blinkered’, ’idiots’, ’knobs’ and ’assholes’. I’ve been told to hang my head in shame and ‘get [my] attitude sorted out’. I’ve been informed that my comments were ‘offensive’ and was advised to miss the match. 

This thread hasn’t promoted discussion. Instead – and surely there’s irony here – it’s shown intolerance.  Being called ‘assholes’ by a fellow Saints fan – and seeing the names on the list of ‘likes’ attaching themselves to such a nasty comment – strikes a new low. So this will be my last post on the topic – and in this forum.

Compassion inflation and intolerance towards differing views will ensure the same Armed Forces spectacle is repeated next year. I won’t making the same argument against it then. I may not have managed to change minds, but I don’t regret for a minute speaking out against it.

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