Recommended Posts

  • 1 year later...

I know of a lot of no voters who would switch, and this was before this week’s farcical vote in WM. When you consider the news feed we get, and just how one sided it is, it amazes me that so many have changed their minds. The mainstream media impact perhaps is declining, certainly the number of regular watchers of Tv and radio news programmes has gone down considerably. I saw somewhere recently that only 1 in 20  in Scotland listen to a morning news prog.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reporting Scotland and Good Morning Scotland, the flagship BBC TV and radio programmes, now get 5% and 2% respectively. These figures have to be culled from YouGov surveys, because BBC Scotland refuse to answer FOI requests on audience figures, even though we pay for them. Even no voters are turning away from BBC Scotland in droves. But they are definitely, absolutely not unbalanced. We know that because they say so.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎14‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 10:08 AM, garydavidson said:

I see @stevensan would now vote Yes after being a no voter in 2014. Be interesting to know if any others would vote differently given the chance?

https://twitter.com/stevensanPH/status/1007169575069388800

 

 

Interesting. I'm the absolute antithesis - voted "Yes" before, but would absolutely not do so again (By the by, my later vote for "Leave" would also not change)  In my opinion, our future is far more assured if we stay allied with that of our nearest neighbour, than as part of a wannabe-superstate who yet again, in the case of Italy this time, have proved that they are prepared to influence and subvert the will of voters in what should be sovereign matters. Denmark and Ireland have suffered in the same way when their Europhile governments didn't get the results they wanted after referenda. Various eastern European members are now being threatened if they don't tow the line on immigration - if their people believe their cultures are under threat by it, that should be the absolute end of the matter, same as it should be for opposition to any other EU diktat.  I believe Europeans across the continent are waking up to what the EU is about, and I can see it coming to an end in the forseeable future.  Why would we want to align ourselves with that, and not with our closest neighbour, with whom we do most business on this island??

All of this is not to say that I think the UK government is doing a great job - it patently is not, and is demonstrating a weakness that I can scarcely comprehend.  I have several "Remain" friends who are now "Leave" that changed their minds by just looking at the way the government are dealing with the EU - which shows the depth of influence they actually have over our sovereignty and politics. If the UK are under that influence what sort of "independence" do "Yes" voters think they would actually be getting??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don’t you think that the Uk gov is subverting the will of the people as you put it by their behaviour not just this week but over quite a while? And of course, a yes to Indy does not mean we remain in Europe, that would then need another vote for that. At least if we had Indy we in Scotland would decide what we do, not the Tory WM govt we have currently. 

And what about the promises by fluffy etc? Oh, and the latest by fluffy is that we are no longer a partner in the UK, we are now only a part of it.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, dunblanemike said:

Don’t you think that the Uk gov is subverting the will of the people as you put it by their behaviour not just this week but over quite a while? And of course, a yes to Indy does not mean we remain in Europe, that would then need another vote for that. At least if we had Indy we in Scotland would decide what we do, not the Tory WM govt we have currently. 

And what about the promises by fluffy etc? Oh, and the latest by fluffy is that we are no longer a partner in the UK, we are now only a part of it.

 

I took his comment as highlighting the fact that the word "partner" is meangless since Scotland are part of the UK. In my admittedly simplistic way of thinking, the term "partner" would only apply to an *external* body interfacing with us - "us" being the UK, including Scotland.  So he was underlining the fact that Scotland is not "external", but very much an integral part of the UK. Please tell me you're just deliberately misconstruing what Mundell said, to spin it? If you can't (or more likely won't) see the difference, we really are lost.

I would agree that the UK Govt is subverting the will of the people.  The people voted, (and here's the rub) AS THE UK... to leave the EU.  Bear in mind, that before you reply with the stock "but the interests of the Scottish people...?" argument that Sturgeon trots out, that those same "Scottish people" also voted to REMAIN PART OF THE UK.  The UK Govt are in my opinion doing all in their power to subvert the will of the 17.4m voters who voted "Leave".  They should be removed, and an Administration put in place who will make that happen immediately.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, HertsAgain said:

I took his comment as highlighting the fact that the word "partner" is meangless since Scotland are part of the UK. In my admittedly simplistic way of thinking, the term "partner" would only apply to an *external* body interfacing with us - "us" being the UK, including Scotland.  So he was underlining the fact that Scotland is not "external", but very much an integral part of the UK. Please tell me you're just deliberately misconstruing what Mundell said, to spin it? If you can't (or more likely won't) see the difference, we really are lost.

I would agree that the UK Govt is subverting the will of the people.  The people voted, (and here's the rub) AS THE UK... to leave the EU.  Bear in mind, that before you reply with the stock "but the interests of the Scottish people...?" argument that Sturgeon trots out, that those same "Scottish people" also voted to REMAIN PART OF THE UK.  The UK Govt are in my opinion doing all in their power to subvert the will of the 17.4m voters who voted "Leave".  They should be removed, and an Administration put in place who will make that happen immediately.

 

I’m probably not on the same end of the political spectrum as you, but agree with most of what you say. The will of the people should be paramount.

Two points though: any system has to allow for the will of the people to change, especially when referendum results have been close. One can argue about how often that should be measured, or how big a “material change” has to be, but the key point is that the will of the people changes over time and referenda results - and for that matter, election results - cannot be regarded as answering questions for all time or in all circumstances.

Secondly, the prevailing political philosophy in Scotland evolved differently from that in England. In Scotland, the concept that sovereignty rests with the people has been embedded for centuries. In England, sovereignty rests with the crown in parliament, a pretty daft concept in the 21st century. The Scottish approach seems far more in line with your world view.

And if the will of the people is paramount, why not the will of the Scottish people? Why do we need to align ourselves to any neighbour - meaning, of course, they make all our most important decisions for us? No other country in the world is trying to do that.

After independence, everything will stay exactly the same - except the power to change everything. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, HertsAgain said:

Various eastern European members are now being threatened if they don't tow the line on immigration - if their people believe their cultures are under threat by it, that should be the absolute end of the matter, same as it should be for opposition to any other EU diktat.  

I don't really understand what this means. How can a culture be under threat? Culture isn't a pre-defined static entity that never changes. Culture changes constantly, and has done throughout history. What's the "threat" element? What you see as a threat, someone else might see as natural, healthy growth and change. That change will always happen, regardless of what people vote for.

 

18 hours ago, HertsAgain said:

I would agree that the UK Govt is subverting the will of the people.  The people voted, (and here's the rub) AS THE UK... to leave the EU.  Bear in mind, that before you reply with the stock "but the interests of the Scottish people...?" argument that Sturgeon trots out, that those same "Scottish people" also voted to REMAIN PART OF THE UK.  The UK Govt are in my opinion doing all in their power to subvert the will of the 17.4m voters who voted "Leave".  They should be removed, and an Administration put in place who will make that happen immediately.

 

Pretty much agree with this. The people of Scotland shot themselves in the foot by not grabbing hold of independence with both hands. They chose to stay in the UK and now the UK has chosen a path that they don't want. That's exactly why independence would have been a good idea - people had the chance to choose their own path, and they said No to it. They can't have it both ways. Given what's happened since then, though, I do think there's a bloody good case now for a second Indy Ref. Maybe London should get one too, because we didn't want Brexit either.

As for the "will of the people" in the UK as a whole - I honestly don't know how anyone can sincerely claim to know what that will is. We were only offered a straight choice of Leave or Remain, yet since then various other kinds of potential Brexit scenarios have arisen, none of which the people were asked about. Add in all the mis-information people were fed, and the complete blindness to how it would happen and what any exit deal would be, and the whole Brexit vote just looks like a mess. Personally I don't think the people were ever in a position to make that decision, and the referendum should never have happened in the first place.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When the people of Scotland voted to Remain as part of the UK they were told they were also voting to remain as part of the EU. (Remember all those threats about how leaving the EU was the worst thing ever). IMO when Brexit is finalised the people of Scotland have to be granted a vote on our continuning membership of this one sided union as what we voted for in 2014 is not the UK of today.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The will of the people is best measured through a referendum......we had one in 2014.  The people voted to remain part of the UK, by a double digit margin.....in any other election in landslide territory.  Undergraduate stunts of the type we witnessed last week are all very well, and may even sell well with the initiated, but they do nothing to convince the sceptical. What we are seeing now is a last effort to reignite this issue before the next round of elections, the available polling evidence suggest the majority of Scots are unenthusiastic about following one constitutional clusterf*ck (Brexit) with another (Scexit). Further the sight of a few battle reinactors festooned in saltires (AUOB) will repel as many voters as it attracts....its over for a generation.

 

 

Edited by Smarmy Arab
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Broggy Man said:

Well the will of the people is a big statement fact only 34.7% of those eligible to vote in fact voted leave strange that sparks of apathy to me

Not sure what your point is?  That's the way the system works, like it or not.  Those are the voters that felt strongly enough to go out and actually vote Leave.  Presumably fewer than that felt strongly enough to actually go out and vote Remain?

And before we get a response along the lines of "It wasn't enough to take the UK out of a club they'd been in for 45 years, yadda, yadda...", I'd argue that the economic community that people in the UK voted to join in the 70s (I would argue "conned", but that's a personal view) is now not the same "club" now fuelled by pathological altruism and "social justice", and which now seeks to dictate political and fiscal union across the continent.  How odd then, that Scottish "Nationalists" now make a strangely similar type of argument about the UK "not being the same" as when the Independence Referendum was held in 2014, without acknowledging the point about the EEC morphing into something that is wildly different to what we joined.  It's almost as if they had double standards or something...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, HertsAgain said:

Not sure what your point is?  That's the way the system works, like it or not.  Those are the voters that felt strongly enough to go out and actually vote Leave.  Presumably fewer than that felt strongly enough to actually go out and vote Remain?

And before we get a response along the lines of "It wasn't enough to take the UK out of a club they'd been in for 45 years, yadda, yadda...", I'd argue that the economic community that people in the UK voted to join in the 70s (I would argue "conned", but that's a personal view) is now not the same "club" now fuelled by pathological altruism and "social justice", and which now seeks to dictate political and fiscal union across the continent.  How odd then, that Scottish "Nationalists" now make a strangely similar type of argument about the UK "not being the same" as when the Independence Referendum was held in 2014, without acknowledging the point about the EEC morphing into something that is wildly different to what we joined.  It's almost as if they had double standards or something...

You believe that the European Union has more political power over Scotland than Westminster. That is exactly the opposite of the view of many Scottish Nationalists. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share