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It is. You wonder how much more malevolent, contemptuous of others and above all woefully incompetent the British State has to become before those badly afflicted by the cringe finally consider that we just might be able to do a better job ourselves. There are signs that the utter shambles they have made of Brexit is starting to wake up a few.

The branding thing is more important than it seems, but try to talk about it and you are bombarded with sneery nonsense about flags and parochialism. There is a process of recolonisation underway, an attempt to re-impose the “North Britain” approach of the late 18th and 19th century, to effectively erase Scotland as a separate entity. You see it everywhere. Each example isn’t that important in itself, hence the sneering, but it all adds up. It’s how it’s always been done across the world when governments seek to erase indigenous or regional identities. Another example was at the recent Commonwealth Games, where Scotland, Wales and N Ireland mysteriously became something called the “Home Countries” on the BBC.

  I think it’s too late for this approach to work, although the cringe is mighty in some. 

Edited by Abernethy Saint
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3 hours ago, Abernethy Saint said:

 Another example was at the recent Commonwealth Games, where Scotland, Wales and N Ireland mysteriously became something called the “Home Countries” on the BBC.

  

England are included in the "home Nations" as well. The home nations represented:

England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man

 

Edited by sleepless
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No they didn’t. They each represented themselves. “Home countries” is a completely meaningless and contrived construct designed to promote British Empire 2.0. And most Scots would LOVE the autonomy Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man enjoy, by the way. Apparently Jersey is NOT too wee, too poor and too stupid.

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Sleepiness, you’re simply reinforcing my point. “Home Nations” was invented by the BBC to undermine the terrifying idea that Scotland might be a distinct entity. Pointing me to the source of their propaganda doesn’t prove anything. Who says “Home Nations” in real life? I’m holidaying in the Home Nations this year? Nope. Edinburgh is the capital of a Home Nation? Nope. And I think you’ll find very few references to Belgium v The Home Nations this afternoon.

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9 hours ago, Abernethy Saint said:

Sleepiness, you’re simply reinforcing my point. “Home Nations” was invented by the BBC to undermine the terrifying idea that Scotland might be a distinct entity. Pointing me to the source of their propaganda doesn’t prove anything. Who says “Home Nations” in real life? I’m holidaying in the Home Nations this year? Nope. Edinburgh is the capital of a Home Nation? Nope. And I think you’ll find very few references to Belgium v The Home Nations this afternoon.

This is the sort of rubbish that absolutely destroys the credibility of the Independence argument.  People see this and think "if this is the level of debate then I'm not interested".  Home Nations has been used as a term for the countries of the UK (and occasionally Ireland) in all sorts of sporting competitions for years - probably before the BBC came into existence. 

Your last sentence is ridiculous.  "Home Nations" refers to ALL the countries of the UK.  Belgium are playing England.  Ii would be like referring to a Saints v Aberdeen game as Tayside Clubs v Aberdeen.

Please try and find some legitimate grievances to support the Independence campaign.  

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Yes, utterly ridiculous. So why do they do it when, and only when, UK Nations other than England are involved?

Of course, three English fans were actually referred to as British by the media - when the Russian police were hunting them for making Nazi salutes in a Stalingrad pub. 

But it’s exactly as I said - mention one example, and British Nationalists sneer and ridicule. Put all these things together, and you have a concerted campaign. 

The Scottish Office has just renamed itself “the UK government in Scotland”. David Mundell is on recent record as saying “Scotland ceased to exist in 1707” and has repeatedly made clear he does not represent Scotland in the UK, but the other way round. Devolution, such as it was, is in the process of being reversed. Smell the roses.

Edited by Abernethy Saint
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I don't know if I am being whooshed here, or perhaps you have got me hook. line and sinker but, believe me, life really is too short for this sort of debate.  Please see the first and last sentence of my previous post. 

I want the Independence campaign to say: Scotland should be independent because .....................................................................

It shouldn't include "the BBC said something about the Home Nations" or "some Englishmen were called British".  If Scotland really is better off alone then let's hear the positives and all this other stuff will be irrelevant.  

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Agreed. I got sucked down a rabbit hole there. 

Without writing an essay, and at the risk of gross over-simplification, do you not think Sturgeon genuinely wants to improve life for everyone in Scotland, whereas May and her ilk simply want to maintain and improve the wealth of a few? That is the point of independence - if it was just about a flag, I wouldn’t be interested, and I don’t know anyone who would.

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Firstly, I would like to point out I am not a political geek.  I don't go looking for political information and I don't normally do debate, so you will have to forgive my simplistic point of view.

I am not against Independence, but it would be nice to know what we were voting for.  It appears to me that in the last few weeks (since that financial report thing came out) the SNP have abandoned their attempts to convince everyone that Scotland can be the greatest wee country in the world and launched a "look at what the nasty UK government is doing to us" campaign. This, I believe, is also what you were doing.  We are now not being convinced to vote FOR Independence but AGAINST the English/Tories/BBC/Queen/British Media/National Anthem and everything else Scots are supposed to hate.

This is exactly how we managed to get into the Brexit mess.  People weren't persuaded to vote FOR Brexit, (and didn't know what that meant) rather they were asked to vote AGAINST immigration, payments to Brussels, having our laws decided for us, etc.

Now to your question.  I recently said that if the SNP abandoned their push for an Independent Scotland, had a quick re-brand, lost their attitude and launched as a full UK party they could do very well.  They would take votes from both Labour and the Tories and it would be no bad thing.  I'm sure Nicola Sturgeon wants the best for everyone in Scotland, but even she admits she joined the SNP as a direct result of her hate for Maggie Thatcher.  It would be great to be Independent it if meant things were better for everyone in Scotland, but even the most progressive (I believe that's the current buzz-word) society can't look after it's vulnerable citizens if it doesn't have any money.  Even the "We can make our own decisions" argument doesn't stand up if other outside influences restrict our decision making.

So that is my final rant on the subject.  Bottom line is - if you want to promote Independence BE POSITIVE.

You can reply to this with TLDR.  I won't mind.   

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Nicola Sturgeon et al. Could not give 2 f*cks about what is 'good' for Scotland, they would have us living in tents....so long as we are 'independent'.......emotional drivel! 

 

The appointment of Blackford shows the way they are going.....no more persuasion just use their political position to cause as much damage as possible.  They are a f*cking disgrace.

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9 hours ago, Smarmy Arab said:

Nicola Sturgeon et al. Could not give 2 f*cks about what is 'good' for Scotland, they would have us living in tents....so long as we are 'independent'.......emotional drivel! 

I think you are being a bit harsh there Smarmy, although I do get the impression that the vast majority of Independence supporters would accept a reduction in the standard of living in Scotland if it meant we were "free".

It seems to me that everyone who actively campaigns for independence start from one of two positions:  either it is an idealistic view that we are a separate country and should be making our own decisions, or they hate the Tories and it is the only way to get rid of them.  It is only after they have made the decision that Scotland should be independent that they look for the evidence to prove that we will be better off (while dismissing any counter evidence as flawed, scaremongering, propaganda or irrelevant).

The problems start when they get so involved in their utopian view that anything and everything can and should be done to achieve their goal.

I want to hear a clear, balanced, sensible debate about the pros and cons of being independent, with both sides accepting relevant arguments from the opposition. (I accept that this will never happen).

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Ha, well I’m too old to know what tldr means! 

There is a lot of truth in your assertion that folk want independence to get rid of the kind of policies traditionally followed by the Tories. Scotland has voted overwhelmingly centre-left continuously since the 1950’s. I’m assuming you see this as a good thing - if you don’t, fair enough, but that’s a different conversation.

Until recently, voting centre-left meant labour. Several problems with that: time and again, Scotland sent large majorities of Labour MP’s south, and still got a Tory Government. Scotland often does not get the government it votes for. England always does. The numbers make that inevitable. In only the tightest elections can the different voting patterns in Scotland and Wales make any difference overall, and it doesn’t happen - look at the Brexit result. Secondly, the quality of Labour MP was often truly dire - rows and rows of white, fat old men acting as docile voting fodder in return for huge expense accounts and a sprinkling of ermine robes. They rarely spoke for Scotland, rarely spoke full stop in many cases. Finally, and most importantly, Labour did not keep its promises. In how many elections have they promised to introduce an elected second chamber, or abolish Zero hour contracts, or move away from nuclear weapons, etc etc? It’s always the NEXT time. And with Blair, the party moved even further to the right, and became indistinguishable from the Tories.

So there was a growing frustration. Then Salmond took over the SNP from the progressive left of the party, set out how independence was much more likely to take Scotland in a progressive direction that a million more years of labour and bang - there was an alternative. The SNP also had a generation of young, diverse, articulate candidates ready to go, and had proved it’s ability to govern competently at Holyrood. Voters, particularly younger, less conservative ones, left Labour in droves for the SNP. SNP types don’t like you saying it, but in many ways, the SNP has simply become the Scottish Labour Party - after all, perhaps 80% of its members previously voted Labour.

So yes, if you don’t want more Tory government, independence is seen by many as the only viable way forward. I don’t think seeking different (democratic) ways to achieve a fair and just society is inherently bad, do you? Should it really be vote for a UK Labour government or nothing? 

Corbyn could have got many of those who left Labour in Scotland back, but simply fell immediately into the boring old SNP bad narrative, and destroyed his chances in Scotland in about a week. And there’s the small matter of him being unelectable at UK level. So not a realistic alternative.

Ridding Scotland of Tory rule and what that represents for good is surely a worthy aim, and independence is a viable means of achieving that.

So can we make it alone? This is a question that genuinely bewilders independence supporters, who look at Scotland’s amazing natural and human resources and ask what sort of almighty cluster**** would you have to create to not make a success with that? We can get into it issue by issue if you want, but it boils down to this: there are very few historical nations in the world that are not self-governing. Independence isn’t utopian or idealistic, it is the normal state of affairs, as the ever-increasing list of new countries testifies. Of those who started as an advanced society before independence, none have really fecked it up. So tell me, what is it about Scotland that makes us so uniquely and spectacularly useless that we can’t do it? Unionists NEVER answer this!

Edited by Abernethy Saint
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I'm sorry AS but you have spent a very long time proving my point.  A vote for Brexit was a vote against the European parliament, a vote for Independence is a vote against the UK parliament.

I could highlight a few points you have made that could be disputed, but I can't be bothered.  (As I said I don't really do political debate).  I will say, however, that I believe Scotland could "make it" alone - but is it possible we might not be quite as prosperous, or can you guarantee everyone will be better off?

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Look nobody tells the truth in politics. They spout out their positions and people get sucked. The whole debate could be made with honesty and clear and truthful information. We had in the Brexit debate in the previous referendum and frankly the information these so called politicians spout is frankly ridiculous. 

How are the people ever expected to make an informed decision when the information they are give is utter crap. For the sake of completeness all the parties are the same bloody liars

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1 hour ago, Broggy Man said:

Look nobody tells the truth in politics. They spout out their positions and people get sucked. The whole debate could be made with honesty and clear and truthful information. We had in the Brexit debate in the previous referendum and frankly the information these so called politicians spout is frankly ridiculous. 

How are the people ever expected to make an informed decision when the information they are give is utter crap. For the sake of completeness all the parties are the same bloody liars

Agreed. Can't trust anyone who wants a career as a Politician. All of them slimy cunts, no matter the party. In it for themselves.

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1 hour ago, Broggy Man said:

Look nobody tells the truth in politics. They spout out their positions and people get sucked. The whole debate could be made with honesty and clear and truthful information. We had in the Brexit debate in the previous referendum and frankly the information these so called politicians spout is frankly ridiculous. 

How are the people ever expected to make an informed decision when the information they are give is utter crap. For the sake of completeness all the parties are the same bloody liars

Finally, a sensible, reasonable, articulate, well thought out and well presented post on the subject.  Maybe if I had said something similar at the start I would have saved myself a lot of hassle. 

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Ha ha people agreeing is frightening but it does show that we are all learning. It is so frightening that the public watch the news and see political statements like £350 million a week going to the NHS and actually believe it. Then the pension thing in the Indy referendum that we are all going to lose our pension. Then RBS are leaving I mean really come on folks don’t be sucked in. There is no debate to be had until we know what we are worth, The UK is worth the borrowing arrangements would be what kind of deficit we would face it’s all just a nightmare. But what do our politicians do they try to scare us into their point of view. Sack them all get an independent governor in let them see the figures and tell the people not the muppets sitting in either of the parliaments and for God’s sake write it in a way the ordinary folk can understand.

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Sorry to get boring and I’m not anti anything I am open minded but we need to know what we are worth.

what is Scotland’s products worth

fishing

drink

agriculture

tourism

manufacturing

services

any I have forgotten.

and what does it cost to run the country on a break even. Then you have an argument.

 

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I am going to frighten you again Mr Broggy Man, but I agree with almost everything you say.  The only problem with your argument is the "Independent" Governor.  If someone has a vote in this country then they must have an opinion.  If they have an opinion then they are not independent.  This is also the problem with "Independent" reports.  The people creating these reports are not brought in from some far-flung island and start with a blank piece of paper.  Assumptions must be made when doing the calculations and everyone starts with their own views and feelings, so the results must be tainted.  I don't believe we can ever be given the "true facts".

This is my last post so I'll will finish with the complaint that set me off in the first instance.  Today, the headlines in every Scottish national newspaper was about the poor lassie who was found dead on the Isle of Bute, except The  National, who thought the biggest story in Scotland was a North Ayrshire Tory Councillor making a xenophobic tweet.

If you want people to vote for Independence then tell us the benefits - stop being D***heads.

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19 minutes ago, Two Js said:

I am going to frighten you again Mr Broggy Man, but I agree with almost everything you say.  The only problem with your argument is the "Independent" Governor.  If someone has a vote in this country then they must have an opinion.  If they have an opinion then they are not independent.  This is also the problem with "Independent" reports.  The people creating these reports are not brought in from some far-flung island and start with a blank piece of paper.  Assumptions must be made when doing the calculations and everyone starts with their own views and feelings, so the results must be tainted.  I don't believe we can ever be given the "true facts".

This is my last post so I'll will finish with the complaint that set me off in the first instance.  Today, the headlines in every Scottish national newspaper was about the poor lassie who was found dead on the Isle of Bute, except The  National, who thought the biggest story in Scotland was a North Ayrshire Tory Councillor making a xenophobic tweet.

If you want people to vote for Independence then tell us the benefits - stop being D***heads.

Not going to get into a political debate but you are too sensible for this debate so will miss your input.

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