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41 minutes ago, Two Js said:

I am going to frighten you again Mr Broggy Man, but I agree with almost everything you say.  The only problem with your argument is the "Independent" Governor.  If someone has a vote in this country then they must have an opinion.  If they have an opinion then they are not independent.  This is also the problem with "Independent" reports.  The people creating these reports are not brought in from some far-flung island and start with a blank piece of paper.  Assumptions must be made when doing the calculations and everyone starts with their own views and feelings, so the results must be tainted.  I don't believe we can ever be given the "true facts".

This is my last post so I'll will finish with the complaint that set me off in the first instance.  Today, the headlines in every Scottish national newspaper was about the poor lassie who was found dead on the Isle of Bute, except The  National, who thought the biggest story in Scotland was a North Ayrshire Tory Councillor making a xenophobic tweet.

If you want people to vote for Independence then tell us the benefits - stop being D***heads.

Aye, I think your “neutral” mask is slipping a bit, Two J’s. The National was set up specifically to offer something different to the relentless Reporting Scotlandy diet of SNP Bad, murders, football and snow, so don’t be surprised when they do that. The National is also the only media outlet reporting by far the biggest current political story  in Scotland - the fact that the Ruth Davidson Never Surrender Party is being investigated for receiving a third of a million in funding routed through the DUP from highly dodgy sources. Funny how the rest of the media don’t want to tell you about that, isn’t it?

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1 hour ago, Abernethy Saint said:

Aye, I think your “neutral” mask is slipping a bit, Two J’s. The National was set up specifically to offer something different to the relentless Reporting Scotlandy diet of SNP Bad, murders, football and snow, so don’t be surprised when they do that. The National is also the only media outlet reporting by far the biggest current political story  in Scotland - the fact that the Ruth Davidson Never Surrender Party is being investigated for receiving a third of a million in funding routed through the DUP from highly dodgy sources. Funny how the rest of the media don’t want to tell you about that, isn’t it?

Jesus H Christ AS, it's like you have been brainwashed by some mysterious cult or you have some strange mental block.  Way against my better judgement I am going to try one more time:

I AM NOT AGAINST SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE.  If I could truly believe that an independent Scotland would be financially better off than it is today, and therefore bring extra benefits to the people of Scotland, I would be down at the voting booth putting my cross in the YES box - and so would every other Scot. The big stumbling block is even you have admitted that this cannot be guaranteed.

One example:  I think I remember that during the last campaign we were told that every Scot would be £700 a year better off, but on the eve of the referendum the man who had spent his entire political career getting to that point couldn't even tell us what currency we would be using.  How can you carry out financial forecasting without taking into account which currency would be involved?

My whole complaint is that the SNP have abandoned any hope of convincing people that we are heading for a land of milk and honey, and instead are attacking anyone and anything remotely connected to England and the Tories. (You do remember this started with your "Home Nations" complaint).  The National is just another example of this obsessive and monotonous drive to alienate Scots against the rest of the UK, in this instance forsaking any attempt at journalistic integrity.  (Can you honestly say the childish tweeting of a minor political figure in Ayrshire is more relevant than the tragic and mysterious death of a 6 year old girl?)

Please, please, please don't reply with "whataboutery".  I know the NO campaign produced more sh!te than a herd of cows with diarrhea.  I am a proud Scot and I want the best for Scotland - everybody else is getting independence doesn't necessarily mean being independent is the right move for us at the moment. 

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3 hours ago, Two Js said:

I am going to frighten you again Mr Broggy Man, but I agree with almost everything you say.  The only problem with your argument is the "Independent" Governor.  If someone has a vote in this country then they must have an opinion.  If they have an opinion then they are not independent.  This is also the problem with "Independent" reports.  The people creating these reports are not brought in from some far-flung island and start with a blank piece of paper.  Assumptions must be made when doing the calculations and everyone starts with their own views and feelings, so the results must be tainted.  I don't believe we can ever be given the "true facts".

This is my last post so I'll will finish with the complaint that set me off in the first instance.  Today, the headlines in every Scottish national newspaper was about the poor lassie who was found dead on the Isle of Bute, except The  National, who thought the biggest story in Scotland was a North Ayrshire Tory Councillor making a xenophobic tweet.

If you want people to vote for Independence then tell us the benefits - stop being D***heads.

But if people had the raw figures and had something to compare them against then they at least have the information. I suppose the word governor was a bad use of a word maybe a simple accountant would have been better.

i am not pro independence or pro union I am simply pro let us make the choice and give us the facts to do so.

take Brexit the fishermen were reeled in (excuse the pun) with we will control our waters. Fact is if Westminster losses London as the financial capitol of Europe they will be broke so already the fishermen have realised they yet again will be sold down the river. I speak from knowledge on this. We deal a lot with the fishermen in Shetland and there mood has com0letely changed on Brexit many other industry,s will face the same fate including mine agriculture. We have already been gazumped by cheap Romanian Lamb almost wiping out the Shetland lamb market in fact last year the considered simply culling the lambs. For gods sake there is people starving in the world. The whole situation is being driven by lie after lie and the only industry Westminster is trying to save is the financial industry.

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4 minutes ago, Broggy Man said:

But if people had the raw figures and had something to compare them against then they at least have the information. I suppose the word governor was a bad use of a word maybe a simple accountant would have been better.

i am not pro independence or pro union I am simply pro let us make the choice and give us the facts to do so.

take Brexit the fishermen were reeled in (excuse the pun) with we will control our waters. Fact is if Westminster losses London as the financial capitol of Europe they will be broke so already the fishermen have realised they yet again will be sold down the river. I speak from knowledge on this. We deal a lot with the fishermen in Shetland and there mood has com0letely changed on Brexit many other industry,s will face the same fate including mine agriculture. We have already been gazumped by cheap Romanian Lamb almost wiping out the Shetland lamb market in fact last year the considered simply culling the lambs. For gods sake there is people starving in the world. The whole situation is being driven by lie after lie and the only industry Westminster is trying to save is the financial industry.

I agree Broggy Man.  Only a complete idiot would vote for independence if it was going to make their life worse, so we must make sure the data is correct AND it shows the lives of us poor Scots will improve before we vote YES.

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1 hour ago, Two Js said:

I agree Broggy Man.  Only a complete idiot would vote for independence if it was going to make their life worse, so we must make sure the data is correct AND it shows the lives of us poor Scots will improve before we vote YES.

I don’t totally agree Two J’s.

i would accept being a little worse off if we had a more focused Scottish spending plan. I don’t mean the media sound bite policies of the SNP or any other Scottish party but spending that makes sense. That was one of the reasons I voted to leave EU as I couldn’t understand the grip the EU had on public infrastructure investment and the stupid rules placed on it.

i cringe that agriculture and fisheries will now be passed to Westminster and I shudder every time Michael Gove issues a statement.

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Two J’s, can you introduce me to any country - any one at all - that can guarantee increased prosperity? Just one. Go on. Pretending to be neutral whilst setting impossible standards for one side only is pretty unconvincing. Can the UK, currently in the longest period of falling real incomes since records began, guarantee this?

And as for calling out the National for this, do me a favour. Had that been an SNP Councillor, every paper bar the National would have led on it, because that’s what they do, time after time, day after day, it’s relentless. The other side are allowed to shoot back, you know.

All the parties bar the SNP, and all the papers bar the National, are trying to turn the English against the Scottish and it’s all just awful etc etc etc blah blah but I’M NOT AGAINST THE UNION. I just want you to make a positive case for it. I really wish you would. After all, only an idiot would vote for a union that is going to make us worse off. 

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So, you think one of the biggest political decisions the people of Scotland will be asked to make can be decided on a "Yeah but, No but, Yeah but" argument.  This "He said, she said" rubbish would sound pathetic in a school playground.  Now I'm sure you will say "Well you started it" but I was merely pointing out that the independence campaign has said nothing positive about their position for months.  It's all "Look at what the nasty (insert something British here) are doing to us!"

I have lived in Scotland, as part of the UK, for many a long year now, and I don't need any Unionist to tell me what it's like.  What I need is the Nationalists to convince me that things would be better if Scotland was independent - something you have spectacular failed to do.  If you come back after the full impact of Brexit is known you might have more success.

You have managed to provide a lot of rhetoric without addressing any specific points.  Quite clearly the Nationalists are still in full attack mode, so I will listen to their (your) arguments when they restart the charm offensive.

Finally, you have practically accused me of being a Unionist supporter.  Another problem with your cause - if your not with us then you must be against us. 

That's all from me.  I'm out.

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You did. The esteemed Smarmy Arab may be a Tory, and if he told me the sun had risen, I’d check out of the window before I believed him, but at least he has the decency and self-respect to own his beliefs instead of sneaking about social media playing the agent provocateur. You’re not even very good at it.

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So our debate ends as it began - with you throwing around unsubstantiated accusations and abuse at anyone and anything that you feel do not support your vision of Scotland's future.  This may have ended better if you had been able to produce some evidence that Independence would bring more prosperity to Scotland that it has at the moment.  Can I suggest this would probably be a better strategy if you want to convince people to vote for Independence.

Your last sentence was particularly cutting.  I had hoped that I could win your admiration and respect. Devastated!

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1 hour ago, Two Js said:

So our debate ends as it began - with you throwing around unsubstantiated accusations and abuse at anyone and anything that you feel do not support your vision of Scotland's future.  This may have ended better if you had been able to produce some evidence that Independence would bring more prosperity to Scotland that it has at the moment.  Can I suggest this would probably be a better strategy if you want to convince people to vote for Independence.

Your last sentence was particularly cutting.  I had hoped that I could win your admiration and respect. Devastated!

Blokes a fud two Js, best ignored

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34 minutes ago, Broggy Man said:

Tw Js to be fair to Abernethy Saint you don’t really have a vision do you or at least you have not shared it you seem content which is fair enough to rubbish other folks vision. Come nail your colours to the mast

Hands up - I don't have a vision.  The Tories could not be making more of an arse of Brexit, and by extension running the country, as they are at the moment and I wouldn't trust Jeremy Corbyn to run a school tuck shop.  I have already said that I think the SNP could make a good fist of being a UK party and I wouldn't be upset if they were given a crack at governing the UK.  (If they would stop all this "Look what innovative policies we have that no other country has thought of" rubbish).   My only problem is; I have heard nothing to convince me that Scotland would be better off if it went alone.

Making our own decisions, getting rid of the Tories, Scotland governed by Scots, etc. are all laudable reasons for wanting Scotland to be Independent, but none of them say that Scotland and the Scots will be better off because of it.  Once I start to see evidence that Independence WILL see Scotland's prosperity improve, then I will ask any No supporters to give their reasons why they still oppose it. (I can understand your argument that a more focused Scottish spending plan might work with a slightly reduced budget, but I think we have enough autonomy at the moment for this to make little difference).  What really annoys me is that Independence supporters take the moral high ground; they are more patriotic than everyone else and anyone who doesn't agree with their viewpoint is open to abuse and ridicule.

This is probably not a very satisfactory answer to your question.  I'm not intelligent enough to come up with any answers to the problems that the country ails from.

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4 hours ago, Two Js said:

Hands up - I don't have a vision.  The Tories could not be making more of an arse of Brexit, and by extension running the country, as they are at the moment and I wouldn't trust Jeremy Corbyn to run a school tuck shop.  I have already said that I think the SNP could make a good fist of being a UK party and I wouldn't be upset if they were given a crack at governing the UK.  (If they would stop all this "Look what innovative policies we have that no other country has thought of" rubbish).   My only problem is; I have heard nothing to convince me that Scotland would be better off if it went alone.

Making our own decisions, getting rid of the Tories, Scotland governed by Scots, etc. are all laudable reasons for wanting Scotland to be Independent, but none of them say that Scotland and the Scots will be better off because of it.  Once I start to see evidence that Independence WILL see Scotland's prosperity improve, then I will ask any No supporters to give their reasons why they still oppose it. (I can understand your argument that a more focused Scottish spending plan might work with a slightly reduced budget, but I think we have enough autonomy at the moment for this to make little difference).  What really annoys me is that Independence supporters take the moral high ground; they are more patriotic than everyone else and anyone who doesn't agree with their viewpoint is open to abuse and ridicule.

This is probably not a very satisfactory answer to your question.  I'm not intelligent enough to come up with any answers to the problems that the country ails from.

Well that’s that then

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17 hours ago, Abernethy Saint said:

You did. The esteemed Smarmy Arab may be a Tory, and if he told me the sun had risen, I’d check out of the window before I believed him, but at least he has the decency and self-respect to own his beliefs instead of sneaking about social media playing the agent provocateur. You’re not even very good at it.

Tory? You know perfectly well I have been a member of the Labour Party for the best part of 3 decades. Try as you might you cannot equate every No voter as a Tory.  Since the SNP lost their heartlands to the Tories they now rely upon west central Scotland for their votes.....hence they must harvest the (understandable) anti tory vote since deindustrialisation 

 You still fail to appreciate the many people who can see past emotional nationalism and are comfortable with the connections across these islands,.......that being part of the 5th largest economy on the planet, with a high degree of autonomy and continued shared institutions is a perfectly reasonable position to take.  2Js is schooling you to that effect and  shrieking 'unionist' or 'Tory' in a shrill tone, at anyone who askes a question shows how far you (and your movement) are from winning the argument among reasonable people who are unconvinced by indy.

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RE The Nat Onal, there are a number problems with this publication. Firstly it is only a 'newspaper' in the sense that the Socialist Worker is a newspaper, it is in reality a propaganda sheet for the SNP.  Secondly the journalistic quality is akin to the Daily Express, regardless of its political view point this hardly 'changing the landscape of Scottish journalism' as the claimed at their launch......all they have really achieved is dropping more turds on an already stained landscape.  Even a cursory glance at the comments section should horrify anyone who cares about our political discourse.....blood and soil nationalism in all its vainglority.

It's initial print run was over 60k, it is now well below 10k, an echo chamber if ever I saw one.....disappearing up itself rapidly.

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Thought that would wake you up. A Brit Nat complaining about emotional nationalism is hysterical, fair cheered me up after hours struggling with the garden. All the usual Red Tory yelling (although you missed out how we all hate English folk this time) but firstly, cheers for promoting me to leader of the independence movement. My family are very proud, and I shall try to live up to this great honour. And secondly, Nat Onal has defeated me. Give us a clue. Is it Dundee United’s new left back?

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Incidentally, the Uk is the 19th largest economy in terms of GDP per capita - you know, the figure that actually matters to people, reflecting the huge success of both Tory parties in shifting wealth from the poor to the rich. I expect you’re so angry about that, you’ll be planning to abstain on something.

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Nat Onal is on the mast head. 

 

So you are proposing a model along the lines of Ireland, (as is the Growth Commission) .  Low tax tiger economy.....now who is the Tory!  

Serious question, is the GC an effort to convince those on the right wing of scottish politics that an Indy Scotland would mean a massive shrinking of the welfare state and new bare-knuckle neo liberal tax haven....like...er..... Ireland?

To present an argument that this constitutional debate is a choice of nationalisms would make a Jesuit blush.....only a nationalist would even begin to make such a binary self referential, reductionist case.  I will tell you again, 'unionist' is a position I arrive at, having examined the evidence, not a position I start from, that is NOT A NATIONALIST position, it is a pragmatic position.  The problem (one of them!) With nationalist politics is it begins every discussion with a conclusion, then the work back....the GC is exactly that....if you want Indy this is the cost. (A welcome addition to the debate, as it at least acknowledges the deficit and dangers of over reliance on a volatile resource.)

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You know Smarmy, I think you and I have similar ideas on how to assess whether Scotland should be independent or not.  Apart from that I haven't a clue what you are talking about. :confused::laugh: 

Congratulations on getting AS to discuss the financial implications of Independence - I tried and failed.  I shall follow this discussion (the bits I understand) with interest.

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