Lack of Ambition or Direction

[Center Half]

6 hours ago, PanamaSaint said:

I might be stupid and slightly naive but The Browns have been great owners for our club. I don't think we have to be ever thankful but they stood up and helped out when maybe no-one else was prepared to. Its  a shame that no other big business family from Perthshire has showed much interest in St Johnstone. The likes of Brian Souttar or the whisky companies when they were more family owned I hoped would have stepped forward. Having a pop at The Brown family is completely unfair. My opinion only.

All true Panama! there is the cynic side of me that also says the Browns are not always the best of family's to get on with they do have their spats/spit the dummy out with Key individuals/councils that could have helped out the club, Brian Souttar/Ann Gloag have helped out in sponsorship in the past of the first and the younger teams I am sure and have stepped up when asked /needed however they are more aligned to Dundee FC! although none of them are remotely interested in football which may become the main issue for football in this country in years to come as the money people out there are simply not interested in owning a football club now, they can build their egos with other methods now, like how big is my house/car, Boat/Yacht.    

[OldPoster]

Really the questions is

 

Did Steve Brown back The Manager and the Manager Bought shit players in

or

Did Steve Brown not back the manager and Tommy is actually doing well which the budget he has? 

 

Dundee Utd, St Mirren & Caley Thistle "Allegedly" have bigger budgets than us

Edited February 8, 2018 by saint_markperth
Spelling

[rik2304]

He was backed this year with the signings of Scougall and MOH.

McMillan as well.

[supersaintee]

My tuppence worth - too long? Don't read. 

I'm as frustrated with the current situation as everyone else on here seems to be but I don't think there's an easy answer. We don't have endless funds to plough into the team and I saw in the global sports salary analysis that our first team are on an average wage of less than £1k per week. It's hardly rock star stuff. Notably, Motherwell (who pumped us on Tuesday) and Hamilton are the only two teams in the top flight with lower wages. Given the state of attendances, not just this season but also during our recent "glory" years, we can't afford to go and splash the cash to "invest for the future" as a few people seem to be suggesting. Our average gate this season so far is higher than 2 years ago and only 500 less than when we'd just won the Scottish Cup and were on the way to a fourth place finish and another European spot. This is likely down to the fact that we have relatively successful Hearts, Hibs, TFOE, TFOD and Aberdeen teams visiting regularly again but that has the counter-effect of reducing our chances of competing, given their relative means.

I don't feel that Tommy has helped himself this season with some of his outbursts in the media and the constant links to NI and The Rangers but I'm not sure that there really is a better man out there for the job. Yes, changing the manager can sometimes get you a bit of a bump in results but when we got rid of Totten for McClelland it was a spectacular failure that we took years to come back from. Similarly, dumping Sandy Clark for Billy Stark set us up for 3 years of painful football before Owen then Del brought us back to the top flight. Careful what you wish for. 

In terms of the Browns, who else has put themselves forward to back Saints over the last 30 years? Who wants to invest in a club that can only drum up 4.5k fans when they're having the best run in their history? They've kept us stable, not put the club at risk and have generally looked out for what's best for St Johnstone. There's little thanks for what Geoff and Steve have done but given where we are I don't really see too much to complain about. They have stuck steadfastly to keeping the club solvent, like you would a business. Do we want to model ourselves on Dundee, Dunfermline, Airdrie, Motherwell, Livingston, Gretna who tried to speculate to accumulate before crashing and burning in spectacular fashion?

I love Saints. I've been going to games for over 30 years and had a season ticket for most of that time (except when I was a poor student in Edinburgh and even then I made at least 10 games a season). Yes, I want our results to improve. I agree that our football has been poor over the last few months. But I am still proud to be a Saintee and put faith in the guys who have brought us so much success over the last few years. 

 

[Broggy Man]

3 hours ago, supersaintee said:

My tuppence worth - too long? Don't read. 

I'm as frustrated with the current situation as everyone else on here seems to be but I don't think there's an easy answer. We don't have endless funds to plough into the team and I saw in the global sports salary analysis that our first team are on an average wage of less than £1k per week. It's hardly rock star stuff. Notably, Motherwell (who pumped us on Tuesday) and Hamilton are the only two teams in the top flight with lower wages. Given the state of attendances, not just this season but also during our recent "glory" years, we can't afford to go and splash the cash to "invest for the future" as a few people seem to be suggesting. Our average gate this season so far is higher than 2 years ago and only 500 less than when we'd just won the Scottish Cup and were on the way to a fourth place finish and another European spot. This is likely down to the fact that we have relatively successful Hearts, Hibs, TFOE, TFOD and Aberdeen teams visiting regularly again but that has the counter-effect of reducing our chances of competing, given their relative means.

I don't feel that Tommy has helped himself this season with some of his outbursts in the media and the constant links to NI and The Rangers but I'm not sure that there really is a better man out there for the job. Yes, changing the manager can sometimes get you a bit of a bump in results but when we got rid of Totten for McClelland it was a spectacular failure that we took years to come back from. Similarly, dumping Sandy Clark for Billy Stark set us up for 3 years of painful football before Owen then Del brought us back to the top flight. Careful what you wish for. 

In terms of the Browns, who else has put themselves forward to back Saints over the last 30 years? Who wants to invest in a club that can only drum up 4.5k fans when they're having the best run in their history? They've kept us stable, not put the club at risk and have generally looked out for what's best for St Johnstone. There's little thanks for what Geoff and Steve have done but given where we are I don't really see too much to complain about. They have stuck steadfastly to keeping the club solvent, like you would a business. Do we want to model ourselves on Dundee, Dunfermline, Airdrie, Motherwell, Livingston, Gretna who tried to speculate to accumulate before crashing and burning in spectacular fashion?

I love Saints. I've been going to games for over 30 years and had a season ticket for most of that time (except when I was a poor student in Edinburgh and even then I made at least 10 games a season). Yes, I want our results to improve. I agree that our football has been poor over the last few months. But I am still proud to be a Saintee and put faith in the guys who have brought us so much success over the last few years. 

 

I am on the same wavelength as you with this. A couple of things I would note. Saints have always had a small support recently and in these days of cash shortages for families there is not much incentive to spend your spare money going to football. That said SB has tried hard to make saints an affordable club to go and watch with the family deals etc but doubt it would change that dramatically even if entrance was slashed for adults.

the aim for saints has always been to survive in the premier league and we have achieved that over the years yes this season we are in free fall but survival is still in our hands so I suppose we are on course to achieve that again at this point in time.

The one thing recently I would say is SB showed as being a little over arrogant in his recent interview by saying he listens to other board members but does what he thinks anyway that in its self is not a great attitude as others may have ideas to make things a little better. His father saved saints from oblivion that is a fact and I remember meetings years ago when he came in for the same flack as SB is now regarding money when he famously flashed is cheque book showing that he had personally paid for the Alan Moore signing (I think it was him but I’m old). 

I think we all need to calm down a bit some of us old guard remember when things were much worse than this.

[blueheaven]

Very much in agreement with the above two posts (but surprised that we pay higher average wages than Motherwell!). Also in agreement with Radford's earlier post that it's disappointing to see how eager some people seem to be to get rid of our most successful ever manager. As far as I'm concerned Tommy Wright has more than enough credit in the bank to be considered deserving of every possible opportunity to turn things round. I've said this on here before, but every time we've gone through a bad patch under TW, he's managed to bring us out the other side of it and bring us more success. Changing the manager should be an absolute, final, last resort.

I do worry, though, that even if we stay up (and I think we will), we're in for a very difficult summer. If we finish in a lowly position Steve Brown won't take that as a kick up the arse for failing to build during our successful years; he'll see it as vindication for the decision to always budget for a poor finish. And if we struggled to attract players when we were doing well and able to offer European football, I can only imagine how hard it's going to be if we've just finished around 9th or 10th. Calling for a clear-out of the older players is fine, but could actually make things much worse if we're not able to replace them with new younger players who are up to playing at a similar level.

Whatever happens, I personally think the club needs to take a serious look at both its player recruitment policy and its strategy (does one even exist?) for attracting fans through the gates.

 

 

[Cagey]

It is unbelievable the amount of stick the Browns get on here.

Without them there would be no Saints.

SB has tried to get more support in but the only thing that will bring in the fans is entertaining football. The problem is that doesn't always bring points.

I think Brown has allowed Tommy to bring in players within what we can afford but can see why he might be apprehensive about supporting some of Tommy's signing.

It would be interesting if we knew how much on signing on fees & wages have been spunked over the last 5 years on players o sit in stand or on the bench.

[RandomGuy]

We sell Stevie for £1m, replace with Brian Graham on loan. 

Dundee sell Jack Hendry for £1m, replace with Steven Caulker on 18 month deal. 

A small insight into why we're regressing. 

[jhq]

17 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

We sell Stevie for £1m, replace with Brian Graham on loan. 

Dundee sell Jack Hendry for £1m, replace with Steven Caulker on 18 month deal. 

A small insight into why we're regressing. 

That was 3 seasons ago.  We went on to finish 4th in the league 3 seasons in a row.  Dundee can only dream of finishing 4th.

There must be a reason Caulker wasn't offered anything in England.

This seasons problems have absolutely zero to do with signing Brian Graham 3 seasons ago.

Edited February 8, 2018 by jhq

[Kinnoull Kicker]

22 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

We sell Stevie for £1m, replace with Brian Graham on loan. 

Dundee sell Jack Hendry for £1m, replace with Steven Caulker on 18 month deal. 

A small insight into why we're regressing. 

think any comparison with Dundee is spurious given their record of lack of financial accumen and SJ record of prudence.

SJ has nested in Scougall, Mcmilan and MOH without the benefit of incoming fees rather relying on league position income and non football income. It is also true to say that there has been an investment in continuity through giving certain players long term deals which until the first few weeks of this season no one argued with. with hindsight I guess TW and sB would have taken a different tack. They now have to get on with what we've got and hope TW can turn things around. one things for sure SB will think long and hard before retaining older players for longer in future. 

as for Caulker I think you will find  he has had many personal issues that have impacted his career development. Dundee does not have a good risk/reward record..

[akuram]

McMillan injury is unfortunate and will impact on our problems goal wise.

Surely there must be a free agent available in the goal scoring department we could gamble with until the end of the season. Other teams seem to be able to find a gem but we never seem to.

I cannot remember when I last set off to a match with any confidence we would actually score. Never been so depressed regarding saints.

This goal scoring problem has gone on since Stevie May left and has not been addressed.

End of rant.

[supersaintee]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy said:

We sell Stevie for £1m, replace with Brian Graham on loan. 

Dundee sell Jack Hendry for £1m, replace with Steven Caulker on 18 month deal. 

A small insight into why we're regressing. 

Credit to Caulker for talking openly about his struggles at every club he's been at but he's not without risk, especially if they're throwing decent money at him. 18 months is a long time to pay big money if he doesn't turn his career around. He's likely to have ability and could be a real asset for them but I'm not sure that we would want to take the risk on signing him and potentially end up with him on the books in the Championship (as Dundee may well find).

[Kyle]

1 hour ago, akuram said:

McMillan injury is unfortunate and will impact on our problems goal wise.

Surely there must be a free agent available in the goal scoring department we could gamble with until the end of the season. Other teams seem to be able to find a gem but we never seem to.

I cannot remember when I last set off to a match with any confidence we would actually score. Never been so depressed regarding saints.

This goal scoring problem has gone on since Stevie May left and has not been addressed.

End of rant.

McMillan's due back in the next week or so. If Tommy is after a player who would guarantee you goals then Anthony Stokes is the obvious solution. He creates a whole host of other problems due to his attitude and lack of discipline though.

Can only agree with the general tone of the last page or so. We're lucky to have Tommy as a manager, lucky to have the benefit of Steve's financial prudence (even if he does push it a bit far sometimes) and that duo should be given as much opportunity to get us out of this slump as possible.

With regards to attracting new players - I think releasing a large number of players in the summer would open our budget up some what and make it slightly easier to sign players. 

As things stand, our squad for next season looks like;

Zander Clark

 

Richard Foster

Aaron Comrie

Jason Kerr

Joe Shaughnessy

Liam Gordon

Brian Easton

 

David Wotherspoon

Stefan Scougall

Liam Craig

Kyle McClean

 

Chris Kane

David McMillan

 

13 players signed up with 14/15 (M. Hurst, Mannus, Watson, Anderson, Tanser, Millar, Alston, Davidson, Willock, Williams, G. Hurst, Hendry, Maclean, Johnstone and possibly McCann) either out of contract or with loans expiring. If we get rid of a majority of those guys, some wont need to be replaced like for like because younger players have stepped in or because they're surplus to requirements now.

If Tommy is given the same budget (or even slightly less) he will be able to spread it between fewer players and theoretically replace the old heads with younger players of similar quality with higher wages per player to attract them here. I suppose it depends how deep Tommy wants to cut but there's certainly plenty of opportunity for an overhaul this summer. We certainly don't need a squad of 28 players, all but one with top team experience at Saints. A lot of the players listed above will be among our highest earners too.

I'd like to see Tommy use his contacts in France to bring in one or two players. Habran looked good and has signed for a top flight club in Belgium, so that seems like it could be a fruitful market. If we are finishing 8th/9th/10th or worse then I don't see why we shouldn't take a couple of calculated gambles on something a bit different to try and move ourselves back up the table.

 

[Al C]

3 hours ago, RandomGuy said:

We sell Stevie for £1m, replace with Brian Graham on loan. 

Dundee sell Jack Hendry for £1m, replace with Steven Caulker on 18 month deal. 

A small insight into why we're regressing. 

If you are going to attempt to troll Random at least try and make it less obvious. It’s pretty boring otherwise. 

[RandomGuy]

18 minutes ago, Al C said:

If you are going to attempt to troll Random at least try and make it less obvious. It’s pretty boring otherwise. 

I'm not. The teams around us recieve money for good players, and then spend it on a direct replacement. What have we done with the money for May and MOH? 

Motherwell sell Moult, use the money to get Main. 

Hearts sell Walker, use the money to get Naismith. 

Partick sell Lindsay, use the money to get Keown. 

[TheYellowBox]

24 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

I'm not. The teams around us recieve money for good players, and then spend it on a direct replacement. What have we done with the money for May and MOH? 

Motherwell sell Moult, use the money to get Main. 

Hearts sell Walker, use the money to get Naismith. 

Partick sell Lindsay, use the money to get Keown. 

Tommy would argue that the money from MOH was used on wages for the likes of Swanson, Alston and ultimately Scougall, but you are correct, we’ve rec’d fees and yet not gone out and spent any of it. The £50k we spent on Davidson and Cuptie was well worth it and slightly frustrating that we never seem to actively pursue players from other clubs other than pre contracts.

However, I suspect Brown doesn’t want to pay a fee and to be honest, I can sort of see why he doesn’t give Tommy much, much of his signings haven’t been great. Obviously he’d argue he can only sign the quality of player that he is given fund for And that conflict I think is much of the problem.

I don’t think we have any kind of a scouting network, so signing the likes of Main, Moult or Keown would be unlikely. 

[Dave H]

TW remind me of Craig Brown back around 2000 with national team. Sticks with a formula that worked in the past. Devoid of ideas how to adapt  and can't get the best out of his ageing squad.   CB ended up leaving the national job with duds, giving no hope to his successor.  Yet we all wonder where it's gone pear shaped with Saints. Invest in the future while things are good usually helps. On a side note, we talk about S.May coming through but it was luck he played the Europa game due to injury, he could have easily been loaned back out. That catipulted his season with confidence.

We are not the most pleasing on the eye this last 18 months, but it would help if we could play some 'style' of football whether it's direct, passing, pressing. It doesn't matter style, but this season it all just appears to be going through the motions.. we've lost the mojo so need to change focus, adapt. Fail to adapt we go down.  (Relegation is also not a sackable offence in my mind)

[RandomGuy]

23 minutes ago, Dave H said:

On a side note, we talk about S.May coming through but it was luck he played the Europa game due to injury, he could have easily been loaned back out. 

The story goes that Lomas wanted to loan May out again, May wanted to either play with us, or move permanently. TW decided he wanted him in the first team. I think it's something TW should be lauded for, and for all this "never plays youngsters" rhetoric, it's easily forgotten. 

[tucker]

Captions arm bad should go to muzz,I hope we get muzz signed up soon as we need him whatever division we are in

 

[St Mikey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42990580

 

This article is infuriating to read as a supporter. The players should be feeling the pressure and frankly deserve some of the criticism from the supporters and pundits as simply standards have been set over the years and have gone quickly over 3/4 months.

We all love our team but it is concerning the blasé attitude towards our plight.

[garydavidson]

Interesting post from the unofficial Saints twitter - all of Tommy Wrights signings:

https://twitter.com/stjohnstone1884/status/961872940546498560

 

[rik2304]

8 hours ago, St Mikey said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42990580

 

This article is infuriating to read as a supporter. The players should be feeling the pressure and frankly deserve some of the criticism from the supporters and pundits as simply standards have been set over the years and have gone quickly over 3/4 months.

We all love our team but it is concerning the blasé attitude towards our plight.

He's not going to come out say their confidence is shot and they're all shiteing it.

[Kyle]

For a manager who only signs over the hill, past it players, he very rarely signs anyone who is 30 or over. We signed 2 in the 2014 or beyond (because he wasn't given the chance to sign anyone before August that season) and only 2 since.

[R.B.B:- Adz]

Since you are all moaning about Tommy, just remember, it can always be worse... our manager could be Csaba Laszlo

 

[OldPoster]

16 hours ago, RandomGuy said:

I'm not. The teams around us recieve money for good players, and then spend it on a direct replacement. What have we done with the money for May and MOH? 

Motherwell sell Moult, use the money to get Main. 

Hearts sell Walker, use the money to get Naismith. 

Partick sell Lindsay, use the money to get Keown. 

did we not sign the lad Infra Structure?