Sign in to follow this  
Radford 72

Reserve League News 2018/19

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, BigKerno said:

There will be 7 full time "kids" next season with a few more joining from the U18's (if they are lucky). Do these 11 or 12 kids train as a group or are they part of the first team? What tactics do you teach kids that aren't playing regularly for the team that they are supposed to be registered with? How do you assess them? Do you send scouts across Scotland to their loan clubs because Saints wont. That's ludicrous. There is no plan and no strategy. It's indefensible.

You sound like a bitter disgruntled player or parent who has been living a dream which has been ended by saints. 

Saints obviously do keep a tab on loan players and will have regular feedback from loan clubs. Know that for a fact.

The youth players do train together under the youth coach and youth sports scientists they also have other support for them.

Also how do you know they do not intend playing regular friendlies similar to rangers did this year. I also spoke to one head of youth who was considering putting his u18 into a u23 league to develop. Never know that might be on saints agenda. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sevcozombie2 said:

wow where to begin ,well first off right now saints are playing Aberdeen and 8 players in the squad have been told they are not getting a new contract plus not one member of the first team is playing today or in squad .

today ill probably mostly talk as a dad  off a lad who has been told he just missed out on a new contract due to the limited contracts being handed out as they're no st johnstone reserves next season ,but at the end of the season ill post up here as someone that has been on three sfa courses coached for 16 years ,watched football for over 40 and followed pro youth for ten years .

if u can all cast your minds to last season MR BROWN spoke to the press how he was not in favor of the reserves to few games blah blah blah ,but he also said that the previous season he felt he had to many full time players and with the new u18 team comprising of full time players he had way to many full timers now .

so how was the 18s received by the club and its supporters ,you will all remember them getting a write up in the press about the next crop of saints youngsters to go full time which is every youngsters dream ,you will have seen their photos all suited and booted as they were treated to hospitality ,you will remember the team photo with them all wearing the very latest saints strip or the individual photos and the request for sponsorship ,you will recall all the highlights of there games on saints tv and their after match interviews ,the days you kept checking twitter to see the latest scores in whatever game they were playing ,you will remember the new manager who took them over and also the reserves and helped with the first team even though most clubs have a separate u18s manager ,this will be the only one you remember because none of the rest happend .so play for a club that really shows not much interest in you but as a parent you tell the lad work hard listen and learn as you will have the reserves this season its a big step up and the sfa have did the right thing to bridge the gap for you all .has it worked has it hell they took the age limit away so saints have used a lot of first teamers and boys who should be learning the next level have missed out .

But why are saints getting rid of the reserves ,i know for a fact that there has many clubs been meeting and discussing tweaking the reserves for next season as its not delivering on what they hoped it would so surly saints would  want to wait on the outcome of that before deciding ,it cant be the cost of it all as saints budget for tenth every season so any position above that is a bonus ,its not as one person suggested  that they are not good enough to be professional ,infact i do not no one trade or business who would write a 17 year old off as having no future there after only spending one year in higher job ,when most people know that most footballers improve one hundred fold with age and experience.

so as to date no reason why they are getting rid of them and who decided they were ,do you actually think that tommy and the rest of the coaches said you no what lets get rid of the reserves and we will try and get some kids out on loan,but wait tommy you have a big squad how do they keep match fit ,what if murry gets injured and is out for a month odd   ,how do we xplain to kids if your not near first team at 17 your out .

so ye im pissed about all ths my lad is in aberdeen starting only his third reserve game and this is after being told bye bye by tommy but do i blame him? not really as i think this has been taking right out of his hands ,so what do you want for your club ah tenth is ok we have been batting above our station for a while now and we are back where we belong ,everything is so negative at saints just now including most but not all of the fans ,demand better from your club or it might just keep slipping down and down 

You should know better than most, we don't want our club to die, if that means cutting cloth accordingly then so be it. Just so happens you have your young lad there, it's not personal, just business.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Saints lost 3-1 away to Aberdeen.

1-0 down at H/T to a Miko Virtanen goal.

Ross added a Second 2 mins after the break before Virtanen scored his 2nd and the Dons 3rd in 70th minute.

Ciaran Brian scored a consolation goal for Saints in 74 minutes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the posts from those with first hand experience of the academy and U18s are a valuable contribution to the forum and certainly deserve more respect than they are often given.

I want Saints to produce good young players. Unless the club can paint their vision for the fans then the impression they are giving is that they don't and are instead happy to have have Michael Hart, Michael Doyle, Niall Keown or whoever sitting in the stand most weeks, in case they are needed for the bench one Saturday.

Saints are making a big mistake here and it's very sad that it sounds like an U17s group that went a full year unbeaten are pretty much all going to be gone come the summer, bar the goalkeeper. Questions need asked about their development since they've gone full-time IMO.

Are any of the 2000/2001 age group getting new deals?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Radford 72 said:

 

I want Saints to produce good young players. Unless the club can paint their vision for the fans then the impression they are giving is that they don't and are instead happy to have have Michael Hart, Michael Doyle, Niall Keown or whoever sitting in the stand most weeks, in case they are needed for the bench one Saturday.

Would you rather have had Niall Keown in the team for a must win match or Ciaran Brian?

It's easy to talk about "wasting money" on reserve players, but it's a risk to rely on your youths as back up. Hamilton's constant struggles and Falkirks demise into the second tier fine examples of what goes wrong when you're dreaming of four or five youth prospects being good enough every year.

If the youth set up below the reserves is remaining as it is, I cant see how anyone can claim Saints are giving up on developing players. I also dont see how a decent season in an U17 league somehow corresponds to them all being good enough a few years later, the footballing world is filled with young players who perform well at youth level, then never make the jump. It was 3 years ago they managed that for the U17s, if they've not developed enough to be kept on that cant be laid entirely at the clubs door, they maybe just aren't good enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

Would you rather have had Niall Keown in the team for a must win match or Ciaran Brian?

It's easy to talk about "wasting money" on reserve players, but it's a risk to rely on your youths as back up. Hamilton's constant struggles and Falkirks demise into the second tier fine examples of what goes wrong when you're dreaming of four or five youth prospects being good enough every year.

If the youth set up below the reserves is remaining as it is, I cant see how anyone can claim Saints are giving up on developing players. I also dont see how a decent season in an U17 league somehow corresponds to them all being good enough a few years later, the footballing world is filled with young players who perform well at youth level, then never make the jump. It was 3 years ago they managed that for the U17s, if they've not developed enough to be kept on that cant be laid entirely at the clubs door, they maybe just aren't good enough.

you keep saying the kids ,let me tell you this it aint the kids ,you have to be extra special to get to first team on a regular basis at 17 18 even 19 or 20 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, sevcozombie2 said:

you keep saying the kids ,let me tell you this it aint the kids ,you have to be extra special to get to first team on a regular basis at 17 18 even 19 or 20 

I disagree, I think 18 is the age players should showing whether they're good enough to have a future with us.

Are you expecting Saints to keep every single youngster until 21?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ye because saints have always had a conveyor  belt of 17 and 18 year olds over the decades nearly at first team level ,put it this way when you have coaches and first team players scratching their had at why there is no reserves and why some boys have been released you have to wonder whats going on ,and many an excellent player got dumped by saints years ago when Tommy Campbell ran the youths because they wernt west coast ,and no you wouldn't keep all the players ,but you know who has an excellent chance at making it if the proper coaching is applied along with a load off other things . one other thing this is not a knee jerk reaction from me ,there is nothing more than id want than too see him play first team for saints i know he s not at that level just now but there has been many a coach and pros say that he will get to that level ,i am also realistic if he was as bad as hes being made out to be and i saw it then id say it just wasn't to be ,,i along with other parents trust clubs to give proper coaching ,proper feedback positive coaching etc ,rows when deserved and help when not sure ,not slated every time they go on pitch to their teammates in the dugout and no help or guidance from the sidelines remember they are kids doing apprenticeships expecting qualified coaches and others to bring out the best in them and took look forward to work what they dont expect is to be blamed for every little thing and slated for it when the proper thing to do is teach them how not to make mistakes 

Edited by sevcozombie2
to much info

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've  seen your laddie play, he's decent,  bit small but good technique and can dictate play(I also like wee ollie too, good jeanfield lads). The thing is we have an Irish u21 and the lad McCann ahead of them, then about 8 first team players all fighting for 4-5 spots. It's not nice but there isn't room for them all, someone had to go just so happens it's the most dispensible, the young lads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, RandomGuy said:

Would you rather have had Niall Keown in the team for a must win match or Ciaran Brian?

It's easy to talk about "wasting money" on reserve players, but it's a risk to rely on your youths as back up. Hamilton's constant struggles and Falkirks demise into the second tier fine examples of what goes wrong when you're dreaming of four or five youth prospects being good enough every year.

If the youth set up below the reserves is remaining as it is, I cant see how anyone can claim Saints are giving up on developing players. I also dont see how a decent season in an U17 league somehow corresponds to them all being good enough a few years later, the footballing world is filled with young players who perform well at youth level, then never make the jump. It was 3 years ago they managed that for the U17s, if they've not developed enough to be kept on that cant be laid entirely at the clubs door, they maybe just aren't good enough.

I'd like Saints to build a structure where the young players are good enough to step in. Liam Gordon did it in an important cup game at Aberdeen a couple of seasons ago. Is it unreasonable to think we could have a defender or two, a midfielder or two and a forward capable of doing that? I don't think so.

Hamilton struggle because they have one of the lowest budgets in the league. The fact they play youths and survive is a positive and not the negative you've just painted it as. And were Falkirk not doing well until they ditched their academy? Filling their squad with shite from England certainly hasn't served them better. I think both those clubs are/were good examples of how to run an academy. 

I pretty much disagree with you on every aspect of this. To have a group of players that don't lose a game in a year and have no outfield player make the grade is a very poor reflection on the development pathway. Are we really to believe that if they were good enough to beat anyone put in front of them at that level that not a SINGLE one of them is good enough to make it into our first team squad? 

Trying to paint this as simply frustrated parents letting off steam is unfair. These guys are seeing our youth system and handling of young professionals at first hand and are making good points that deserve more respect. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, andy rhodes fancy watch said:

I've  seen your laddie play, he's decent,  bit small but good technique and can dictate play(I also like wee ollie too, good jeanfield lads). The thing is we have an Irish u21 and the lad McCann ahead of them, then about 8 first team players all fighting for 4-5 spots. It's not nice but there isn't room for them all, someone had to go just so happens it's the most dispensible, the young lads.

yep i understand that pal and totally agree ,think the talk has gone off track boys will go out on loan but the fact they are getting rid of the reserves makes it harder for every player at the club ,i did have a big rant up about what has been going on but deleted it as was written in anger but was all totally true ,this season has been  a disaster for the 18s all of them ,i can accept the lad getting released if the coaching tactics feed back etc and with every player treated the same and individually helped with the position they play in ,this helps all the players specially the better ones and also shows a coach that cares about these boys and how he can positively help their careers plus his own ,what i cant accept is the same mistakes every week   from players and nothing is said to help them but also to help the rest of the team ,a team is 16 17 players not two ,also the way they way they are talked too is an absolute disgrace ,believe me all is not well up there and truly believe me its not because they are getting let go ,so my rants or talks on this subject is not because hes getting let go its because of the attitude of st johnstone and in particular one person who i hear is a very nice person away from the game but does not know how to work with youth and blames them for everything and takes no responsibility himself ,we are going to jeanfield tomorrow could be a full circle  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and as for falkirk the screwed up by merging with stenny and then being funded by the sfa as soon as the three years funding was up and paul hartley came in it was bye bye academy ,if you ever get to go in the tunnel at falkirk you will see photos off every academy player that has played in the first team there was over thirty last time i was there and that was 3 years ago plus they sold an 18 year old to Norwich and he had played less than ten first team games  for a million .when training or games were on falkirk managers would show up all the time ,Alex smith was always there helping the young ones and giving them advice it was actually him that put my lad as a number ten and told me he reminded him of his mate ,i asked who that was and he said billy bremnar ,he excelled in the number ten position thanks to alex smith stephen pressley kenny shiels and latter mick mcardle ,but after two games this season my lad was told there is no fecking way you will ever be a number ten there is loads more but i dont want to be seen as a bitter parent ,but most parents from the team could tell you a story 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, sevcozombie2 said:

and as for falkirk the screwed up by merging with stenny and then being funded by the sfa as soon as the three years funding was up and paul hartley came in it was bye bye academy ,if you ever get to go in the tunnel at falkirk you will see photos off every academy player that has played in the first team there was over thirty last time i was there and that was 3 years ago plus they sold an 18 year old to Norwich and he had played less than ten first team games  for a million .when training or games were on falkirk managers would show up all the time ,Alex smith was always there helping the young ones and giving them advice it was actually him that put my lad as a number ten and told me he reminded him of his mate ,i asked who that was and he said billy bremnar ,he excelled in the number ten position thanks to alex smith stephen pressley kenny shiels and latter mick mcardle ,but after two games this season my lad was told there is no fecking way you will ever be a number ten there is loads more but i dont want to be seen as a bitter parent ,but most parents from the team could tell you a story 

To be fair I think you have said enough and made some pointed remarks towards club coaches. 

Surely it would be best for your son that you are not saying these things on a public forum. 

Hope your boy gets sorted out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless people are prepared to speak out about grievances then nothing will change.

If the only players with contracts for next year are the ones that signed for two years then it doesn't reflect well on the coach that he can't develop a single one of them enough to get a new deal. Very poor. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mainstand said:

To be fair I think you have said enough and made some pointed remarks towards club coaches. 

Surely it would be best for your son that you are not saying these things on a public forum. 

Hope your boy gets sorted out.

this has nothing to do with my son this is me giving my honest opion to saints fans who pay there cash every year too saints ,its a sad day when you cant call out someone for there actions ,if someone from here goes back and tells them that says more about them ,put it his way when gerry craney took them they all loved it he was so good with them they played their hearts out knowing if they made a mistake they would be helped so as not to do it again ,fast forward a season if they make a mistake they are called cnts or told they are sht and are useless and in some case told get ur bag and fck off ,so me as a rangers fan really shouldnt give a shite whats going on at your club but as an x youth coach of 16 years i defo give a shit about how kids are taught and treated and thats at every club where ever it may be 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Radford 72 said:

Trying to paint this as simply frustrated parents letting off steam is unfair. These guys are seeing our youth system and handling of young professionals at first hand and are making good points that deserve more respect. 

While this might be true, (although I’d argue that someone posting WATP on a St Johnstone forum doesn’t deserve too much respect), it’s also a very (subconsciously) biased perspective.

Essentially calling one of our coaches a bully on a public forum is a big accusation and I’d be extremely wary about how much that opinion is clouded by the decisions made at the club in regards to releasing players. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Radford 72 said:

I'd like Saints to build a structure where the young players are good enough to step in. Liam Gordon did it in an important cup game at Aberdeen a couple of seasons ago. Is it unreasonable to think we could have a defender or two, a midfielder or two and a forward capable of doing that? I don't think so.

Hamilton struggle because they have one of the lowest budgets in the league. The fact they play youths and survive is a positive and not the negative you've just painted it as. And were Falkirk not doing well until they ditched their academy? Filling their squad with shite from England certainly hasn't served them better. I think both those clubs are/were good examples of how to run an academy. 

I pretty much disagree with you on every aspect of this. To have a group of players that don't lose a game in a year and have no outfield player make the grade is a very poor reflection on the development pathway. Are we really to believe that if they were good enough to beat anyone put in front of them at that level that not a SINGLE one of them is good enough to make it into our first team squad? 

Trying to paint this as simply frustrated parents letting off steam is unfair. These guys are seeing our youth system and handling of young professionals at first hand and are making good points that deserve more respect. 

Everyone wants us to have youths coming through and into our first team, I regularly say that's a dream. Doesn't mean we should just blindly stick by them though. If they aren't good enough they aren't good enough.

Liam Gordon was 20, have almost 40 senior appearances and has played multiple times for Hearts when he was "chucked in", let's not pretend he was an untested youth we'd developed. It's not even comparable to suggest because hes been a success we should be playing 18yo players who've never played a senior game. Theres an argument reserve football is holding them back, as otherwise the better ones would've been playing at lower levels by now.

Hamilton fans regularly moan about how shite youngsters get played simply because they came through the system, and not because they're good enough. Falkirk were dossing about in the Championship before they ditched their academy, they struggled this year because they relied on signings through an agency without watching some of the players. 

The undefeated side contained Ross Sinclair, who's in the first team. It also contains the likes of O'Reilly and Struthers who've been loaned out and are playing senior football. I'm sure theres another two who have been out playing senior football too, so theres 5 of that squad who are now playing, or around, first team senior squads at some level. How many are you expecting to make it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Radford 72 said:

I think the posts from those with first hand experience of the academy and U18s are a valuable contribution to the forum and certainly deserve more respect than they are often given.

I want Saints to produce good young players. Unless the club can paint their vision for the fans then the impression they are giving is that they don't and are instead happy to have have Michael Hart, Michael Doyle, Niall Keown or whoever sitting in the stand most weeks, in case they are needed for the bench one Saturday.

Saints are making a big mistake here and it's very sad that it sounds like an U17s group that went a full year unbeaten are pretty much all going to be gone come the summer, bar the goalkeeper. Questions need asked about their development since they've gone full-time IMO.

Are any of the 2000/2001 age group getting new deals?

There are always 2 sides to a story and you are only hearing one side here, we are only hearing one side here.

Edited by mainstand

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, rik2304 said:

Who are the coaches involved at this level?

From what I have seen Alan Maybury is the main coach of the kids that are on full time contracts. There is also a full time sports scientist and another young coach. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

Everyone wants us to have youths coming through and into our first team, I regularly say that's a dream. Doesn't mean we should just blindly stick by them though. If they aren't good enough they aren't good enough.

Liam Gordon was 20, have almost 40 senior appearances and has played multiple times for Hearts when he was "chucked in", let's not pretend he was an untested youth we'd developed. It's not even comparable to suggest because hes been a success we should be playing 18yo players who've never played a senior game. Theres an argument reserve football is holding them back, as otherwise the better ones would've been playing at lower levels by now.

Hamilton fans regularly moan about how shite youngsters get played simply because they came through the system, and not because they're good enough. Falkirk were dossing about in the Championship before they ditched their academy, they struggled this year because they relied on signings through an agency without watching some of the players. 

The undefeated side contained Ross Sinclair, who's in the first team. It also contains the likes of O'Reilly and Struthers who've been loaned out and are playing senior football. I'm sure theres another two who have been out playing senior football too, so theres 5 of that squad who are now playing, or around, first team senior squads at some level. How many are you expecting to make it?

Making things up might work for you in some circumstances but Liam Gordon's multiple appearances for Hearts consisted of one Challenge Cup game and a substitute appearance against Stenhousemuir. He played just over 120 minutes of football for them. He went on loan at 19 and had played around 20 games in League Two before Tommy Wright threw him in against Aberdeen for his second Saints appearance. 

That is a clear development pathway and whilst I completely accept you don't just keep players for the sake of, we should be capable of taking a group as good as our 1999s to 2001s and be able to develop more than just a goalkeeper (coached separately) and Ali McCann. If we can't produce anything from that group, I'd about-face and question the point of the academy at all. I don't want them thrown in the team at 17 or 18 but I expect at least a few of them to at least make the first team squad for assessment and not be released en masse. Playing for Broomhill Sports Club Glasgow doesn't constitute making it and shouldn't be viewed as any sort of success for our academy, unless it's as part of their longer-term development with St Johnstone.

Falkirk have dossed around the Championship (or lower) for most seasons (33/44) since reconstruction, that's their level. They weren't being held back by playing young players! I'm repeating that point and the same applies to Hamilton. You are painting these clubs as somehow suffering because they play(ed) youngsters when the truth is very much the opposite! 

If your dream really is to have youngsters coming through then I'd have thought you'd be far more concerned about the reasons why it isn't happening rather than the resigned defeatism on display and dismissing and mocking constructive posts as bitter or angry parents airing grievances. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Radford 72 said:

Making things up might work for you in some circumstances but Liam Gordon's multiple appearances for Hearts consisted of one Challenge Cup game and a substitute appearance against Stenhousemuir. He played just over 120 minutes of football for them. He went on loan at 19 and had played around 20 games in League Two before Tommy Wright threw him in against Aberdeen for his second Saints appearance. 

That is a clear development pathway and whilst I completely accept you don't just keep players for the sake of, we should be capable of taking a group as good as our 1999s to 2001s and be able to develop more than just a goalkeeper (coached separately) and Ali McCann. If we can't produce anything from that group, I'd about-face and question the point of the academy at all. I don't want them thrown in the team at 17 or 18 but I expect at least a few of them to at least make the first team squad for assessment and not be released en masse. Playing for Broomhill Sports Club Glasgow doesn't constitute making it and shouldn't be viewed as any sort of success for our academy, unless it's as part of their longer-term development with St Johnstone.

Falkirk have dossed around the Championship (or lower) for most seasons (33/44) since reconstruction, that's their level. They weren't being held back by playing young players! I'm repeating that point and the same applies to Hamilton. You are painting these clubs as somehow suffering because they play(ed) youngsters when the truth is very much the opposite! 

If your dream really is to have youngsters coming through then I'd have thought you'd be far more concerned about the reasons why it isn't happening rather than the resigned defeatism on display and dismissing and mocking constructive posts as bitter or angry parents airing grievances. 

Point about Gordon stands, he'd shown enough for a lower league team to loan him, and play him, and for Hearts to give him a chance.

That's ideal. You loan players out at 17/18/19 and work them up to your level, and/or they're already ready for your level by that stage. Sinclair, McCann, and even the loanees in Glasgow are starting down that path. It gives the club a real chance to evaluate them in the game.

The rest must not be good enough, you cant lay that entirely at the clubs door. Reserve league maybe meant some of that squad were kept around purely for numbers, instead of getting a chance lower down the divisions, which would develop them more, but either way theres been plenty of young players who have made it at Saints. Do you not find it bizarre how theres not been a single complaint from anyone until the day their kids get told they're not being kept on?

Budget is being cut next season, something you're well aware of. If cuts are being made, it's better to spend the money on the first team than the youths. Hamilton and Falkirk done the opposite, Hamilton fight relegation every season while Falkirk dream of getting promoted, I'd rather see no youngsters in the first team and be fighting for the top half than have a squad full of home grown players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been around the pro youth reserve football with my lad for a good number of years  never involved at saints, but hibs and dunfermline and berwick reserves, the coaching standards vary considerably and sometimes luck of the draw who you get. The new reserve league what I saw wasnt great at the second tier level, my lad decided himself just to return to east of scotland league second half of the season and is loving it, and most weeks come across a lot of boys released by the big clubs, maybe that's their level maybe not, sometimes they need a lucky break, yeah as above travelled miles and miles and you would love them to make it, but being realistic not going to happen to the majority and now my lad playing and enjoying his football again rather than sit about as Jersey fillers at pro teams and wait for a dream that ain't happening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this