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Radford 72

Reserve League News 2018/19

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49 minutes ago, Tranmere Saintee said:

Are Saints the only club to have come to this decision?

Was talking to a Falkirk supporting friend, who agreed with me when it happened, that the biggest mistake they ever made was abandoning their brilliant youth academy.

They have now paid out for 2 full teams of players this season plus a new manager, have no youngsters coming through and are looking very likely to be relegated with the run in they have.

I dont think Falkirks problems are down to not having a youth academy. Kevin O'Hara came through when they still did, is still at the club, but is a joke figure as hes so poor.

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Another bizarre stance above, to pick out Kevin O'Hara from a club that produced Kinglsey, Fulton, McGrandles etc...

Three benefits of the academy that come immediately to mind:

Best chance of club gaining the services of a top class player that can be sold for significant money.

Negates the need to sign players like Hart, Doyle, Krachunov and the likes if you have a good youth system. Boys who take money for nothing.

Creates a good community link if you give the best local young players a platform.

There will be more. What are the negatives? It costs a bit of money? The sale of Davidson, Griffin, Scott and McAnespie over 20 years ago is probably still covering the cost of running it if need be.

Until we know and the club illustrate their vision, this is a very poor move.

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22 minutes ago, Radford 72 said:

Another bizarre stance above, to pick out Kevin O'Hara from a club that produced Kinglsey, Fulton, McGrandles etc...

Three benefits of the academy that come immediately to mind:

Best chance of club gaining the services of a top class player that can be sold for significant money.

Negates the need to sign players like Hart, Doyle, Krachunov and the likes if you have a good youth system. Boys who take money for nothing.

Creates a good community link if you give the best local young players a platform.

There will be more. What are the negatives? It costs a bit of money? The sale of Davidson, Griffin, Scott and McAnespie over 20 years ago is probably still covering the cost of running it if need be.

Until we know and the club illustrate their vision, this is a very poor move.

What's the highest age group we'll have playing "competitive" games if the reserves vanish?

I'm entirely convinced U18 squad -> lower league loan -> first team is a better pathway than having 20yo "kids" trapped in the reserves because we need the numbers.

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1 hour ago, Radford 72 said:

Another bizarre stance above, to pick out Kevin O'Hara from a club that produced Kinglsey, Fulton, McGrandles etc...

Three benefits of the academy that come immediately to mind:

Best chance of club gaining the services of a top class player that can be sold for significant money.

Negates the need to sign players like Hart, Doyle, Krachunov and the likes if you have a good youth system. Boys who take money for nothing.

Creates a good community link if you give the best local young players a platform.

There will be more. What are the negatives? It costs a bit of money? The sale of Davidson, Griffin, Scott and McAnespie over 20 years ago is probably still covering the cost of running it if need be.

Until we know and the club illustrate their vision, this is a very poor move.

You need to appreciate that RandomGuy has done extensive research on this by watching some highlights in Saints TV.

He has extensive knowledge of any football matter you care to mention including Falkirk's youth academy (in particular the career of Kevin O'Hara) and this knowledge even extends to the managerial techniques of Nigel Pearson and his penchant for falling out with certain players so he could show his authority in the dressing room :wink:

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46 minutes ago, andy rhodes fancy watch said:

Please don't ever include Kane alongside actual football players we've produced. Boys an imposter. 

He averages a goal every 330 top flight minutes. He is, technically, a 1 in 3 striker.

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1 hour ago, RandomGuy said:

Also worth mentioning our best recent "graduates" are Clark, Kerr, Kane and May.

What's the common link in their development?

Assuming you are alluding to them going out on loan during the farcical Under 21 reserve league era, another of Scottish footballs shooting them selves in the foot moments.

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9 minutes ago, Tranmere Saintee said:

Assuming you are alluding to them going out on loan during the farcical Under 21 reserve league era, another of Scottish footballs shooting them selves in the foot moments.

Yup, I genuinely believe playing in the lower leagues has helped them reach the level they have. They'll have learned so much more from those loans than playing reserve games.

Project Brave has killed any chance of clubs our size having genuine, extensive, youth systems, with the bizarre scenario of making the number of coaches at the club the most important factor. 

If the system is now U18 squad, then either loaned out or released, then it's not fair on those who maybe haven't had the chance to prove themselves in the U18s to be released so early, and it means we'll miss out on some late bloomers, but if it allows more money to then be directed towards future U18 squads, then that can only be a benefit.

We shouldn't be looking at 19yo players being too young for the first team.

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31 minutes ago, garydavidson said:

Half of them only got in the first team because injury forced Tommy's hand?

I doubt that's true.

He played Nortcott ahead of Swanson against Dundee.

Last season Mannus was dropped after three defeats, and 7 goals conceded, and Clark got his chance. Clark then got injured and Mannus came back in.

Jason Kerr came back in January last season and went straight into the first team, we mostly played a back three. Once we back to a four, Anderson dropped out, and not through injury. Kerr was even sent off, but was still straight back in the team.

Stevie May was offered out on loan before TW came in. TW persuaded him to stay as he wanted him to play a part. Story goes we didn't want to start him against Rosenberg as we wanted to playnoen up front, but he was clearly going to get a chance as a starter when we played with two up front, the managers preferred formation that season.

Chris Kane came straight back from loan last January and also went into the team.

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On 4/12/2019 at 7:17 PM, RandomGuy said:

Also worth mentioning our best recent "graduates" are Clark, Kerr, Kane and May.

What's the common link in their development?

Clark joined at 14

Kerr joined at 15

Kane joined at 14

the only “real” academy graduate is May

You can be a real a condescending so and so sometimes, there are kids who have given up half their lives to be a football player devastated and families who have spent thousands of £s supporting them, now saying was it worth it?

It is difficult enough getting kids out to play let alone play football these days. The ones that do see the EPL and think it’s like that where the reality in Scotland it is the total opposite.

If you look at England, the USA and Australia they would take a young Scottish player over any other in terms of attitude, fitness and desire however they lack the same technique as other nationalities. That’s not the kids fault it’s the way the Scottish clubs coach them.

It’s not a surprise that the best Scotland team available mostly has players who have come from one or two of the best Scottish Academies or came through at a English academy.

For example a few years back Saints 2000s were playing football that was very attractive and ripping teams apart. Then they went to u17s and it fell apart with running, tackling and long balls to the big boys being the norm. This was to try and prepare them for the 1st team, why not carry on with the technique so in the future the 1st team can play attractive football?

So I suggest to any youth Academy kid u16 take what you can then move on at 16 to England or elsewhere. 

Scottish Football is fkd and until there is a radical change always will be.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 4/13/2019 at 9:29 AM, RandomGuy said:

I doubt that's true.

He played Nortcott ahead of Swanson against Dundee.

Last season Mannus was dropped after three defeats, and 7 goals conceded, and Clark got his chance. Clark then got injured and Mannus came back in.

Jason Kerr came back in January last season and went straight into the first team, we mostly played a back three. Once we back to a four, Anderson dropped out, and not through injury. Kerr was even sent off, but was still straight back in the team.

Stevie May was offered out on loan before TW came in. TW persuaded him to stay as he wanted him to play a part. Story goes we didn't want to start him against Rosenberg as we wanted to playnoen up front, but he was clearly going to get a chance as a starter when we played with two up front, the managers preferred formation that season.

Chris Kane came straight back from loan last January and also went into the team.

He played Northcott because other clubs are sniffing, the same happened with Robertson last year.

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23 minutes ago, sasha said:

Clark joined at 14

Kerr joined at 15

Kane joined at 14

the only “real” academy graduate is May

You can be a real a condescending so and so sometimes, there are kids who have given up half their lives to be a football player devastated and families who have spent thousands of £s supporting them, now saying was it worth it?

I mean, not every kid is going to make it, if they aren't good enough, then they aren't good enough.

FWIW I doubt theres a single player on the planet who hasn't suffered a rejection at some point, Andy Robertson was punted out the senior game at a young age, its not the end of the line unless you choose it to be.

The club has to look after the club, it's not fair, but at the end of the day they gain nothing from keeping on players who they dont think will make it.

Your point about how our best three graduates weren't even through our own system backs up their stance.

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2 hours ago, sasha said:

Clark joined at 14

Kerr joined at 15

Kane joined at 14

the only “real” academy graduate is May

So? That's normal practice, has been for years and I'd class under 15s to first team as being developed. 

2 hours ago, sasha said:

For example a few years back Saints 2000s were playing football that was very attractive and ripping teams apart. Then they went to u17s and it fell apart with running, tackling and long balls to the big boys being the norm. This was to try and prepare them for the 1st team, why not carry on with the technique so in the future the 1st team can play attractive football?

This I agree with but it's the whole of Scottish football that needs changing, from the way the SFA is run right down to the very bottom.

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On 4/12/2019 at 3:58 PM, Radford 72 said:

Another bizarre stance above, to pick out Kevin O'Hara from a club that produced Kinglsey, Fulton, McGrandles etc...

Three benefits of the academy that come immediately to mind:

Best chance of club gaining the services of a top class player that can be sold for significant money.

Negates the need to sign players like Hart, Doyle, Krachunov and the likes if you have a good youth system. Boys who take money for nothing.

Creates a good community link if you give the best local young players a platform.

There will be more. What are the negatives? It costs a bit of money? The sale of Davidson, Griffin, Scott and McAnespie over 20 years ago is probably still covering the cost of running it if need be.

Until we know and the club illustrate their vision, this is a very poor move.

I think you could add Keown & many others that I can't remember to Doyle,Hart & Krackoneoff who we have wasted money.

Brown keeps on backing Tommy with money but don't think it can go on.

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Think its worth noting that we are not talking about 18/19/20 year old kids. Those who are being released are 17 as the last age group they can now play at with Saints is U18's (current 2001 crop). So its a loan move, first team or out if you are 17. Second, we are assuming that the money saved from the reserves will be spent on the Academy. It wont. Wait for another McMIllan signing instead of funding the youth. The reserve team costs nothing. Its made up of first team squad members who aren't selected on the Saturday and some £500 a month youth team players. What exactly is the vision and what are the reasons. I've heard many promises about friendlies / infrastructure / investment and still not seen any evidence of it. Guys like Maybury thrown in at the deep end and told to get on with it. Compare this to the likes of Hearts - the Academy is the biggest project in their inventory every year. Annual budget of around £150K.

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2 hours ago, BigKerno said:

Think its worth noting that we are not talking about 18/19/20 year old kids. Those who are being released are 17 as the last age group they can now play at with Saints is U18's (current 2001 crop). So its a loan move, first team or out if you are 17. Second, we are assuming that the money saved from the reserves will be spent on the Academy. It wont. Wait for another McMIllan signing instead of funding the youth. The reserve team costs nothing. Its made up of first team squad members who aren't selected on the Saturday and some £500 a month youth team players. What exactly is the vision and what are the reasons. I've heard many promises about friendlies / infrastructure / investment and still not seen any evidence of it. Guys like Maybury thrown in at the deep end and told to get on with it. Compare this to the likes of Hearts - the Academy is the biggest project in their inventory every year. Annual budget of around £150K.

So what you are saying is that the cost of physios, coaches and travel dont count and we are not paying anything for these 17 games. Oh and pitch hire about £250 a game when we hire astro pitches at stadium. 

Pretty sure that Saints were spending over £100k on the academy set up a few years back. Just look at the full time staff that they have on the books.

 

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3 hours ago, BigKerno said:

Think its worth noting that we are not talking about 18/19/20 year old kids. Those who are being released are 17 as the last age group they can now play at with Saints is U18's (current 2001 crop). So its a loan move, first team or out if you are 17. Second, we are assuming that the money saved from the reserves will be spent on the Academy. It wont. Wait for another McMIllan signing instead of funding the youth. The reserve team costs nothing. Its made up of first team squad members who aren't selected on the Saturday and some £500 a month youth team players. What exactly is the vision and what are the reasons. I've heard many promises about friendlies / infrastructure / investment and still not seen any evidence of it. Guys like Maybury thrown in at the deep end and told to get on with it. Compare this to the likes of Hearts - the Academy is the biggest project in their inventory every year. Annual budget of around £150K.

Project Brave means more money spent on the U18 squads and below. If you dont comply with Project Brave you won't attract youth prospects.

To sustain those squads, the first team needs to be making money by league finishes/cup runs. Better competition in terms of league teams means more money has to be spent on the first team.

Money needs cut somewhere, and the middle ground is the best place for that.

We'll never ever compete with Hearts in terms of money. Utter delusion to compare the two.

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Are you seriously suggesting that St Johnstone shouldn't aspire to have a similar Academy to Hearts? Why? Project Brave only means more money spent if you want to be considered in the top tier of Academys - which Saints aren't because......yes you guessed it, they wont spend the money. Its about coaches and facilities. You need to be part of Project Brave to have an Academy in the first place so the argument about attracting players is irrelevant. Why does money need to be cut anywhere? I assume to have this view you understand the finances at play here - especially as the full time kids are being paid £500 a month. Ridiculous to suggest money should be cut from a playing budget that is already at the bottom end of the pay scale. I would rather not have signed McMIllan, Swanson and maybe one other (as examples) and pay for a decent Academy. How much was spent on the young guy from Ipswich?

There will be 7 full time "kids" next season with a few more joining from the U18's (if they are lucky). Do these 11 or 12 kids train as a group or are they part of the first team? What tactics do you teach kids that aren't playing regularly for the team that they are supposed to be registered with? How do you assess them? Do you send scouts across Scotland to their loan clubs because Saints wont. That's ludicrous. There is no plan and no strategy. It's indefensible.

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wow where to begin ,well first off right now saints are playing Aberdeen and 8 players in the squad have been told they are not getting a new contract plus not one member of the first team is playing today or in squad .

today ill probably mostly talk as a dad  off a lad who has been told he just missed out on a new contract due to the limited contracts being handed out as they're no st johnstone reserves next season ,but at the end of the season ill post up here as someone that has been on three sfa courses coached for 16 years ,watched football for over 40 and followed pro youth for ten years .

if u can all cast your minds to last season MR BROWN spoke to the press how he was not in favor of the reserves to few games blah blah blah ,but he also said that the previous season he felt he had to many full time players and with the new u18 team comprising of full time players he had way to many full timers now .

so how was the 18s received by the club and its supporters ,you will all remember them getting a write up in the press about the next crop of saints youngsters to go full time which is every youngsters dream ,you will have seen their photos all suited and booted as they were treated to hospitality ,you will remember the team photo with them all wearing the very latest saints strip or the individual photos and the request for sponsorship ,you will recall all the highlights of there games on saints tv and their after match interviews ,the days you kept checking twitter to see the latest scores in whatever game they were playing ,you will remember the new manager who took them over and also the reserves and helped with the first team even though most clubs have a separate u18s manager ,this will be the only one you remember because none of the rest happend .so play for a club that really shows not much interest in you but as a parent you tell the lad work hard listen and learn as you will have the reserves this season its a big step up and the sfa have did the right thing to bridge the gap for you all .has it worked has it hell they took the age limit away so saints have used a lot of first teamers and boys who should be learning the next level have missed out .

But why are saints getting rid of the reserves ,i know for a fact that there has many clubs been meeting and discussing tweaking the reserves for next season as its not delivering on what they hoped it would so surly saints would  want to wait on the outcome of that before deciding ,it cant be the cost of it all as saints budget for tenth every season so any position above that is a bonus ,its not as one person suggested  that they are not good enough to be professional ,infact i do not no one trade or business who would write a 17 year old off as having no future there after only spending one year in higher job ,when most people know that most footballers improve one hundred fold with age and experience.

so as to date no reason why they are getting rid of them and who decided they were ,do you actually think that tommy and the rest of the coaches said you no what lets get rid of the reserves and we will try and get some kids out on loan,but wait tommy you have a big squad how do they keep match fit ,what if murry gets injured and is out for a month odd   ,how do we xplain to kids if your not near first team at 17 your out .

so ye im pissed about all ths my lad is in aberdeen starting only his third reserve game and this is after being told bye bye by tommy but do i blame him? not really as i think this has been taking right out of his hands ,so what do you want for your club ah tenth is ok we have been batting above our station for a while now and we are back where we belong ,everything is so negative at saints just now including most but not all of the fans ,demand better from your club or it might just keep slipping down and down 

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1 hour ago, sevcozombie2 said:

demand better from your club or it might just keep slipping down and down 

Type of chat you get from fans who dont understand how quickly finances turn sour. 

Theres a fine line for teams like Saints and money needs distributed smartly, we cant chuck 50% of all our yearly income into 17yo players, as theres a high chance that money never comes back. Most never rise to make any notable contribution, never mind make the money back through transfers. For every Kerr/May you have a million who fail to ever make the grade. 

Spending more money on the senior squad allows more income, more income means more money spent on youth coaching.

17/18 is the age players should be looking to be getting first team games, somewhere.

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