Steve Brown - doing a good job?

[Valentino Bolognese]

10 minutes ago, slf said:

I forgot about third Lanark,

they aren't playing on Saturday  or are they ?

 

all those clubs put there fans through hell.

 

no ones  arguing with you.am laughing at your idea of some white knight coming along spunking   wads of cash  and all will be braw.

 

I never mentioned fan ownership . 

My memory's a bit sketchy but wasn't 3rd Lanark fraud? 

To just to be 100% clear, what I am saying is that for the Brown family it's surely better to be actively looking for investors now, when the club is relatively financially healthy, as all the indications are that we're not going to be in a position to be challenging for top 6 or even Premiership football if we continue the way we're going. Who knows, maybe they are doing that, it would explain not spending money on players. 

I'm not saying we're going to get a saviour ride to our rescue, of course that's naive. But the idea that we should just all stand around and accept decline because 'it's been a good few years' really boils my piss. It reeks of giving up. And it's not 'wads of cash' we need, we just need to keep pace with (current) competition and we don't seem able or willing to do that. 

[blueheaven]

I find it weird that over the course of this thread people have convinced themselves that the club apparently wants to get relegated (ridiculous) and has stopped spending money so that it can be sold (none of the recent investment in the team throughout last season backs that argument at all, and neither does the fact that we offered Stevie May a bloody good deal that would apparently have made him our highest paid player ever) and that somehow a Championship club is a better investment for an outsider than a struggling Premier League one (why?? and besides, we're not a struggling Premier League club - since promotion, we haven't had a single season where we've struggled or been in a relegation fight).

Also frightening that people think some moneybags investor would be the answer for Saints, after all the club has been through and all we've seen other Scottish clubs go through.

Is there a single example of a big-money outsider rocking up at a small Scottish club and it ending well?

[Cagey]

1 hour ago, slf said:

rangers

motherwell

dundee

Airdrie /Clydebank

hearts

Livingston

all went bust .wheres there fuqing rich investor spunking wads for fun and kudos.

 

fuq I would rather have a club and be part time than be a fan of these clubs. 

How could you forget the daddy of them all Gretna.

[pringles]

7 minutes ago, blueheaven said:

I find it weird that over the course of this thread people have convinced themselves that the club apparently wants to get relegated (ridiculous) and has stopped spending money so that it can be sold (none of the recent investment in the team throughout last season backs that argument at all, and neither does the fact that we offered Stevie May a bloody good deal that would apparently have made him our highest paid player ever) and that somehow a Championship club is a better investment for an outsider than a struggling Premier League one (why?? and besides, we're not a struggling Premier League club - since promotion, we haven't had a single season where we've struggled or been in a relegation fight).

Also frightening that people think some moneybags investor would be the answer for Saints, after all the club has been through and all we've seen other Scottish clubs go through.

Is there a single example of a big-money outsider rocking up at a small Scottish club and it ending well?

No there isn't but if you go back to the last time we were relegated ,Geoff himself admitted we should have spent more money to avoid being relegated rather than spend four years in the economic hell hole which is the Championship I will be even worse if we are relegated as we are going to miss out on increased TV money.

I would agree that nobody in the club wants to be relegated but relegation may occur by default due to a series of poor financial decisions particularly in the transfer market

[sasha]

Be better going to watch Jeanfield or Kinnoull, half the price of entry, better football and enthusiastic fans.

[Cagey]

16 minutes ago, pringles said:

No there isn't but if you go back to the last time we were relegated ,Geoff himself admitted we should have spent more money to avoid being relegated rather than spend four years in the economic hell hole which is the Championship I will be even worse if we are relegated as we are going to miss out on increased TV money.

I would agree that nobody in the club wants to be relegated but relegation may occur by default due to a series of poor financial decisions particularly in the transfer market

As long as BBC Scotland survives there will be more championship live football than premiership.

[Cagey]

18 minutes ago, sasha said:

Be better going to watch Jeanfield or Kinnoull, half the price of entry, better football and enthusiastic fans.

Sasha,your bitterness is getting out of hand. I had a lot of sympathy with your comments but you are overdoing it.

[slf]

16 minutes ago, Cagey said:

How could you forget the daddy of them all Gretna.

aye corker , thanks for that .

 

 

[Valentino Bolognese]

10 minutes ago, blueheaven said:

I find it weird that over the course of this thread people have convinced themselves that the club apparently wants to get relegated (ridiculous) and has stopped spending money so that it can be sold (none of the recent investment in the team throughout last season backs that argument at all, and neither does the fact that we offered Stevie May a bloody good deal that would apparently have made him our highest paid player ever) and that somehow a Championship club is a better investment for an outsider than a struggling Premier League one (why?? and besides, we're not a struggling Premier League club - since promotion, we haven't had a single season where we've struggled or been in a relegation fight).

Also frightening that people think some moneybags investor would be the answer for Saints, after all the club has been through and all we've seen other Scottish clubs go through.

Is there a single example of a big-money outsider rocking up at a small Scottish club and it ending well?

All the stuff in the first paragraph I completely agree with. I don't think that we're deliberately being geared up to be put on the market. However, they have talked about reducing headcount (players) and a lot of the big assets on the books will be well depreciated by now, and the family have been in charge for a while. Any other business you'd think that it would be at least talking to them if you were on the lookout to buy. My argument is that for Steve, it could be good timing. And as a prudent businessman that he allegedly is there's no way he won't have an exit strategy.

As for investors, again like any other business it absolutely depends on the motivation, and what they want to and expect to get out of it. For example Fergus McCann seems to have had a real love and passion for the club. I'd say that most Celtic fans thought that went fairly well. 

Partick Thistle is interesting. That was a well-meaning fan that pumped a fair bit of his own cash into the club but it mostly seems to have been spent on infrastructure and all that did was help the balance sheet. Not close enough to the detail to say if it's gone 'well' or not but suspect that while it's not been a game changer I don't think it's been actively harmful and they're probably where they would have been anyway but with better training facilities. 

Then there's Ross County who I would argue have done well out of an angel investor, and have definitely over-achieved when you consider that they're a club from a small rural town on the far fringes of a tiny city that can barely support a full-time team itself.

So it's a case by case thing for me, not 'outside money bad, status quo good'. 

At the end of the day Brown himself is an investor. What I'm suggesting is that, essentially, a richer or more willing to invest version of Brown would I think be welcome, possibly necessary. Maybe he's set expectations too high as the club has done so well, helped by others struggling, but if he's not careful the legacy that should be a positive one will turn sour. 

I don't see it as 'splash the cash' vs 'go the way of Gretna'. The middle ground is a bit more investment to keep us in the chasing pack not at the back of the field. 

 

[slf]

16 minutes ago, sasha said:

Be better going to watch Jeanfield or Kinnoull, half the price of entry, better football and enthusiastic fans.

no ,because I would have to put up with you.

 

[Valentino Bolognese]

23 minutes ago, Cagey said:

As long as BBC Scotland survives there will be more championship live football than premiership.

A couple of years at most then?

 

[andy rhodes fancy watch]

52 minutes ago, sasha said:

Be better going to watch Jeanfield or Kinnoull, half the price of entry, better football and enthusiastic fans.

Off you pop then, cheery bye.

[Abernethy Saint]

32 minutes ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

A couple of years at most then?

 

Ooooo I think we can agree on that one.

[garydavidson]

1 hour ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

All the stuff in the first paragraph I completely agree with. I don't think that we're deliberately being geared up to be put on the market. However, they have talked about reducing headcount (players) and a lot of the big assets on the books will be well depreciated by now, and the family have been in charge for a while. Any other business you'd think that it would be at least talking to them if you were on the lookout to buy. My argument is that for Steve, it could be good timing. And as a prudent businessman that he allegedly is there's no way he won't have an exit strategy.

As for investors, again like any other business it absolutely depends on the motivation, and what they want to and expect to get out of it. For example Fergus McCann seems to have had a real love and passion for the club. I'd say that most Celtic fans thought that went fairly well. 

Partick Thistle is interesting. That was a well-meaning fan that pumped a fair bit of his own cash into the club but it mostly seems to have been spent on infrastructure and all that did was help the balance sheet. Not close enough to the detail to say if it's gone 'well' or not but suspect that while it's not been a game changer I don't think it's been actively harmful and they're probably where they would have been anyway but with better training facilities. 

Then there's Ross County who I would argue have done well out of an angel investor, and have definitely over-achieved when you consider that they're a club from a small rural town on the far fringes of a tiny city that can barely support a full-time team itself.

So it's a case by case thing for me, not 'outside money bad, status quo good'. 

At the end of the day Brown himself is an investor. What I'm suggesting is that, essentially, a richer or more willing to invest version of Brown would I think be welcome, possibly necessary. Maybe he's set expectations too high as the club has done so well, helped by others struggling, but if he's not careful the legacy that should be a positive one will turn sour. 

I don't see it as 'splash the cash' vs 'go the way of Gretna'. The middle ground is a bit more investment to keep us in the chasing pack not at the back of the field. 

 

Blueheaven covered most of my thoughts but just a couple of observations on your reply.

The lottery winners at Patrick were only ever interested in helping on the youth and infrastructure side they didn't want money going towards the playing budget. They were keen not to have the club living outside their means which is exactly the same approach Saints go by.

Inverness isn't a wee city, it's bigger than Perth and the reason they struggle with fans stems from the old firm strong hold which took hold when Caley were in the Highland league. These days they struggle for the exact same reasons as Saints.

County will probably have bigger crowds than us this season but they will also have a bigger playing budget as they are bankrolled by a multi millionaire.  If he left they wouldn't go the same way as Gretna but they would have to control the playing budget.

The Browns have said they don't invest any money and that is why we run on a self sufficient basis.  Who knows if they would ask for money if they sold it, the hands it lands in woul be more important to them.

As Blueheaven queried, which clubs in Scotland have benefited from rich investors? Not many. You can't even look at Celtic as that is a whole different ball game.

[RandomGuy]

58 minutes ago, garydavidson said:

The lottery winners at Patrick were only ever interested in helping on the youth and infrastructure side they didn't want money going towards the playing budget. They were keen not to have the club living outside their means which is exactly the same approach Saints go by.

He's apparently a Rangers fan, and hes now pulled all his funding, even the youth stuff, out of the club, because his friend has been taken off the board.

Hes managed to get a stand named after him though...

Shows how petty folk with money can be.

I've slated Brown a lot the past few days, but I'd rather the way he runs it than have someone come in, pump money in chasing some pipe dream, and then ****ing off and leaving us knackered. Ideally Brown would take more of a back seat and allow full time staff below him to run things a bit more professional, as just now it all feels a bit dated, I don't think he needs to be involved in everything.

Nobody with money will invest in a Scottish club without some huge personal attachment to the club, I'd be massively skeptical of a foreign owner investing in us with the idea of getting it back, as you don't make money from this league.

[garydavidson]

21 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

I've slated Brown a lot the past few days, but I'd rather the way he runs it than have someone come in, pump money in chasing some pipe dream, and then ****ing off and leaving us knackered. Ideally Brown would take more of a back seat and allow full time staff below him to run things a bit more professional, as just now it all feels a bit dated, I don't think he needs to be involved in everything.

It does feel we have been left behind these days with the roles of chief executive being the face of the club above the manager, even when we had a general manager it wasn't as much a focal point as Motherwell and Hibs operate.

[Valentino Bolognese]

8 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

He's apparently a Rangers fan, and hes now pulled all his funding, even the youth stuff, out of the club, because his friend has been taken off the board.

Hes managed to get a stand named after him though...

Shows how petty folk with money can be.

I've slated Brown a lot the past few days, but I'd rather the way he runs it than have someone come in, pump money in chasing some pipe dream, and then ****ing off and leaving us knackered. Ideally Brown would take more of a back seat and allow full time staff below him to run things a bit more professional, as just now it all feels a bit dated, I don't think he needs to be involved in everything.

Nobody with money will invest in a Scottish club without some huge personal attachment to the club, I'd be massively skeptical of a foreign owner investing in us with the idea of getting it back, as you don't make money from this league.

1. I'm not suggesting we want foreign (or domestic) asset strippers. VC money usually looks for 3-5 year payback from weak businesses through running the costs out and maintaining revenue. We don't want that of course.

2. Ref thistle. I made exactly the same point that it was money into the club, but it was balance sheet money. But even if it's not on the P&L it's still money into the club that's unearned income, therefore they actually were 'living beyond their means'. 

3. Inverness, in relative terms, is very much a wee city. I lived there for a while. I agree it has similar issues attracting fans, but I didn't find that the OF issue was any worse or better than here. But more importantly have you been to Dingwall? It's like having Auchterarder in the premiership alongside Saints. The County story is really as simple as 'club does  well because rich benefactor'. It's not that different from us and the Browns, and if they're canny they will make it sustainable. And Roy can write it off as a tax loss.If he leaves, he leaves them in a better place.

And of course you can take the Celtic example. It's about the model, not about the value. Folk putting millions into Celtic is proportionally the same as folk putting thousands into part-time clubs, it's just scale. My point is that McCann wanted the club to do well, be sustainable, and to leave a positive legacy. 

So  ... what happens when the Browns sell up? Because they will, some day. And when should they move on that would be the best time for the club, because if we try to keep going on this outdated 'eat what you kill' business model there's only one direction we're going. 

I'm seeing a lot of what we don't want, but nothing that looks like a realistic solution. 

BTW Random IME folk with money and folk that are broke can be just as petty as each other. 

[Abernethy Saint]

42 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

He's apparently a Rangers fan, and hes now pulled all his funding, even the youth stuff, out of the club, because his friend has been taken off the board.

Hes managed to get a stand named after him though...

Shows how petty folk with money can be.

I've slated Brown a lot the past few days, but I'd rather the way he runs it than have someone come in, pump money in chasing some pipe dream, and then ****ing off and leaving us knackered. Ideally Brown would take more of a back seat and allow full time staff below him to run things a bit more professional, as just now it all feels a bit dated, I don't think he needs to be involved in everything.

Nobody with money will invest in a Scottish club without some huge personal attachment to the club, I'd be massively skeptical of a foreign owner investing in us with the idea of getting it back, as you don't make money from this league.

Weir hasn’t “pulled” any money out of Thistle, he’s chosen not to gift them any more. He did so because the new owners have not been open about the direction they intend to take the club. If that makes him petty, you obviously have higher standards than the rest of us.

[RandomGuy]

18 minutes ago, Abernethy Saint said:

Weir hasn’t “pulled” any money out of Thistle, he’s chosen not to gift them any more. He did so because the new owners have not been open about the direction they intend to take the club. If that makes him petty, you obviously have higher standards than the rest of us.

I said he'd pulled his funding, which he has, he wont be putting any more money in.

Hes, according to thistle fans, close friends to Low, who's just been ousted, and that's why hes quit, I'm just repeating what they're saying.

[sasha]

3 hours ago, Cagey said:

Sasha,your bitterness is getting out of hand. I had a lot of sympathy with your comments but you are overdoing it.

Cagey, it’s not bitterness, £23 to get into a home game to watch poor football. Less than half to see a game that means something to the players and the community.  

[Coltrane]

3 hours ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

At the end of the day Brown himself is an investor. What I'm suggesting is that, essentially, a richer or more willing to invest version of Brown would I think be welcome, possibly necessary. Maybe he's set expectations too high as the club has done so well, helped by others struggling, but if he's not careful the legacy that should be a positive one will turn sour.

Money aside, surely he also gets some enjoyment out of owning and running a football club too.  And the prestige of being part of the SPFL 'club' of owners.  I dont think it all necessarily boils down to money - or even success.  Without Saints he would just be another local business owner.  With Saints he is in the news regularly, being talked about, and part of the Scottish football community.   I would think that's a big deal for him and possibly something he would not want to give up. 

[andy rhodes fancy watch]

32 minutes ago, sasha said:

Cagey, it’s not bitterness, £23 to get into a home game to watch poor football. Less than half to see a game that means something to the players and the community.  

St Johnstone don't mean anything to the community? Why do you think we are fans?

[Ginger Bakers rebel army]

Brown should appoint Paul Smith as club spokesperson providing weekly updates across all media channels on all aspects of the club. 

Simple solution to our crap P R that would make a huge difference. 

 

[Valentino Bolognese]

31 minutes ago, Coltrane said:

Money aside, surely he also gets some enjoyment out of owning and running a football club too.  And the prestige of being part of the SPFL 'club' of owners.  I dont think it all necessarily boils down to money - or even success.  Without Saints he would just be another local business owner.  With Saints he is in the news regularly, being talked about, and part of the Scottish football community.   I would think that's a big deal for him and possibly something he would not want to give up. 

Yes. That's exactly why it would be attractive to other folk too. It's can build his personal brand, fluff his feathers and maybe even open some doors and extend his network. 

But he needs to look at the downside too which is when fans feel let down, you're in the spotlight for failure, whether it's justified or not - which is where good media and profile management comes in. We don't seem to be great at that. 

[cristo]

4 hours ago, sasha said:

Be better going to watch Jeanfield or Kinnoull, half the price of entry, better football and enthusiastic fans.

So when your team is on a bad run you just turn your back on them and go and watch someone else?

From where I live I could easily start going to ICT, Ross County, Elgin or any number of decent Highland League teams.

Or I could just continue to skive off work early and drive 110 miles down to  Perth in whatever conditions the A9 can throw at me to support my team and then drive 110 miles back.

Yeah, I think I'll just keep doing that, no matter who our chairman or manager or three goals a season striker is.