Player contracts and transfers

[rik2304]

 

I could go through them all to be honest but I simply don't have time..

I have made my point anyway and I believe it's a valid one.. 

Tommy should look to his youth more for back up rather than spending money. We are constantly reminded how tight his budget is yet when you add up some of these guys wages then they could easily have been spent better..

At the moment Dundee are offering cash for Stephen Mallan..

Tom Hateley is available.. But we "can't afford them!"

How could the wages have been spent better if they were emergency signings due to injury?  Also a few of these "panic" signings were due to the piss poor display by the chairman in the aftermath of the cup win.

 

Instead of developing at a lower level, like we have seen with May and Kane, why would it be better to see a young player thrown into a situation that they are not prepared for? It's potentially very harmful imo.

[garydavidson]

Although I never saw Krachunov in person he was responsible for the loss of some terrible goals that cost us two games.

I also see the points being made for not throwing youth straight in there. I listened to the Saints v Aberdeen post split game on the radio and Willie Miller was bigging up Michael Rose who had a very good reputation as an Aberdeen youth player. He was played in a back 3 that got slaughtered for 45 minutes and less than a month later was released by Aberdeen. Personally I am glad it was Krachunov that made all those mistakes and released than a youth player who may not have been ready when he was required.

[rik2304]

 

Although I never saw Krachunov in person he was responsible for the loss of some terrible goals that cost us two games.

I also see the points being made for not throwing youth straight in there. I listened to the Saints v Aberdeen post split game on the radio and Willie Miller was bigging up Michael Rose who had a very good reputation as an Aberdeen youth player. He was played in a back 3 that got slaughtered for 45 minutes and less than a month later was released by Aberdeen. Personally I am glad it was Krachunov that made all those mistakes and released than a youth player who may not have been ready when he was required.

Exactly. There is a time and a place for integrating young players.

[Shaggy Jenkins]

All this talk of protecting the young players by not playing them.  Seems to of worked out well in the past with just about every youth player who has been near the first team. 

When I say well I mean well for, forfar, alloa, montrose etc which is where these cosseted youngsters invariably end up. 

It's sink or swim I'm afraid by 19-21 you either step up or ship out. If anything not blooding youngsters early is what is hampering our game, you need to seriously start separating the wheat from the chaff sooner. To get better you need to be challenged by better or more experienced players.

We do well at lower age groups but hit a wall when developing the final product, because they stagnate in the youth systems never being challenged    

By that age if you are not seriously pushing for a first team place, or are not mentally strong enough to play badly learn and recover, then maybe full time football is not for you.

Other teams manage to push guys through, and sell them at silly money, obviously united and falkirk recently stand out in that regard.

Now it's either Tommy doesn't like playing young lads or our youth system is not that great. Honestly not sure which it is but the young guys I saw pre season I would have no problems starting them short term in a crisis

Edited August 26, 2016 by Shaggy Jenkins

[Dr Christmas Jones]

Hearing how Malpas etc had to adapt when they were that age at United I take it things have changed. Unless Ando is in the habit of giving Hurst a sore face or McLean clocking Gordon.........forget the last bit 

[R.B.B:- Adz]

 

You haven't made a point. You've tried to slaughter Tommy taking a very simplistic view of players yet haven't been able to back any of it up. The only point you appear to have made is you've something against Tommy Wright which isn't justified.

I have made a very clear point, that you choose not to accept for whatever reason.. I'll simplify it a little for you.. You may have heard of burning the candle at both ends.. Well that's what we do. We rave about how we created, nurtured and then sold O'Halloran and May. We now talk about Kane, Thompson and Hurst, christ I still hear fans talking about Danny Griffin, Philip Scott and Callum Davidson. We claim to invest in youth, we pay Alec Clelland, Alistair Stevenson, yet we yield an average one youth every two or three years who make it... So, we spend that money on youth and claim it works, yet when the chance presents itself for a youth player to deputise for a senior player....WELL LETS JUST BRING IN ANOTHER SENIOR PLAYER and pay for him as well as our young players, coaches, staff and facilities....

For the record I really like Tommy Wright both as the manager of St.Johnstone, as an ambassador of our club and personally as an individual...I like him a lot!

 

How could the wages have been spent better if they were emergency signings due to injury?  Also a few of these "panic" signings were due to the piss poor display by the chairman in the aftermath of the cup win.

 

Instead of developing at a lower level, like we have seen with May and Kane, why would it be better to see a young player thrown into a situation that they are not prepared for? It's potentially very harmful imo.

Very harmful!! Get a grip man.. This is their job, they are paid and crave first team football. I have never heard someone saying that playing a young guy in a match to give him experience is harmful. 

 

All this talk of protecting the young players by not playing them.  Seems to of worked out well in the past with just about every youth player who has been near the first team.

It's sink or swim I'm afraid by 19-21 you either step up or ship out. If anything not blooding youngsters early is what is hampering our game, you need to seriously start separating the wheat from the chaff sooner. To get better you need to be challenged by better or more experienced players.

By that age if you are not seriously pushing for a first team place, or are not mentally strong enough to play badly learn and recover, then maybe full time football is not for you.

Other teams manage to push guys through, and sell them at silly money, obviously united and falkirk recently stand out in that regard.

Now it's either Tommy doesn't like playing young lads or our youth system is not that great. Honestly not sure which it is but the young guys I saw pre season I would have no problems starting them short term in a crisis

Well put!! These are not scared little pubescent 15/16 year olds who wouldn't know hard work if it slapped them in the face.. These are 20 or 21 year old guys who are holding down a full time job and being paid modestly to do so... These guys are big enough and tough enough to plaster all over their Facebook and Twitter how they are a professional footballer and all that comes with it, but they are not equipped to face up to Partick bloody Thistle??

 

 

Anyway, it's not Tommys judgement on our youth setup that I am questioning, it's the slap dash manner that we bring in "experienced pros" every time we get an "injury crisis"..then going on to miss out on signings that will improve our squad because there is nothing left in the budget.. Yes it will prolong Tommys career as a manager because it eliminates much of the risk that comes with blooding youth...

Edited August 26, 2016 by R.B.B:- Adz

[rik2304]

 

I have made a very clear point, that you choose not to accept for whatever reason.. I'll simplify it a little for you.. You may have heard of burning the candle at both ends.. Well that's what we do. We rave about how we created, nurtured and then sold O'Halloran and May. We now talk about Kane, Thompson and Hurst, christ I still hear fans talking about Danny Griffin, Philip Scott and Callum Davidson. We claim to invest in youth, we pay Alec Clelland, Alistair Stevenson, yet we yield an average one youth every two or three years make it... So, we spend that money on youth and claim it works, yet when the chance presents itself for a youth player to deputise for a senior player....WELL LETS JUST BRING IN ANOTHER SENIOR PLAYER and pay for him as well as our young players, coaches, staff and facilities....

For the record I really like Tommy Wright both as the manager of St.Johnstone, as an ambassador of our club and personally as an individual...I like him a lot!

Very harmful!! Get a grip man.. This is their job, they are paid and crave first team football. I have never heard someone saying that playing a young guy in a match to give him experience is harmful. 

Well put!! These are not scared little pubescent 15/16 year olds who wouldn't know hard work if it slapped them in the face.. These are 20 or 21 year old guys who are holding down a full time job and being paid modestly to do so... These guys are big enough and tough enough to plaster all over their Facebook and Twitter how they are a professional footballer and all that comes with it, but they are not equipped to face up to Partick bloody Thistle??

 

 

Anyway, it's not Tommys judgement on our youth setup that I am questioning, it's the slap dash manner that we bring in "experienced pros" every time we get an "injury crisis"..then going on to miss out on signings that will improve our squad because there is nothing left in the budget.. Yes it will prolong Tommys career as a manager because it eliminates much of the risk that comes with blooding youth...

How many young players should we be bringing through? Successful ones that make an impression on the first team and are potentially sold.

How much of making the grade in senior football is a confidence thing? Do you honestly think it would be beneficial for a 17-18 year old to get ripped to shreds by an established player like Sinclair, Griffiths or Hayes? Especially when they know that they are only getting an opportunity due to an injury crisis and not because they are necessarily ready.

 

 

[andy rhodes fancy watch]

When will they be ready? When will you find out if they're ready? The odd game here and there covering for injuries to first teamers are exactly the times this should happen.  If they get ripped they get ripped. Shows them the level they need to be at. I'd  rather show a promising youngster what level he should be at than a Plamen here for 3 games shithouse. 

[tucker]

time young hunter the chance we don't need another striker plenty goals in the team and could do alot worse than giving the kids a chance

[rik2304]

 

How many of younger players stood out against Turiff United?

[livi saint]

The majority were like 16/17 were they no? 

Not a very fair comparison.

[Guest ScottMann]

 

I have made a very clear point, that you choose not to accept for whatever reason.. I'll simplify it a little for you.. You may have heard of burning the candle at both ends.. Well that's what we do. We rave about how we created, nurtured and then sold O'Halloran and May. We now talk about Kane, Thompson and Hurst, christ I still hear fans talking about Danny Griffin, Philip Scott and Callum Davidson. We claim to invest in youth, we pay Alec Clelland, Alistair Stevenson, yet we yield an average one youth every two or three years who make it... So, we spend that money on youth and claim it works, yet when the chance presents itself for a youth player to deputise for a senior player....WELL LETS JUST BRING IN ANOTHER SENIOR PLAYER and pay for him as well as our young players, coaches, staff and facilities....

For the record I really like Tommy Wright both as the manager of St.Johnstone, as an ambassador of our club and personally as an individual...I like him a lot!

I choose to ask you for the facts to back up your statements, nothing more, nothing less. That is the simple bit yet you don't or can't do it.

In my opinion and with no figures to back it up, I'd say that our youth system has been rubbish for ages and will have cost us far more in wasted money than the first team has. All Saints managers have had to work with tight budgets, some tighter than others, especially Tommy. He's had to build a squad and that includes players that are better than others, that will play more often than others. On occasions he's had to resort to the unsigned market as there have been no youth players good enough to fill the gaps. I would expect these players would be signed on a wage that suited Saints rather than the other way round as they were unemployed and we were giving them a shop window if they played. I doubt we spent as much on those guys as is being made out. I don't know though as, probably like everyone on here, I don't know the figures but I'm also not making wild accusations based on my opinion, not facts.

Personally, I couldn't care where a player comes from and how old he is if he's doing well for Saints. The most successful period in our history has been brought about by an experienced manager using significant numbers of experienced players brought in from other clubs and that's just fine and dandy by me.

[dunkeldneil]

for The Club to progress we need to start churning out youth players like Dundee utd did, but well it didint get then anyware..Must be a few talented youngsters in The lower divisions, our youth system which am sure are working hasint really worked that well so far

[Cagey]

I'm sorry but if a player in the under 20s is not capable of playing & covering for injury against some of the crap in the premiership then why are we wasting all that money on players & coaches.

Ffs there are guys as younge as 18 getting games in the EPL.

The wages wasted on seasoned pro's(some without a club) is a sin when you we are spending a lot of money on a youth system.

I am with RBB on this.

 

[Edstar101]

I'm sitting on the fence

 

 

 

Oh, sorry, thought this was the "What are you doing right now" thread

[Edstar101]

In all seriousness, it is a bit of all the arguments put forward. As a country, Scotland for me have always been a bit guilty of the 'too young' thing at international level, and it seems to be that way at Saints

However, would the experience of getting the runaround by older more seasoned players really damage a kid for good? I guess it might depend on the mental strength of the individual

[RandomGuy]

 

Plamen Krachunov 1 start in 5 months

Michael Doyle 3 starts in 5 months

John Sutton 5 starts in 12 months

James McFadden 8 starts in 10 months

Adam Morgan 1 start in 5 months

Timothy Clancy 3 starts in 3 months

Gwion Edwards 4 starts in 12 months

Rory Fallon 1 start in 7 months

Chris Iwelumo 0 starts in 5 months

Sanel Jahic 3 starts in 12 months

And you'd rather the likes of Kerr, Thomson and Hurst were getting those appearance figures instead of regular games at a lower level?

This is a mental topic to be chatting about, we all want homegrown players in the first team, but if the only way they'll develop is to get regular game time. We're at too high a level to just throw every single one in so a loan spell is more useful, ergo we need back up players to provide cover. Young players who prove themselves at lower levels get the chance in the first team (Clark, Gordon, May, Kane) while even young players who are average when out on loan also get game time (Brown and Caddis). Folk genuinely suggesting Hunter should be fourth choice must be utterly blind to what level hes actually at, he struggled like **** in League Two last season. U20 football is nowhere close to first team level.

[RandomGuy]

FWIW the "rejuvenated" youth system since Alastair Stevenson came back is reaching the sort of point now where the first batch of them should be coming through, the fact four U17s got full time contracts this Summer is testament to that. Hes an absolutely fantastic youth coach, so lets see how it progresses over the next five years, instead of claiming players he barely got time to coach are evidence of how useless it all is.

[Abernethy Saint]

Oh Christ, I've liked a Randoom post.

it is the End of Days. 

[Havana Saint]

 

Don't  really see where you're coming from on this. Every club has some fringe players and some failed signings, and the above players are spread out over a good number of years. It's completely normal.

The fact is that Tommy Wright's decisions have sustained a longer period of success than any other manager in this club's history. If he thinks the players he's bringing in are better for the club than youngsters who he gets to watch regularly in training and development matches, then personally I feel he's earned our trust on that. I think we also have to acknowledge that Wright gave both Caddis and Brown a lot longer than many of us would have bothered with, and he got us transfer fees for selling two young players (May and O'Halloran), and Kane and Clark are also now established first team squad members

I certainly think we need a new striker with some experience and don't want us to have to rely on youngsters to fill that gap until January.

P.S. Did Michael Doyle actually make 3 starts? I'm surprised it's as many as that. Fallon and Edwards (I think) played against Rosenborg for us so certainly played their part; Sutton seemed like a very good signing at the time and I can't remember many complaining when we got him; Jahic I thought was a really good player on the few occasions I saw him; McFadden was always going to be a gamble but was a last minute signing at a point when we really needed it; Iwelumo is a Saints Scottish Cup winner so is one of the greatest humans of all time as far as I'm concerned.

Fair enough. But let's not duck the point:  Iwelumo was a complete charlatan. An utterly awful professional footballer.

[Guest ScottMann]

 

Ffs there are guys as younge as 18 getting games in the EPL.

Comparing the Scottish and English games is just ridiculous these days they are so far ahead of us.

Seeing as you did though, there are also 34 year olds stopping 18 year old English superstars getting a game as one of the games most successful managers, well known for ignoring youth, rebuilds his team. Since the now boring 'Class of 92', how many English clubs have won trophies with a mainly home built team?

[RandomGuy]

Iwelumo was a Scottish International who'd played over 200 games in the English Championship, and who three years before had hit double figures in that league. A six month deal which allowed Kane regular game time in the Scottish Championship, and meant there wasn't a long term competitor against Kane for a striking role, sounds decent to me.

[RandomGuy]

 

Comparing the Scottish and English games is just ridiculous these days they are so far ahead of us.

Seeing as you did though, there are also 34 year olds stopping 18 year old English superstars getting a game as one of the games most successful managers, well known for ignoring youth, rebuilds his team. Since the now boring 'Class of 92', how many English clubs have won trophies with a mainly home built team?

Theres also the fact 18 year olds down there have been getting pumped full of growth enhancers for years beforehand. Theres 17 year olds down there built like men.

[Guest ScottMann]

 

FWIW the "rejuvenated" youth system since Alastair Stevenson came back is reaching the sort of point now where the first batch of them should be coming through, the fact four U17s got full time contracts this Summer is testament to that. Hes an absolutely fantastic youth coach, so lets see how it progresses over the next five years, instead of claiming players he barely got time to coach are evidence of how useless it all is.

As per usual, point missed. Saints addressing it now doesn't hide the 10/12 year period between Callum Davidson and Stevie May when it was useless. We even tried to hoover up youth players not good enough for English non league teams for goodness sake. At least Peterborough are benefitting from that spell rather then the usual Forfar and Brechin.

[RandomGuy]

 

As per usual, point missed. Saints addressing it now doesn't hide the 10/12 year period between Callum Davidson and Stevie May when it was useless. We even tried to hoover up youth players not good enough for English non league teams for goodness sake. At least Peterborough are benefitting from that spell rather then the usual Forfar and Brechin.

I won't argue with you about the period, the utter neglect of it all was a farce and utterly short sighted, but I can understand why Geoff Brown decided that conserving money and improving the first team was a more prudent use of the money at the time, due to our relegation. This new attempt at is seems a lot more structured and will hopefully last the course, even when we do decline. We have a fairly decent record with young players, tbh.