mainstand Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 Can't really see the point in investigating whether or not the Old Rangers fiddled the EBTs or not, because the Old Rangers no longer exists. Unless it's to give the evidence needed to strip their winnings off them. Can't see how the Sevco lot could be forced to pay up for the Old Rangers debts either. I think it is becaus of the license, the Rangers license simply transferred to the newco instead of newco applying for a completely new license. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenrothes saintee Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 (edited) old Walter Smith saying in todays papers, that the SPL without Rangers is heading to the level of the league of Ireland. The same Walter Smith, who, in 2009 said that the SPL would be fine without BOTH Rangers and Celtic. http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/rangers/atlantic-league-could-save-scottish-football-insists-rangers-walter-smith-1.926500 What has changed in 3 years Walter? Edited August 4, 2012 by glenrothes saintee punctuation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ex-montrosesaintee Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 Seems a bit odd watching Celtic v Aberdeen on SS2. I've been on holiday, and away from the news, but I understood that Sky were due to walk away from Scottish football, burning villages and murdering innocent people on their way south? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted August 4, 2012 Report Share Posted August 4, 2012 The only time he tells lies is when his lips move.Is the arrogance thing put on or is he really that bad ? Kilgour I think he gets too much wrong to be honest and you get the feeling he's talking to one particular audience but he's really talking too everybody. This comes across as inconsistencies. he said the 'loss is seven figures to all clubs' What he actually means by this is there is a total loss of 7 figures... spread over 12 clubs. so less than 100k each. Absolutely no talk of 'overseas' rights yet though - we could actually end up in a position where the tv deal is better than last years, as he also didn't say whether the seven figure loss was against last year's deal, or the new deal which was due to start next season... ...i'd put money on it being the latter! That clears up the point for me Stevensan and hopefully we might get more. Why could Neil Doncaster not have said that clearly in one statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevensan Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 That clears up the point for me Stevensan and hopefully we might get more. Why could Neil Doncaster not have said that clearly in one statement. One thing that is becoming obvious is that the statements are very very carefully worded to spread fear and panic. The new tv deal will have little affect on Scottish football. The crowds yesterday were decent across the board, yet papers this morning are still carrying stories about how Scottish football is facing bankruptcy and is heading for league of Ireland levels. What is ironic, Ibrox could possibly have less fans than tynecastle yesterday come tuesday night... http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=234106&st=20 PS - BBC Scotland's phone in was a breath of fresh air. Maybe things are starting to change Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulfulsaint Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 Can't really see the point in investigating whether or not the Old Rangers fiddled the EBTs or not, because the Old Rangers no longer exists. Unless it's to give the evidence needed to strip their winnings off them. Can't see how the Sevco lot could be forced to pay up for the Old Rangers debts either. I can they failed to pay £134m to unsecured creditors of which the majority was to the inland revenue and so all public services in the UK including hospitals and fire services in Perth. Of the amount of tax unpaid via EBTs the various UK based tax avoiders including players such as Barry Ferguson, Steve Davis, etc etc are reponsible for declaring tax in exactly the same way as every working person on this forum. Sevco cannot be forced to pay they are a different company but they have agreed to inherit football debt and should pay that. The original company were liquidated to avoid tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babychunder Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 I can they failed to pay £134m to unsecured creditors of which the majority was to the inland revenue and so all public services in the UK including hospitals and fire services in Perth. Of the amount of tax unpaid via EBTs the various UK based tax avoiders including players such as Barry Ferguson, Steve Davis, etc etc are reponsible for declaring tax in exactly the same way as every working person on this forum. Sevco cannot be forced to pay they are a different company but they have agreed to inherit football debt and should pay that. The original company were liquidated to avoid tax. Aye but ye cannae get blood oot o a stane SS... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Grieve Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 There will be an old firm because the papers and the tv want an old firm. With the death of rangers and birth of sevco the old firm is dead and should be referred to in the past tense. Let's kill that monster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
541ntees Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 l. The crowds yesterday were decent across the board/QUOTE] was it sell out sat yesterday or is that nextweek? we dont seem to hear a lot about it since we're away and have our own massive blue n white home game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Neutral Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 Can those players / staff who benefited from the EBT being mis-managed ( & live in the UK ) be chased my HMRC for any of the money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevensan Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 Can those players / staff who benefited from the EBT being mis-managed ( & live in the UK ) be chased my HMRC for any of the money? Quick answer: yes long answer: yes, but it would be very difficult for HMRC to show that the Rangers player hadn't received money from Rangers net of tax paid. EG, it is most likely that any rangers player, through their accountant or advisor, would have received this sum as a net payment, thinking any tax had been remitted on their behalf to HMRC. The fact no tax was paid on the EBT scheme would not be their fault, but the fault of Rangers, and it would be up to the HMRC to prove that the Rangers player was aware that no tax was being paid. I would say almost impossible to do so... ... they will go after the directors of Rangers instead for their money. That will be the remit of BDO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wish i was Joe McGurn Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 Newspaper piece about this Subject. http://www.gerryhassan.com/uncategorized/2439/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corned Beef Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 I can they failed to pay £134m to unsecured creditors of which the majority was to the inland revenue and so all public services in the UK including hospitals and fire services in Perth. Of the amount of tax unpaid via EBTs the various UK based tax avoiders including players such as Barry Ferguson, Steve Davis, etc etc are reponsible for declaring tax in exactly the same way as every working person on this forum. Sevco cannot be forced to pay they are a different company but they have agreed to inherit football debt and should pay that. The original company were liquidated to avoid tax. So have they been found guilty of avoiding tax aka the big tax case? Or is everyone assuming they have been? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOODLUM65 Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) Newspaper piece about this Subject. http://www.gerryhassan.com/uncategorized/2439/ Great article by this journalist. Last paragraph is particularly relevant. Edited August 6, 2012 by HOODLUM65 spelling correction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulfulsaint Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 So have they been found guilty of avoiding tax aka the big tax case? Or is everyone assuming they have been? According to HMRC yes. They have sent the approrpiate tax bills which Rangers were appealing at the First Tier Tribunal (Tax). Since the bills were sent they constituted a debt at the point of administration which is why HMRC were the majority creditor and refused a CVA and forced the club into liquidation. They then appointed BDO as the liquidator instrucing BDO's head of 'contentious insolvency' to pursue liquidation and any other relevnat matters including fraud. Many people - including most Rangers fans - have used the term 'innocent until proven guilty' which is in this case irrelevant it is not a court of law and notions of innocence and guilt are the wrong terms. The FTT works on the 'balance of probabilities' and the Tax man has been clear and consistent on the balance of probabilities Rangers were using EBT's inappropriately to avoid tax and a bill has been served on them. The £134m I quote include the tax due on the EBT proportion - that is what the administrators reported. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 I don't understand ....... Rangers (the old club company) are being Liquidated and not trading while being investigated and ater a long history ... they are no more, then the Green Gang come in and form a new company to establish a new football team (strangely with a very similar name) to play in Scotlan d and have only narrowly managed to get into Scottish football can then demand and have their fans demand - "But a joint statement from three fans groups has questioned the process that could lead to the stripping of titles." Any titles won by the old company via illegal business activities should be returned. Otherwise their history stays with the old company being investigated and Liquidated. The new company can certainly keep any trophies won = 0. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19137624 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
541ntees Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 i presume they changed the rule then that a club had to have 3 years audited accounts to join the league? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babychunder Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 According to HMRC yes. They have sent the approrpiate tax bills which Rangers were appealing at the First Tier Tribunal (Tax). Since the bills were sent they constituted a debt at the point of administration which is why HMRC were the majority creditor and refused a CVA and forced the club into liquidation. They then appointed BDO as the liquidator instrucing BDO's head of 'contentious insolvency' to pursue liquidation and any other relevnat matters including fraud. Many people - including most Rangers fans - have used the term 'innocent until proven guilty' which is in this case irrelevant it is not a court of law and notions of innocence and guilt are the wrong terms. The FTT works on the 'balance of probabilities' and the Tax man has been clear and consistent on the balance of probabilities Rangers were using EBT's inappropriately to avoid tax and a bill has been served on them. The £134m I quote include the tax due on the EBT proportion - that is what the administrators reported. Hector is a heartless barsteward. One year I cashed some share options in. I declared them in my tax return and paid the tax. The following year they reduced my tax code and charged me more tax in anticipation I would have the same benefit from share options again that year. When I wrote to them to get it changed they basically said "prove it". The balance of probabilities you speak of seems to always work in their favour. If you are late paying tax you get a penalty and interest. If they hold on to your overpayment for a year or more you get chuff all. "Ayu Ayol Ibne Revenue Ibne Revenue" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevensan Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Shamelessly lifted from TSFM... --- Good Evening. Let me ask a question: Have you ever stopped and thought about how you go about producing a Radio Programme. It might be one with music and so on, or it might be a talk show– or indeed a mixture of both? Well let me reveal– not so much a secret– as just a process that is logical. Radio Programmes are produced from the end to the start. If the programme is 2 hours long, the studio clock– or should I say the really important studio clock — will start at 2:00:00 and proceed to 1:59:59 and work its way down. This is the way that a producer times the show. If a music piece lasts 5 Mins and 5 seconds then that time– less say a few seconds is then worked into the timing and deducted from the time allocated to the show. This process then goes on until the whole show is covered.No other clock matters– and nothing stops the clock other than the end of the show!! Further, the announcer or DJ will have a script as often as not– or at least they used to— and each spoken piece will also have a time allocated to it– and this is then taken account of when working out the timings on the show. So that is how it is done— Backwords! Tic Toc goes the backwards clock. Backwards thinking is perfectly logical, and so with that in mind, I now invite you to review Sir David Murray’s statement of Today— Backwards. You might find it illuminating. By that I don’t mean you should read the statement from the end back to the start. No, what I mean is that you should read the statement from the viewpoint from the end of the “process” that this sorry legal saga has taken— in other words from the point of view of the Liquidators. They are the guys who are left with the husk that is Rangers PLC– they are the guys who legally have to wind up the business of Rangers PLC, and as has been pointed out, these are the guys who have the right to investigate and, if necessary, pursue those responsible for the failure of the business. Everything that you hear coming from Ally, Minty, Big Eck, Walter, Wee Billy and everyone else should be looked at from their perspective… and in that way you will see why it was said and what they are actually saying.Everything that is said by those named above are aimed at the Liquidators– not the fans, not the SPL, not Harper McLeod, not the press– just the Liquidators! No one else counts. Remember always, that the liquidator can only take action against certain people– Directors, shadow Directors, and others responsible for the “management” of the company. They are not the Liquidators of the MIH trust and so have no power over the trust itself— that is a completely separate legal entity with, as Sir Minty has pointed out, independent Trustees and so on. Also– you should be aware that in normal circumstances, a liquidator can undo transactions which were not in the best interests of the company– for example selling an asset at undervalue– or making a completely discretionary gift to someone for no apparent reason— but only if it happened within a period of 5 years prior to the date of their appointment. That 5 year period can be extended— If the Liquidator thinks that there has been some kind of Fraud. Fraud ,of course, requires a higher legal standard of wrongdoing and is harder to prove— though obviously it is not impossible.Fraud also carries heavier penalties than just maladministration or mismanagement. However, it should always be remebered that once you have rolled a heavy ball up the hill and it starts to roll down the other side, anyone wanting to shove it back up faces an even heavier task—- once the pieces that show Fraud fall into place on the face of it— the defence really has to go some to reverse the interpretation of the evidence, and avoid the conclusion that a Fraud occured. So, with all of that in mind, have a look again at what Sir David Murray had to say today. Don’t think of the SPL dual contracts investigation– that is not what Murray’s statement is about– look at it from the point of view that he is trying to save his personal skin! The Liquidators have a duty to get money back in to Rangers PLC in the interests of that company’s creditors. If it succeeds in collecting a sufficient sum of money so that the creditors can be paid, then of course the Directors can sleep easy in their bed at night. It is logical for the Liquidators to start by getting back the money that Rangers PLC just gave away— to the trustees of the MIH EBT. The Liquidator, says to the Trustees, ” Give me back all that money– let’s start with the money given in the last 5 years for now!”. ” We don’t have it– we loaned it out” says the trustees! Well– Today Sir David Murray has told the world that that money was loaned out with a specific set of repayment dates and with accruing interest. Oh yes, it might be some date in the future, but the money is due to come back at some point– all of it– at least every last penny that was the subject of a loan!! Of course, the Liquidator can’t pursue the players directly– he is not the liquidator of the trust– but hey he/she can bring big big pressure on the trustees of that trust– especially if there is an allegation that they too were party to a fraud. The sensible trustee, sitting on a series of loan notes, will be best advised to go collect the money just as fast as possible.If that means he has to accept 50p in the pound loaned out , then hey, …. a trustee has gotta do what a trustee has gotta do at times!! The players? Oh they may well have indemnities– but correct me if I am wrong– weren’t those indemnities against there being tax due on the money? They were not indemnities against ever having to repay the loans– unless of course there are indemnities from someone who says that the loans are never to be repaid at all– and if they exist– then of course there were never any loans in the first place– were there? And documents which purport to set out one legal position but which really mask another– in most cases show Prima Facie evidence of………. frau! The land where no one wants to go!. Will the players want to admit that they or their advisors were party to a crime? No Chance– they will run a mile– even pay back a proportion of a loan they thought they would never be called upon to repay. At least…. that is one theory. So– go on— look at what Murray said. He said, that each and every one of the “loans” was due to be repaid. Will the players agree to repay a proportion of those loans— even if it is only some of the money they received for a quick and dirty settlement—- or be faced with potential involvement in a criminal case? You can bet some will and in that way some money starts to come back into the Rangers PLC coffers– and the more money comes back into the Rangers PLC coffers the less Sir David and his fellow Directors will have to find personally. This statement today has little to do with the SPL enquiry– other than that the SPL enquiry might throw up some evidence that might not suit those who were previously in charge of Rangers PLC. No– David Murray was not protecting his former employees today– he was selling them down the legal river– and telling everyone about it. The players— and others—- borrowed that money and it is due to be repaid no matter what any documents delivered to anyone says. Or else! That is today’s Murray Message. What a parcel of Rogues? Undoubtedly! However, if just one righteous man among the EBT beneficaries told the FTT the truth, then today’s statement may just be redundant. Meanwhile—————-Tic Tic Toc goes the studio clock—- because nothing stops the clock other than the end of the show! ---- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCD Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I don't understand ....... Rangers (the old club company) are being Liquidated and not trading while being investigated and ater a long history ... they are no more, then the Green Gang come in and form a new company to establish a new football team (strangely with a very similar name) to play in Scotlan d and have only narrowly managed to get into Scottish football can then demand and have their fans demand - "But a joint statement from three fans groups has questioned the process that could lead to the stripping of titles." Any titles won by the old company via illegal business activities should be returned. Otherwise their history stays with the old company being investigated and Liquidated. The new company can certainly keep any trophies won = 0. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19137624 Surely it's now time to let up on this "not Rangers, they are dead" nonsense. It's become childish and irrelevant. Can we all not move on and discuss football? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) Surely it's now time to let up on this "not Rangers, they are dead" nonsense. It's become childish and irrelevant. Can we all not move on and discuss football? Well JCD the football is back again and that's great & hoping for the best but I'm afraid there are still questions that relate to the business of Rangers and there will be for a while. There are football threads on Rangers, there's one on Sandaza right now. JCD, do you expect the business disaster that was Rangers just to finish like switching off a TV set? To be honest I've not understood the way this Liquidation process has taken place and that's why I'm questioning things but others are questioning from different angles. Usually a Liquidation does mean the old company is no more as you say and a new company goes forward but here t's blurred. like keeping the history o the old company but not the £134m debt. There are rumours now that Rangers may win their tax case. Rangers are richer now with big crowds and no debt than they were a few months ago hence Sandaza. Do you think the business complexities are over JCD, and if not do you think we should be allowed to talk about it? I think it would be childish to ignore al that. Edited August 7, 2012 by Ronaldo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Surely it's now time to let up on this "not Rangers, they are dead" nonsense. It's become childish and irrelevant. Can we all not move on and discuss football? This is the biggest story of my footballing life. We haven't even begun to see the effect of this fantastic development yet, only it's cause. We have a real chance of changing the make-up of the Scottish game for good. Rangers dying is only the start of something wonderful, I don't doubt that this story will run for years..... Can't wait to see what happens! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueheaven Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Surely it's now time to let up on this "not Rangers, they are dead" nonsense. It's become childish and irrelevant. Can we all not move on and discuss football? It most certainly is not time to "let up" on it. That's exactly what both Sevco and the media are hoping for. They're banking on the fact that this will all die down so that normal service will be resumed and they can go back to getting away with murder (in fact, I'd hazard a not-very-daring guess that Sevco have already started cheating again in one form or another). It surprises me that any fan would want to simply let this slide. "Irrelevant" is absolutely the last thing it is. We can never let this slide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Wallace Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I'll not be letting up on these cheating bastards. I'm even annoyed listening to Knob McLean going on about how Rangers have won the League Cup 27 times blah blah. Rangers might have done, but they are being liquidated. The team currently playing at Ibrox have won hee-haw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Wallace Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Now we've got Chick the Prick back to his fawning best. Normal service resumed. 50,000+ bigots. Hope Fran is enjoying himself! I think I hate the new **** even more than the extinct ones. Would never have believed it possible. **** 'em!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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