Cagey Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 If we started the campaign with Guardiola in charge and Steven Fletcher bright eyed and bushy taled I still wouldn't expect us to qualify out of this group. It could happen but it is and always was unlikely. Belgium and Croatia are much better than us. Serbia and Macedonia are tehnically much better than us. There isn't a single easy game in the group for us. And that is due to the uderlying problems we have in this country. They aren't going to go away over night unless we appoint Harry Potter. I would give Levein til the end of the campaign, as I would for any manager. But what we have to accept is that we are no longer anybody in iternational football. The TV money has evolved football, both for the good and the bad, and the game has changed but we haven't. We are a small country with poor facilities, climate, coaching and culture. That is why we are where we are. Short term fixes don't work. Negative stuff. Are you sure you are not Avril ?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babychunder Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 What a load of tripe. I remember when Kenny Miller would score for fun in the Championship but when it came to Scotland games he'd miss numerous sitters. You could argue Stevie May showed last season he has an eye for goal. Get him in the Scotland squad. Oh, wait, he can't even get in the Saints squad at the moment. A really pish argument Nips. Kenny Miller's been missin sitters his whole career; I've been watchin this lad Rhodes and he doesnae. Give him a start for Scotland then we'll see. You're smokin somethin comparin Stevie May by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babychunder Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Like Kenny Deuchar will score at any level? Like Alfonso Alves will score at any level? Like Kris Boyd will score at any level? You're pathetic attempts to make this about United aside, there are hundreds of strikers that simply couldn't cut it at a higher level. There are also hundreds examples of young players being put in too early and too much pressure put on them. And the simple fact is that Rhodes is not a world beater and requires service. The service was poor because of the basic skills Brittish players in general lack. There are next to no players in the whol of Britain that have the technical skills that Pandev has at his disposal. Steven Fletcher is argualbly the best striker we have in this country (despite the obvious problme he has refused to play for his country and the fact he is incredibly over-rated) but you can't seriously suggest we would have been guaranteed results in these two games if he had played. So why so many think Jordan Rhodes would have been a sure fire to have made a difference is beyond me. He lacks basic skills in his link up play and positioning. He has the potential to be a great striker but is young and exceptionally raw. And with the lack of creativity and techinal ability that Scottish players have, we need a player with some all round ability to help keep possesion and move us up the field. Personally I wouldn't have played either Rhodes or Miller up top, and would have went with either Mackie or McCormack but again it would have been much of a muchness. Levein hasn't been awe-inspiring for sure but he is not the major fault in what we have seen at international level. The football culture of this backwards country is at fault along with the chronic underfunding of facilities. The scandanavian nations noticed that 20 years ao and did something about it. We didn't hence why we are where we are. Edstar was right aboot you in post 22. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nips Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 A really pish argument Nips. Kenny Miller's been missin sitters his whole career; I've been watchin this lad Rhodes and he doesnae. Give him a start for Scotland then we'll see. You're smokin somethin comparin Stevie May by the way. I brought Stevie May into it merely to point out just because you can score goals in a lower division doesn't mean you will be able to do it at a higher level. What have you watched of Rhodes exactly? Fair enough if you've seen him play in a few live games, but if you're judging his finishing ability on the highlights you see on Goals on Sunday then of course you're not going to see him miss sitters. They call it GOALS on Sunday for a reason! ;-). I'm not saying he's not a good finisher - I've only seen him play approx 40 mins of football after all - but without watching him live on a few occasions it's hard to judge ability. Yes, you can judge on goals scored but as has already been pointed out he had only scored at third tier level up until last week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1962 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 I brought Stevie May into it merely to point out just because you can score goals in a lower division doesn't mean you will be able to do it at a higher level. What have you watched of Rhodes exactly? Fair enough if you've seen him play in a few live games, but if you're judging his finishing ability on the highlights you see on Goals on Sunday then of course you're not going to see him miss sitters. They call it GOALS on Sunday for a reason! ;-). I'm not saying he's not a good finisher - I've only seen him play approx 40 mins of football after all - but without watching him live on a few occasions it's hard to judge ability. Yes, you can judge on goals scored but as has already been pointed out he had only scored at third tier level up until last week. How will we know if he can score at international level? Play him? Started against the Aussies when he started. Yes a friendly but turning your argument on its head surely a higher level than the English third tier? And he has started well enough in the Engish second tier.One of our biggest problems in Scotland is that we wont give youngsters a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstar101 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 How will we know if he can score at international level? Play him? Started against the Aussies when he started. Yes a friendly but turning your argument on its head surely a higher level than the English third tier? And he has started well enough in the Engish second tier.One of our biggest problems in Scotland is that we wont give youngsters a chance. Totally agree with this. For all the criticism of Vogts, many of our best performers at international level (after Vogts left) were given their chance under him when young, and therefore, by the time they were in their early 20's they had several caps and experience under their belt. Italy had a 17 year old playing in the World Cup semi-final I am sure. I am not drawing comparisonons directly between that Italian and Rhodes (who is 21 FFS.....not young in footballing terms these days), but play youngsters when they have fire in their belly and unwavering confidence in themselves. As you say John...surely better to let's see what they can achieve than play players that we KNOW will achieve nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nips Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 How will we know if he can score at international level? Play him? Started against the Aussies when he started. Yes a friendly but turning your argument on its head surely a higher level than the English third tier? And he has started well enough in the Engish second tier.One of our biggest problems in Scotland is that we wont give youngsters a chance. Of course the the only way you will know is if you play him. However, it would have been a risk to try something new in such important games. Of course with hindsight it is very easy to say not trying something new didnt do us any favours, but I can completely understand why Avril took the decision not to start him. Yes, he scored in the friendly, however one goal doesn't prove much. It's a good start and is encouraging, but it's not proof that he will be able to handle it at the highest level. Yes, it's probably a higher level than the English 3rd tier, but Australia are a poor side these days. Yes, he has started well in the English second tier, but he had done nothing prior to the Scotland games at that level. If he continues his current form leading up to the next double header I will be joining the shouts for him to start, but all I am trying to point out is that at the time of the previous games it would have been too much of a risk to throw in a relatively untested youngster into such important games. Given the desperation we currently have for any promising signs, it would have been a lot of pressure to put on his shoulders. I'm not so sure I agree with your last point either. We have given youngsters more of a chance in recent years - long gone are the Craig Brown days! Darren Fletcher made his debut at 19 I think, Faddy was pretty young when he broke through, Forrest is not long out of the U21s....I could probably find more if I gave it more thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancientsaint Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 At the moment if I was given a straight choice between either Levein or Fletcher being involved in our next game i would say Fletcher. Managers are ten a penny compared to top quality Scottish Internationalist strikers. I think Fletchers shite . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1962 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Of course the the only way you will know is if you play him. However, it would have been a risk to try something new in such important games. Of course with hindsight it is very easy to say not trying something new didnt do us any favours, but I can completely understand why Avril took the decision not to start him. Yes, he scored in the friendly, however one goal doesn't prove much. It's a good start and is encouraging, but it's not proof that he will be able to handle it at the highest level. Yes, it's probably a higher level than the English 3rd tier, but Australia are a poor side these days. Yes, he has started well in the English second tier, but he had done nothing prior to the Scotland games at that level. If he continues his current form leading up to the next double header I will be joining the shouts for him to start, but all I am trying to point out is that at the time of the previous games it would have been too much of a risk to throw in a relatively untested youngster into such important games. Given the desperation we currently have for any promising signs, it would have been a lot of pressure to put on his shoulders. I'm not so sure I agree with your last point either. We have given youngsters more of a chance in recent years - long gone are the Craig Brown days! Darren Fletcher made his debut at 19 I think, Faddy was pretty young when he broke through, Forrest is not long out of the U21s....I could probably find more if I gave it more thought. My point about Rhodes would be moot if we had a quality striker. Miller was bordering on awful in the two games. Are you suggesting that he it was better to keep him on rather than give Rhodes a game because Rhodes is untried? We must be the only country in the world that thinks 21 is young in football terms. Even England are moving on from that, Raheem Sterling and Alex Oxlade Chamberlain being the latest examples. I also think Levein making his opinion of Rhodes public was a disgrace. Did he think that it was a good motivational technique? |I was always taught, praise in public punish in private. I would guess that it was more about Levein telling the world that he is right rather than thinking about the player. Levein is only concerned about one person. HOODLUM65 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1962 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 I think Fletchers shite . Sammy Parkin for Scotland? ancientsaint 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nips Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 My point about Rhodes would be moot if we had a quality striker. Miller was bordering on awful in the two games. Are you suggesting that he it was better to keep him on rather than give Rhodes a game because Rhodes is untried? We must be the only country in the world that thinks 21 is young in football terms. Even England are moving on from that, Raheem Sterling and Alex Oxlade Chamberlain being the latest examples. I also think Levein making his opinion of Rhodes public was a disgrace. Did he think that it was a good motivational technique? |I was always taught, praise in public punish in private. I would guess that it was more about Levein telling the world that he is right rather than thinking about the player. Levein is only concerned about one person. Personally, I would have put Mackie in for Miller ahead of Rhodes. James Forrest is 21 which would suggest its not so much that Rhodes is too young, more that he is untested at a high level and has a lot of hope and expectation being placed upon him. Obviously the SPL isn't exactly La Liga, but it's probably a better standard than what Rhodes was playing against until this season (but that's a debate for another time!) I think Levein's comments were him trying to lower the expectations and pressure that will be put on Rhodes to get goals. What else was he supposed to say when asked why he didn't start Rhodes? He was hardly going to turn round and say, "I should have done, he is the best striker we've had since Dennis Law and I expect he'll break the Scottish record for international goals scored". (Okay, I'm exaggerating but you get my point!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1962 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Personally, I would have put Mackie in for Miller ahead of Rhodes. James Forrest is 21 which would suggest its not so much that Rhodes is too young, more that he is untested at a high level and has a lot of hope and expectation being placed upon him. Obviously the SPL isn't exactly La Liga, but it's probably a better standard than what Rhodes was playing against until this season (but that's a debate for another time!) I think Levein's comments were him trying to lower the expectations and pressure that will be put on Rhodes to get goals. What else was he supposed to say when asked why he didn't start Rhodes? He was hardly going to turn round and say, "I should have done, he is the best striker we've had since Dennis Law and I expect he'll break the Scottish record for international goals scored". (Okay, I'm exaggerating but you get my point!) I get all your points, Mackie would have been my first choice too. Do you think that Levein lowered expectations in any way? All he did was alenate himself further. He is lucky Rhodes is such a level headed young guy, must take that from his mother's side, or he may have had another Fletcher situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nips Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 I get all your points, Mackie would have been my first choice too. Do you think that Levein lowered expectations in any way? All he did was alenate himself further. He is lucky Rhodes is such a level headed young guy, must take that from his mother's side, or he may have had another Fletcher situation. He probably hasn't lowered the expectations no, but part of that is probably down to the fact that nobody wants to listen to him any more, or if they do listen they'll just slate him! He can't do right for doing wrong at the moment and unless results improve that's not going to change, which is fair enough as that tends to be what a manager is judged on when all is said and done. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Rhodes agreed with what Avril had to say, at least to a certain extent. Hopefully he'll use it as motivation to change Avril's mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nips Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 . To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Rhodes agreed with what Avril had to say, at least to a certain extent. Hopefully he'll use it as motivation to change Avril's mind. The comments don't seem to have done him any harm anyway, scored again tonight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rik2304 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Rhodes and Mackail-Smith both in action and scoring tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john1962 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 The comments don't seem to have done him any harm anyway, scored again tonight! As I said he is a level headed guy others night have told Avril to ram it though. I just feel there was no need to go public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babychunder Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 I brought Stevie May into it merely to point out just because you can score goals in a lower division doesn't mean you will be able to do it at a higher level. What have you watched of Rhodes exactly? Fair enough if you've seen him play in a few live games, but if you're judging his finishing ability on the highlights you see on Goals on Sunday then of course you're not going to see him miss sitters. They call it GOALS on Sunday for a reason! ;-). I'm not saying he's not a good finisher - I've only seen him play approx 40 mins of football after all - but without watching him live on a few occasions it's hard to judge ability. Yes, you can judge on goals scored but as has already been pointed out he had only scored at third tier level up until last week. I've a customer up in the grim North who's a mad Uddersfield supporter. He drags me out to the pub Fridays and then takes me to a few of the games. I've seen Rhodes play about 12 times in the last season alone and the boy is amazing, scored at least one in every game I've been to. Good positional sense, big football brain, incredible nose for goal. He'll score for Scotland, and will in time go on to be one of our greatest IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstar101 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 I've a customer up in the grim North who's a mad Uddersfield supporter. He drags me out to the pub Fridays and then takes me to a few of the games. I've seen Rhodes play about 12 times in the last season alone and the boy is amazing, scored at least one in every game I've been to. Good positional sense, big football brain, incredible nose for goal. He'll score for Scotland, and will in time go on to be one of our greatest IMO. Nope. sorry, ODAB doesn't agree....you're talking pish babychunder 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryangordon86 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 I think Rhodes must be one of the most level headed guys in the squad. Genuinely think he'll be appreciated in the same way Darren Fletcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOODLUM65 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 My point about Rhodes would be moot if we had a quality striker. Miller was bordering on awful in the two games. Are you suggesting that he it was better to keep him on rather than give Rhodes a game because Rhodes is untried? We must be the only country in the world that thinks 21 is young in football terms. Even England are moving on from that, Raheem Sterling and Alex Oxlade Chamberlain being the latest examples. I also think Levein making his opinion of Rhodes public was a disgrace. Did he think that it was a good motivational technique? |I was always taught, praise in public punish in private. I would guess that it was more about Levein telling the world that he is right rather than thinking about the player. Levein is only concerned about one person. I am with you on this one John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nips Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 I've a customer up in the grim North who's a mad Uddersfield supporter. He drags me out to the pub Fridays and then takes me to a few of the games. I've seen Rhodes play about 12 times in the last season alone and the boy is amazing, scored at least one in every game I've been to. Good positional sense, big football brain, incredible nose for goal. He'll score for Scotland, and will in time go on to be one of our greatest IMO. I hope you are right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babychunder Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 I hope you are right! He's very good - reminds me of me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODAB Posted September 20, 2012 Report Share Posted September 20, 2012 I've a customer up in the grim North who's a mad Uddersfield supporter. He drags me out to the pub Fridays and then takes me to a few of the games. I've seen Rhodes play about 12 times in the last season alone and the boy is amazing, scored at least one in every game I've been to. Good positional sense, big football brain, incredible nose for goal. He'll score for Scotland, and will in time go on to be one of our greatest IMO. I hope you're right and he's clearly got potential. But as a young lad who hasn't played at any serious level yet, you can surely understand why somebody may be concerned with throwing him straight in a such a high pressure situation? Craig Brewster did it with Goodwillie and the pressure got to him, and set him back a good year. Bojan was similar at Barca. He broke all records at junior levels and there was such a clamour for him to play that he was promoted too early and it clearly hampered his progress. Rhodes has great potential and will be a much better player by the end of this season. If he continues as he has started for Blackburn, and given he seems to be a very level headed young man, then it wouldn't suprise me if he did start in the near future. But as I've said previously, it won't matter who we play up top if the standard of attacking play we currently have doesn't improve. And edstar, I'm flattered with all the attention you like to give me but again try changing it up. Instead of all the pathetic playground comments, try a "your mumma" joke. Maybe try blowing an online raspberry. Or you could even try making a reasoned point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babychunder Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 Always saw that Hasselhof as an arrogant, opinionated, argumentative, vain, preening, self-obsessed bitchy wanker. He probably wears a corset on set, and sleeps wi' a hairnet on like Daphne Broon. Since you're a Dundee United supporter, I wonder if you're related to the Broons - maybe you're Horace in disguise? There's an article here about people who buy dugs that look and act like them, and my theory is that the same applies to avatars. john1962 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstar101 Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 And edstar, I'm flattered with all the attention you like to give me but again try changing it up. Instead of all the pathetic playground comments, try a "your mumma" joke. Maybe try blowing an online raspberry. Or you could even try making a reasoned point. I actually thought that my dig at you was slightly above playground insults, but then again, I am probably not as eductaed as you are (who is??). Also, the post to which I think you refer did actually start with a reasoned point. Perhaps you were too busy being a smug prick to notice? babychunder 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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