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ancientsaint

Rip Nelson Mandela

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The countless millions murdered by the forces of western imperialism, the countless millions who starved to death due to the theft of crops and subsequent famine......when people start describing Winston Churchill and the rest as 'terrorists' I'll accept it for Mandela and others who fought for their peoples, and not before!  The hypocricy of the right is boundless!

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I much prefer Gandhi's approach. Achieved more, and stayed true to the principles he wanted others to adopt.

 

So far we have lefty people praising Mandela and Malcolm X on this thread. What next, Fidel Castro the hero-saviour of Cuba?

The struggle for Indian independence was far more violent than western history records. Gandhi, along with MLK became the cuddly poster boys for non violence....but the struggles they were involved in had armed/violent struggle in the mix, but in the west, history is always rewritten to focus on the 'good n*****s', and denigrates the bloody battles from the conflicts in question.  Peace and love may well be desirable, but not when the red-necks have guns and are lynching anyone who does not do what they are told.

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Still using these shite sources eh? I'm looking forward to that pint over the holidays, BTW.

Good enough to best yours!   :wink:

 

Will you be in town for the United game, 29th I think?

 

I too was sickened by some of the white liberal guilt that spewed into the atmosphere upon Mandela's death, Cameron, and the rest, successive British and American Governments propped up the Pretoria regime and furnished them with the equipment needed to quell rioting populations....truly sickening watching them fall over themselves for a piece of reflected glory.

 

Does anyone know who Andy is talking to?  or is he just howling at the moon?

Edited by Smarmy Arab

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I will deffo be at the United game, and Celtic too if I can get briefs.

 

A pint in town on the 29th sounds good, I presume the 208's enemy territory for you, he he.

 

I've had him on ignore for over a year now. No idea what he's saying these days, but I'm not missing it.

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I'll give you a shout nearer the time, the 208 would be fine for me, bit of a sh*thole though, the Glovers Arms would be my choice....or the Barrossa St Clubie if you sign me in?

 

I had no idea you could put someone 'on ignore'.  is that a button on here or just you're own choice?  Andy has deleted his contribution to this thread.....no wonder really.

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Because the apartheid regime in SA was so evil, many people made the mistake of assuming that those who opposed it must be good guys. For example, Winnie Mandela was convicted of killing a 12 year old, which was upheld on appeal, but as far as I am aware she hasn't served a day, which should tell us something about Mandela's legacy. The party she headed is alleged to have regularly suppressed dissent among their own people by the simple expedient of putting a tyre around their neck, filling it with petrol, and setting it alight. Over 1000 people died this way during that era.

 

South Africa is a mess today, serious crime, rapes, murders, white folks beaten up for no reason, AIDS epidemic etc. That is all conveniently overlooked by those red-coloured sheep who eulogise Mandela, in the mistaken belief that to do so makes them hip and cool.

 

I predict that the unseemly squabbling amongst his family and heirs will eventually cause everyone to see him and his ilk in a different light. They booed that cahnt Zuma at the funeral yesterday and one day they will also boo when Mandela's name is mentioned.

Edited by babychunder

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Because the apartheid regime in SA was so evil, many people made the mistake of assuming that those who opposed it must be good guys. For example, Winnie Mandela was convicted of killing a 12 year old, which was upheld on appeal, but as far as I am aware she hasn't served a day, which should tell us something about Mandela's legacy. The party she headed is alleged to have regularly suppressed dissent among their own people by the simple expedient of putting a tyre around their neck, filling it with petrol, and setting it alight. Over 1000 people died this way during that era.

 

South Africa is a mess today, serious crime, rapes, murders, white folks beaten up for no reason, AIDS epidemic etc. That is all conveniently overlooked by those red-coloured sheep who eulogise Mandela, in the mistaken belief that to do so makes them hip and cool.

 

I predict that the unseemly squabbling amongst his family and heirs will eventually cause everyone to see him and his ilk in a different light. They booed that cahnt Zuma at the funeral yesterday and one day they will also boo when Mandela's name is mentioned.

The ANC chose armed struggle in the face of a regime who thought nothing of deploying the full power of the repressive state apparatus on a defenceless population. IMO they had every right to take up arms and fight tyranny, as did Castro, Malcolm X and others. How else do you address the situation when turning the other cheek results in a bullet, water canon or imprisonment and torture. Whatever Winnie Mandela did it is as nothing compared to the boundless cruelty of the South African state, cruelty that cannot be either recounted or catelogued because of the sheer scale and intensity of the barbarity. My issue with the liberal democracies of the west is that they have profited from barbarous regimes for centuries then start talking about 'democracy', 'freedom' and other platitudes hollowed of all meaning, then claim a piece of the story cos Bono (Boner?) and Geldof appease their stained conscience.

My issue with you over this Chunder is unless you are a pacifist your argument holds no water. Are you saying armed struggle is never justifiable? One other thing....Winnie Mandela's individual criminality cannot under any reasoned analysis equate to 'Mandela's legacy'...FFS!

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Because the apartheid regime in SA was so evil, many people made the mistake of assuming that those who opposed it must be good guys. For example, Winnie Mandela was convicted of killing a 12 year old, which was upheld on appeal, but as far as I am aware she hasn't served a day, which should tell us something about Mandela's legacy. The party she headed is alleged to have regularly suppressed dissent among their own people by the simple expedient of putting a tyre around their neck, filling it with petrol, and setting it alight. Over 1000 people died this way during that era.

 

South Africa is a mess today, serious crime, rapes, murders, white folks beaten up for no reason, AIDS epidemic etc. That is all conveniently overlooked by those red-coloured sheep who eulogise Mandela, in the mistaken belief that to do so makes them hip and cool.

Baaaaaaaaaa.

You're either a seriously bad fascist racist ****, or one of the best internet wind-up merchants in the business. I'm going for the latter.

Outstanding.

 

Edited by Abernethy Saint

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I am not a pacifist by any means. Nor am I an admirer of repressive regimes, dictators, or terrorists. I oppose and despise those who in the course of armed struggle deliberately and wilfully cause loss of life amongst non-combatants, in order to take political power by means of force rather than at the ballot box. I am sure even with your limited choice of reading material (Morning Star?) you can think of a few other "organisations" closer to home who also fit that bill.

 

On Winnie, do you think she would have escaped a jail sentence had she been a nobody who killed a child? I am trying to say that it was one law for Mandela and his cronies, and another for his enemies.

Edited by babychunder

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Speaking to a South African friend, he believes that Mandela being alive in many ways kept the peace and the more extreme elements of the ANC in line out of messiah like reverence for him. 

Now Mandeka has passed he truly believes that South Africa will head down a far more violent path as the extremes on both sides crawl out from under their rocks.

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Interesting debate - not a subject I am particularly well educated about, but I will seek to find out more now.

 

However, as a typically ignorant bystander on this issue, is the label of anti-apartheid figurehead appointed to Mandela not in itself a significant 'advertisement' for global progress against apartheid? Is that in itself not pretty valuable in a world where only a tiny minority are sufficiently educated to know any different, or know all the details?

 

Just a thought.  

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The fate of progressive politics lies, in my view, on inspirational applications of amalgams of superlative visual art, and cutting satire. I spent 3 days on these. Hope you like.

Or I could have just googled "Mandela cartoon".

Have read a lot of Mandela stuff on the net. So far, this is the only site I've seen where closet racists are pedalling the bizarre line that Mandela, and not the Nazi apartheid regime, was the terrorist. Disappointing.

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A collection of snippets from the web.

 

Peter Hammond, a SA missionary, called the ANC "the abortion, necklacing and corruption party". He said "Missionaries and their kids [were] murdered, bayonetted on the fields—whole families killed by landmines planted in the roads".

 

Jenni Russell in the Times today said "President Zuma’s Cabinet is stuffed with politicians who have mysteriously become multi-millionaires, while 40 per cent of voters live on less than $2 a day."

 

"The (former apartheid) regime in SA was a proxy war between the forces of Marxism (the ANC) and anti-communists (the white rulers). Once the Cold War ended, de Klerk and Mandela had no choice but to make their peace."

 

Presidential spokesman Lindiwe Zulu said (about the barracking of Zuma yesterday) that the booing was "humiliating" and those responsible would be "dealt with".

 

Victoria Jackson observes "During 46 years of apartheid rule, 18,000 people had been killed by rioters, police, terrorists and the army, on all sides, including terrorists, civilians, military and police. However in peace time, under Nelson Mandela, an average of 20,000 to 25,000 people were murdered every year".

 

Walter Eriksen said "He did a lot of positive stuff, but he was still a terrorist. Among Afrikaaners rumours have persisted that after Mandela dies there will be retaliation against the country's 9% white minority".

 

On June 3 1990, Nelson Mandela told a press conference after leaving a private clinic that "the only type of violence we accept is organized violence in the form of armed action which is properly controlled and where the targets have been carefully selected".

 

Despite that latter quote, let me recap some of the ANC's "Battle Honours" under Mandela's rule.

-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985
-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988
-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986
-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead
-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987
-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988

 

Carefully selected targets include shopping malls and cinemas? Aye right.

Edited by babychunder

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