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Havana Saint

Disgraceful

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I think the LG incident has been blown out of proportion, I am not ignorant of the wider implications. Celtic dealt with this very quickly and that should have been the end of it. There is no need for the SFA or the law to get involved, it could end up LG getting 3 punishments for this incident. That is not right, whilst football is not above the law, Celtic have issued a substantial fine and a warning to LG on his future conduct.

 

I completely disagree with you that the 3 punishment idea (which you may have transposed from football and its penalty/red/suspension), has any relevance here. The actions of Celtic shouldn't really in my view influence what the SFA does, and the police should not in any way take into account the actions of Celtic or the SFA, as it is an entirely different jurisdiction. I understand your concept of discretion, but where do you draw the line. What about if a drink-driving player is sanctioned by their club? What about a player who kills through drink driving? Is a club fine and warning sufficient then?

For me the only logical place to draw the line in this case in terms of police interest is legal/illegal, not whether the club have sanctioned.

 

Your response to that might well be that your point about how you can't police everyone breaking the law by singing racist songs. This is true, but I'm not asking for everyone to be punished, beautiful as that would be. One of the many considerations of prosecutorial discretion is, for better or for worse, the political and social impacts of the decision, and in a high-profile case such as this, where a famous person has been caught on camera and widely covered in the newspaper, to let it slight purely because you can't catch them all would send the wrong message to the legions of scum desperate to sing such songs, even if only with the intention of annoying their footballing rivals. It would also send the wrong message to those I've criticised in previous posts.

 

Whilst it is highly possible that the police case against LG may come to nothing, it won't be because the police don't consider a footballer singing a racist song worth prosecuting, and it won't be (and shouldn't be) because Celtic have taken action.

P.s. I have greater things to care about in life than lazy grammar stemming from overly long sentences, all the outrageous things going on here that I must become incensed about for example!

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Bringing drink driving or a killing into this is not relevant. In Scotland it is the Procurator Fiscal who decides whether legal proceedings are to be taken, this is usually in conjunction with the police although other bodies may be consulted. In this case I am obviously at the opposite end of the line to you, I think the punishment by Celtic is adequate.

Grammar is important, your second paragraph reads that it was the legal people and police who blew this out of proportion.

Finally, my last word on this, please do not try to guess the arguments I may use. I am a big boy now and can argue for myself.

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Bringing drink driving or a killing into this is not relevant. In Scotland it is the Procurator Fiscal who decides whether legal proceedings are to be taken, this is usually in conjunction with the police although other bodies may be consulted. In this case I am obviously at the opposite end of the line to you, I think the punishment by Celtic is adequate.

 

As you know, you are correct that the Procurator Fiscal will decide whether to pursue legal proceedings. I still don't see your basis for the idea the punishment by Celtic will have any impact on this decision. The drink driving comparison is entirely relevant, as it shows the complete weakness of your argument beyond a single convenient instance

Whilst I can fully accept my grammar was bad, my point was indeed that if people truly think it has been blown out proportion, then that was done by the legislators in prohibiting racist conduct and the police in deeming this song racist and worthy of prosecution, as shown by the Dunfermline fan. I had hoped people might be less willing to consider the it to have been blown out of proportion when they saw the decision was made at that level and not a 'bloody pc brigade' poster.

If you really take offense at someone attempting to preempt your points in order to offer a hypothetical response to them in advance, then perhaps you aren't such a big boy.

Edited by Jiangsu Sainty

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A Fiscal will decide on whether or not to proceed with legal proceedings on all the evidence available to him, it is not a black and white world, he will only proceed if a number of criteria are met. With drink driving and killing almost all cases go to court, as such I think it is unfair to compare these cases. In this case it is my view that the Fiscal will look at the evidence and decide that there is not enough sound evidence to proceed. I may be wrong with this but that's the way I have read it.

I realise the point you were making, and in principal I agree with it.

I did not say I had taken offence to your comments about my return argument. I just do not like anyone trying to put words in my mouth. I get enough of that from lawyers when I am in court.

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1) - A Fiscal will decide on whether or not to proceed with legal proceedings on all the evidence available to him, it is not a black and white world, he will only proceed if a number of criteria are met. With drink driving and killing almost all cases go to court, as such I think it is unfair to compare these cases. In this case it is my view that the Fiscal will look at the evidence and decide that there is not enough sound evidence to proceed. I may be wrong with this but that's the way I have read it.

2) I did not say I had taken offence to your comments about my return argument. I just do not like anyone trying to put words in my mouth. I get enough of that from lawyers when I am in court.

 

1) I too in #76 said the case might not go ahead, also implicitly predicting a supposed lack evidence, but still I don't think Celtic's actions will affect the decision, at least not outwardly/publicly.

RE what is relevant as a comparator, for question of where to consider the club's action, the line of demarcation between legal and illegal in order to enhance clarity. I can understand others feel differently even though I don't agree. That isn't the same as saying that I mandate the same line for when to prosecute

2) Fair enough, sorry

Edited by Jiangsu Sainty

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This case highlights a serious flaw in the law. When a case like this happens all the parties who can punish should meet and a decision taken who should examine the evidence and apply punishment. In this case I am of the opinion that the PF should have looked at this first.

I believe that there is a trial currently in Newcastle where in minor offences the Crown meets with all parties to discuss and action the case. One I heard of was a young woman convicted in court of shoplifting, the meeting brought out she was to lose her job and the Crown asked the judge for no further penalty to be applied.

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This case highlights a serious flaw in the law. When a case like this happens all the parties who can punish should meet and a decision taken who should examine the evidence and apply punishment. In this case I am of the opinion that the PF should have looked at this first.

I believe that there is a trial currently in Newcastle where in minor offences the Crown meets with all parties to discuss and action the case. One I heard of was a young woman convicted in court of shoplifting, the meeting brought out she was to lose her job and the Crown asked the judge for no further penalty to be applied.

 

On the first paragraph, at least we are firmly in the grounds of differing personal opinion, which there is nothing wrong with.

On the second, I would argue that the LG case should be distinguished from that woman in Newcastle, as he is a public figure and only has himself to blame if he cannot finance his life following any unemployment (which will not happen anyway).

If that is going on though then it would appear my pleas for a clear demarcation between legan and illegal are not shared by the judicial system.

It ultimately doesn't affect my stance that in the case in hand the police should not have any regard as to the actions of Celtic

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I agree we differ on the first paragraph and as you say there is nothing wrong with that.

I did not intend to compare the Newcastle case with LG, they are totally different. I do not think that there can be a clear line between legal and illegal, each case is different as are the prosecuting and defence council. The law has many grey areas but that is what often helps to make it a just and proper system. I often act as an expert witness and I am limited to facts when giving evidence, a common trick by council is to get you to say one thing then argue such that you have to say another. Expert witnesses are the only area in a court where it is black and white. I think the proposals to involve more people in the sentencing and or review of a case is a step forward where people will not be overly punished.

The police will look at the LG case but it is the Fiscal who will decide if a prosecution will take place. I do not think this will happen.

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What would awbody be saying ....................If this had been a Saints player slagging off Dundee.........[answer below]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

**** ALL

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He started the song according to reports, that's not getting carried away. Has previous for racism too. He's a disgusting wee ned.

 

 

He started singing a song about Hearts going bust (which is on video) he then allegedly got involved in singing about Rudy!! Hibs fans that were there, however, say he never sang any racial part of the song.

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What would awbody be saying ....................If this had been a Saints player slagging off Dundee.........[answer below]

 

**** ALL

 

This is ridiculous, if it had been a Saints player singing racist songs then my feeling it was worthy of punishment would have been equally as strong.

 

Mainstand, I had got the impression it was all on video, just a different one than that first released. I haven't seen said video. I find it highly unlikely that he was smart enough to refrain from the Rudy song, but no doubt if there isn't a video of it he won't be convicted of anything.

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This is ridiculous, if it had been a Saints player singing racist songs then my feeling it was worthy of punishment would have been equally as strong.

To add, so would any decent Saints fan.

If it had just been the Hearts going bust song, then I'd still think the Saints player was an idiot, but you're probably right we'd all biasedly (and probably incorrectly) think the bringing the game into disrepute or not acting in best interests charge or whatever charge it was was harsh.

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I myself have'nt witnessed the video of LG giving out racial abuse and based what i thought of him singing in the Hearts going burst footage as OTT by the media and others. So now one of the posters who were vocal enough on this thread admits to not seeing the offending video either

 

:roll:

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I myself have'nt witnessed the video of LG giving out racial abuse and based what i thought of him singing in the Hearts going burst footage as OTT by the media and others. So now one of the posters who were vocal enough on this thread admits to not seeing the offending video either

 

:roll:

our entire conversation was based around the media reporting as fact that he was singing the Rudi song.

Seeing it or not is of no importance, given the conversation was about what should happen.

If you were all the while talking about hearts going bust then there were some bizarrely crossed wires, but I know you weren't.

 

Edit - from BBC

 

"""Griffiths has already been disciplined internally by Celtic, but the Scottish champions have not yet commented about the latest footage, which was shot on a mobile telephone in an Edinburgh pub before last week's city derby"".

 

 

"The latest footage", meaning it also shows him singing the Rudi song, as he was already punished for the intial Hearts are going bust video

Edited by Jiangsu Sainty

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I have already took an insult from you on this thread dont you dare try and give me the crap "But i know you were'nt" Just say what you really feel then we can take it from there

I actually meant it as the opposite of an insult, that you surely wouldn't have been so unintelligent as to think people were getting angry about LG's racist actions for singing the song "Heart are going bust", but suit yourself

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I actually meant it as the opposite of an insult, that you surely wouldn't have been so unintelligent as to think people were getting angry about LG's racist actions for singing the song "Heart are going bust", but suit yourself

 

Oh dear oh dear, you really do want to come across as a ****ing right smart arse dont ya

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The concept of things being blown out of proportion has been floating around this thread for a good few pages, and I've now definitely come round to the idea that they have, not just the LG thing but the 'argument' between me and yourself.
It started with you suggesting there was nothing wrong with the Rudi song, to which I called you an idiot dinosaur. I stand by the dinosaur part, even though that doesn't differentiate you in a negative sense from millions of others up and down the country, evidently including this forum, and I've already apologised for the idiot comment, and am still happy to do so.

When you then threatened to leave the forum over people calling out LG, I said good riddance IF that was enough to make you leave, which it clearly hasn't been.
The opening exchanges were already silly, and its all gone downhill from there.
I still stand by everything I've said from an argumentational or factual sense (other than above apology), but I'm sure it could be argued much of it is lacking in necessity, as as you have correctly identified, I'm not averse to being an odious little smart-arse on the internet.
If it is any consoloation, Oldermoresensiblepack's interventions scored far higher on my inscens-o-meter

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In fact, and related to the necessity point above, even seeing the words "I stand by the dinosaur part" is beginning to somewhat silly and/or blown out of proportion.
With hindsight something more like "in my opinion entirely wrong on this issue" would have sufficed. Ack well

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Privileged position...should know better. He more than most should be aware of the consequences of his actions. So no excuse really.. Don't defend the indefensible...low life with limited IQ...⚽️No great asset to the game!

i do not recall hsf getting on one of her many high horses about the peterhead fan (scum)making a seventeen year old black player burst into to tears

not the same coverage on here either but as hsf states this forum is full of racist apologists

did anyone go on the peterhead website to register their disgust

is lg getting picked on because he is famous

for the record i think lg is a horrible person but he does score a lot of goals

just for the pc brigade which was the bigger disgrace the treatment of rudi or the seventeen year old player just starting out on his career

Edited by lmsaintee

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To be fair HSF, did you even register on the Peterhead forums? It's well known that doing so what have rid the world of racism forever.
Bet you weren't protesting at the Steven Lawrence enquiry or the Washington March in 1963 either? How dare you pretend to find racism disgraceful....

 

lmssaintee - scoring goals = immunity from blame? Careful now...

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