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Havana Saint

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I struggle like many to see why the word refugee is classed as a racist term.

 

The UN definition is:

 

Refugee – According to the UN Refugee Convention, a refugee is a person who is outside their own country and is unable or unwilling to return due to a well-founded fear of being persecuted because of their race, religion, nationalist, membership of a particular social group, political group, sexual orientation.

 

So is chanting that someone is a refugee any differnet from saying someone is a wan*er. a poof or even worse a paedo.

Edited by mainstand

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I struggle like many to see why the word refugee is classed as a racist term.

 

The UN definition is:

 

Refugee – According to the UN Refugee Convention, a refugee is a person who is outside their own country and is unable or unwilling to return due to a well-founded fear of being persecuted because of their race, religion, nationalist, membership of a particular social group, political group, sexual orientation.

 

So is chanting that someone is a refugee any differnet from saying someone is a wan*er. a poof or even worse a paedo.

 

That's fine, but as far as I can tell no one is actually trying to say that the word 'refugee' is inherently racist. It's a perfectly legitimate term to describe the group you mention. The issue is with the context it's used in: i.e. taking an indvidual who is an immigrant from an eastern European nation, labelling them (incorrectly) with the 'refugee' tag purely because of their ethnic background, and chanting about it in a way that implies it's intended as an insult. Similarly, no one would claim the word 'black' is racist, but if a bunch of us start chanting that someone is a 'black b*stard', it takes on a completely different intent.

 

I'm fairly sure that if I approached an eastern European person in my workplace and called them a 'f*cking refugee', it'd be considered racist.

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If I say to the bairn, be quiet ye cheeky wee monkey, that's not racist. However if there were any black people involved, then offence would be taken at the word monkey because of racist connotations.

 

Similarly, when people down here ask me why I came to London, I tell them that I'm an economic refugee. Although I am Scottish, I don't mind anyone calling me a refugee, and I don't consider it racist.

 

The whole thing is fraught; apparently the word "coloured" is offensive now, but "black" is OK. Is it OK to call a Japanese person yellow? Or a Red Indian red? Or is he a Native American now? What about Maoris and Aborigines. I think the dimunitive "Abo" is racist now.

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Baby, I think the idea is to be guided by how they feel about what you call them. Not by how you feel about it. That, in essence, is the meaning of respect. If quite a lot of people don't like being called "Abo" (or eg Red Indian - seriously you would call a fellow human that -seriously???) you have two choices.

 

1/ Call them "Abo" because you're a complete and utter d***.

 

2/ Don't call them "Abo" because by simply avoiding the use of a three-letter word, you won't be a complete and utter d***.

 

The world is a very simple pace if you choose it to be.

 

Please tell me you're a wind-up merchant. You can't really, seriously be that daft.

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By the way, Baby, I was born in Singapore. Am I a chink, a slanty-eyes, a gook? A coon, a refugee, a benefit scrounger? But of course you can call me that, because if I complain, and I get upset, and my wife gets upset, and m children get upset, well it's just PC gone mad, isn't it? 

 

 

I dunno about PC going mad but I am slightly worried that you are going a bit mad. :wink:  First 4 are on the top 50 list of racist phrases/words ( in my book).  I have already  stated my personal opinion on number 5

 

  Are we to add "Benefit Scrounger" to the list. I am a bit worried that I earlier  refered to Dons fans as "Mutton Molestors"

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Baby, I think the idea is to be guided by how they feel about what you call them. Not by how you feel about it....... 

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So Abernathy, now that you have educated us on the process, have you or anyone actually asked Skacel if he's offended? Has the UK Czechoslovakian ambassador raised his concern politically? Are Czechs (Am I allowed to say that?) living in Scotland picketing Celtic Park?

 

Does anyone here truly think Skacel or anyone from Czechoslavakia gives a flying fuk about some dumb song that to them means nothing more than calling him a well paid tourist? If he was from a war torn country that had suffered mass genocide, resulting in his family finding 'refuge' in a foreign land, it would be offensive and probably worthy of a charge, but a Czech??? 

 

Here's a Saint in Texas raising his glass to the return of 'Jurassic' sized common sense :)

Edited by Texas-Saint

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Calming down now.  And breath. Why do people put so much effort into hating people when it takes no effort at all to love?

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I hope its not too soon to throw a Boratesque joke in?

 

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An American doctor visits a Czechoslovak hospital and is given a full tour. Finally, he is taken to the AIDS ward, and the Czech doctor explains that the AIDS patients are well cared for and well fed.
 
"We give them pancakes three times a day," he says.
"Pancakes?" Asks the American, "Is this some new treatment?"
"No," says the Czech, "It's the only thing that fits under the doors."
Edited by Texas-Saint

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You're no allowed Scotsman, Englishman, and Irishman jokes now, but I'm telling one anyway.

 

Jock, Cecil and Paddy are in the sauna. A faint ringing noise comes from Cecil's palm. He presses his finger on the back of his palm, lifts his hand to his ear and starts having a conversation.

 

Jock and Paddy are puzzled, "What was that?" they ask, and Cecil replies "That's my subcutaneous 3G mobile phone implant".

 

Few minutes later Jock presses his finger on his temple and starts having a conversation. "What's THAT?" the others ask, and Jock says "That's my 4G Neural Implant, powered by thought waves".

 

By now Paddy's feeling a bit low tech so he slinks off to the heads, when he returns the others start laughing and say "Paddy you've got a bit of bog paper hanging down from your arse".

 

Paddy looks down at it and says "Well now would ye look at that, I must be gettin' a fax"......

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I really worry about a lot of you.
It isn't about asking Skacel if he is offended. Are we going to say you can run around abusing people with all the terms you all can probably accept are racist, e.g. the 'n' word, and then its only illegal if you then have to ask your poor victim after the event if they are offended and then only if they say yes? Fair enough Skacel most likely would shrug it off, but you have to set general rules or else more vulnerable people will suffer. Don't see how you mugs don't get that. 

As for all of you saying refugee isn't a racist term. Ok, in isolation it isnt, but as I've said in a number of posts context and implied prejudice are what matters. How about the word 'black'. The word 'black' isn't racist, but you trying to tell me that it doesn't become racist when used in a certain way. JT was simply pointing out Ferdinand's skin tone in a descriptive way? How about one of you geniuses wikipedias 'black' and tries to tell me you can't comprehend what is remotely racist about it? Same goes for the word immigrant. There are immigrants in the UK, it isn't a racist word, it is a description. Call someone a ****ing immigrant, or tell them to go home or whatever, and it becomes racist. 

Same goes for refugee. 

 

Chips, we have different opinions. Legally, we are both entitled to our opinions. There is nothign illegal about either of us having our opinions. Only one of our opinions is illegal if acted upon in a certain way. Doesn't that give you an idea about the moral value of your shit little opinion? 

Ghost, you keep saying you will decide if calling someone an effing refugee is racist if LG is convicted. Are you just ignoring all the posts where it is pointed out with a BBC news reference as proof that a Dunfermline fan was criminally convicted for the same ****ing song? The song is racist, as both the law of Scotland and anyone with half a brain could tell you. LG may or may not be convicted, so basing your determination of its racist content on that would be pretty unwise, seeing as if he doesn't get convicted it will be because the video doesn't show him sufficiently participating, or some other reason, but NOT that it isn't racist.
 

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I really worry about a lot of you.

It isn't about asking Skacel if he is offended. Are we going to say you can run around abusing people with all the terms you all can probably accept are racist, e.g. the 'n' word, and then its only illegal if you then have to ask your poor victim after the event if they are offended and then only if they say yes? Fair enough Skacel most likely would shrug it off, but you have to set general rules or else more vulnerable people will suffer. Don't see how you mugs don't get that. 

As for all of you saying refugee isn't a racist term. Ok, in isolation it isnt, but as I've said in a number of posts context and implied prejudice are what matters. How about the word 'black'. The word 'black' isn't racist, but you trying to tell me that it doesn't become racist when used in a certain way. JT was simply pointing out Ferdinand's skin tone in a descriptive way? How about one of you geniuses wikipedias 'black' and tries to tell me you can't comprehend what is remotely racist about it? Same goes for the word immigrant. There are immigrants in the UK, it isn't a racist word, it is a description. Call someone a ****ing immigrant, or tell them to go home or whatever, and it becomes racist. 

Same goes for refugee. 

 

Chips, we have different opinions. Legally, we are both entitled to our opinions. There is nothign illegal about either of us having our opinions. Only one of our opinions is illegal if acted upon in a certain way. Doesn't that give you an idea about the moral value of your shit little opinion? 

Ghost, you keep saying you will decide if calling someone an effing refugee is racist if LG is convicted. Are you just ignoring all the posts where it is pointed out with a BBC news reference as proof that a Dunfermline fan was criminally convicted for the same ****ing song? The song is racist, as both the law of Scotland and anyone with half a brain could tell you. LG may or may not be convicted, so basing your determination of its racist content on that would be pretty unwise, seeing as if he doesn't get convicted it will be because the video doesn't show him sufficiently participating, or some other reason, but NOT that it isn't racist.

 

Edited by Texas-Saint

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Chips, we have different opinions. Legally, we are both entitled to our opinions. There is nothign illegal about either of us having our opinions. Only one of our opinions is illegal if acted upon in a certain way. Doesn't that give you an idea about the moral value of your shit little opinion?

 

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Jiangsu, stop being disrespectful of others' opinion. The point of this is to change views, not reinforce them. More mature debate is required.

 

 

My view is and always has been the same. Anyone who judges anyone on the basis of their sex, sexual preference, skin colour, religion etc is, de facto, an idiot. I meet people. Some of them are cunts. I ask the Babychunders of this world over and over again, why are they cunts because of their skin colour, sexuality, gender etc. Not one sensible answer, ever. Because it's nonsense. People are cunts because they are cunts. Not because they are Abos. Racism is total shit, stupid and thick, and those of you who support it in the various ways you support it are total wankers. For the times they are a'changing,

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Jiangsu, stop being disrespectful of others' opinion. The point of this is to change views, not reinforce them. More mature debate is required.

 

 

My view is and always has been the same. Anyone who judges anyone on the basis of their sex, sexual preference, skin colour, religion etc is, de facto, an idiot. I meet people. Some of them are cunts. I ask the Babychunders of this world over and over again, why are they cunts because of their skin colour, sexuality, gender etc. Not one sensible answer, ever. Because it's nonsense. People are cunts because they are cunts. Not because they are Abos. Racism is total shit, stupid and thick, and those of you who support it in the various ways you support it are total wankers. For the times they are a'changing,

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1/  Czechs are not refugees and the song is extremely stupid, not racist. Skacel is not a victim.

 

I've got no issue with the other four points you made in your post, but is this one genuinely what you think? That it's not racist because it's stupid and inaccurate? Because a hell of a lot of racism is precisely those things. Black people aren't actually monkeys - does that mean monkey chanting at football matches isn't racist?

 

If anything, the inaccuracy is part of the racism. It's perpetuating the Daily Mail/Channel 5 attitude that people who come here from that general area of Europe are on the run from something, leaving behind some sort of backward or impoverished background, coming "to our country" because they want to take our jobs or money or benefits. Never mind the fact that Skacel, and many like him, are actually skilled individuals who are more than capable or supporting themselves. He's come here from "over there", so he's a "f**king refugee". How can that not be racist?

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I've got no issue with the other four points you made in your post, but is this one genuinely what you think? That it's not racist because it's stupid and inaccurate? Because a hell of a lot of racism is precisely those things. Black people aren't actually monkeys - does that mean monkey chanting at football matches isn't racist?

 

If anything, the inaccuracy is part of the racism. It's perpetuating the Daily Mail/Channel 5 attitude that people who come here from that general area of Europe are on the run from something, leaving behind some sort of backward or impoverished background, coming "to our country" because they want to take our jobs or money or benefits. Never mind the fact that Skacel, and many like him, are actually skilled individuals who are more than capable or supporting themselves. He's come here from "over there", so he's a "f**king refugee". How can that not be racist?

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To me this point is a legal one and has nothing to do with how I personally feel about these idiots and what perhaps they were attempting to sing and what may be racist intent, I can't make that call. There may be other reasons they call him a refugee, perhaps because he has no Czechoslovakian club wanting him, he's on no team, no home, (like having no country), I've no clue, a judge will now decide I guess. 

 

Legally, I just can't budge on this basic point that calling a Czech a refugee is not a racist comment. If someone called a black person a '****in Inuit' is that a racist comment? My black friends would find this hysterical, in the stupidity of the moron not realizing an Inuit was indigenous to the Arctic/Polar region.

 

Perhaps the Dunfermline fan who was charged had priors for racist attacks and made a racist comment in court, again, none of us know. If Skacel was a Bosniak/Bosnian Muslim or Central African I would not even be in this discussion as that would be clearer on the intent. But you have to draw the line somewhere with fact! I mean if he was Russian, Ukrainian or Italian would calling him a refugee be racist? It's just crazy to me, I've been to Prague, its nicer than most cities in Scotland!

 

Anyway, on this fabulous day I will bow out of this thread now and focus on saints and getting to the cup final. Interesting discussion though, perhaps I've just been away from Scotland too long and I'm not up to speed on the ethnic changes and what is culturally accepted with Czech people.

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