Yes Or Naw?

[saintbear]

Red Tories you just got to love them,,,'WE ARE THE 45. The fight goes on

[sixties saintee]

I'll hurl abuse at anyone regardless of party if they are nothing more than a charlatan. Dugdale is a serial liar, and not a very good one, who is nothing more than a SLAB apparatchik. If it's a toss-up between the interests of the people and the interests of the Labour Party, she'll tow the party line every time. There's nothing worse than a fake socialist, but you'd never notice them in the Labour Party nowadays, because they're all fake... with the exception of Dennis Skinner.

The unionists seem to have difficulty in getting their heads round the fact that it wasn't just Nationalists on the Yes side, something that your "Rob Roy's" comment proves. Let's get this quite clear, the SNP were only the vehicle to get the referendum on the statute book. I have only independence and scrapping Trident in common with the Nationalists, but I can say without doubt, neo-liberal SLAB have sod all in common with me. As for the ConDems...

 

 

Dont include Ian Laverly in that Mp for Wansbeck Dennis is training him up nicely , Lisa Nandy Wigan MP is another one. but stuggle to think of any more

[canuck_saint]

At the end of the day, you can keep your SLAB lies and I'll keep campaigning for an independent Scottish Republic.

 

Yay,extremely rich people with a vested interest (like a certain Soutar who you claim to disdain) will have an even bigger leverage over an ever small regional parliament.

 

Cant see how that could ever work badly for the man in the street

 

ChampagneSocialism at work !?

[Denzil]

Yay,extremely rich people with a vested interest (like a certain Soutar who you claim to disdain) will have an even bigger leverage over an ever small regional parliament.

 

Cant see how that could ever work badly for the man in the street

 

ChampagneSocialism at work !?

 

 

No "claim" about it, I have utter contempt for the man. Ah yes, Soutar's got huge leverage over the Scottish Government. Look how he managed to completely block the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Bill earlier this year. Oh, wait a minute... he didn't.

 

Try again.

[Wendy Saints]

NO campaign, if you vote yes we risk the price of oil falling .... Wait a minute NO vote & lo & behold the oil price plummets!?

Scaremongering on a large scale, let's just hope the electorate who were duped to vote NO remember all the lies that were passed out as fact when it comes to voting at the next election!?

[saintee4life]

NO campaign, if you vote yes we risk the price of oil falling .... Wait a minute NO vote & lo & behold the oil price plummets!?

Scaremongering on a large scale, let's just hope the electorate who were duped to vote NO remember all the lies that were passed out as fact when it comes to voting at the next election!?

oil would drop regardless of a yes or a no. Do you think the Saudis give a **** if we voted yes or no

[Wendy Saints]

oil would drop regardless of a yes or a no. Do you think the Saudis give a **** if we voted yes or no

Exactly..however voters were peddled a lie that a yes vote would mean an oil price slump! Anyone with half a brain knew that was a load of hokum

[saintee4life]

Exactly..however voters were peddled a lie that a yes vote would mean an oil price slump! Anyone with half a brain knew that was a load of hokum

must've missed that one WendySaints

[Smarmy Arab]

the results of scotland voting will not make much difference to the results of next years election. Here a link, theres lots of tables around on the net to demonstrate it but i can't work out how to put the pic in here.

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/11/why-scottish-independence-wouldnt-mean-permanent-majority-tories

 

i think we've only had any effect a couple of times since 1945. i think what you should say vote for Nicola........wake up with whoever wins England and Wales.

 

Nice of you to mention oil prices, really bad that folk are going to lose their jobs.

 

 

Council tax may well save the rich as well but i don't think i can afford it to rise so its good for me and others who don't get much of a wage rise.

 

Ask you one question you mention the power to vary income tax. if your in charge of Scotland what would you do with it. Leave it as it is or go into an election saying you'd put it up? I don't think i'd vote for you if you said you'd put it up

Not that I would ever dismiss history Rams, and voting evidence of the last 70 years is important, (the main message being its Labour or Tory mores the pity!) but I think things are changing there are now protest options and England will now be a 4 way split, and with any luck the Greens will also make an impact.  If you don't want to increase taxes for the rich....then yeah vote Tory or SNP.

[rammsteinally]

4 way split? labour Lib dems Conservative and UKIP even more important to not vote for the branch office

[Smarmy Arab]

Good for you, I'm so pleased for you. Are you Del Rashid? Given that you repeat parrot-fashion that SLAB bulshit about "a vote for the SNP will let the Tories in" when that is downright nonsense as rammsteinally has correctly already pointed out, giving you examples of Dugdale's fantasies she passes off as fact (she's very good at it, I'll give you that) would be a waste of my time. If you're desperate to find examples, Google it. IIRC Derek Bateman also had a few belters in his blog. It's not entirely all her fault though. If what passes for a journalist in this country actually challenged some of the nonsense that comes out of her and her ilks mouthes instead of going along with it, they'd quickly shut up. Then again, the MSM is the State's mouthpiece and and the State is inherently malevolent, requiring the general ignorance of the population to function. As such, the "elites" aren't going to be challenged any time soon.

 

No, you've never discussed the constituent parts of the Yes campaign with me, but as I was a member of the said campaign I think I'm probably in a better place to judge its make-up. I would however say, that the SNP at times were more of a hinderance than a help, but as the party of Government, we had to roll with it. They were, as I've already said, only the vehicle so flame away at them if you wish as it's no skin off my nose. What was clear though was that the Yes votes certainly in Dundee and I'd hazard a guess in Glasgow too were achieved in no small way by all the hard work put in by RIC, not the SNP. The SNP were far too complacent, which perhaps gives creedence to the suposition that this was "testing the water" and they weren't 100% behind the campaign. True, the economic circumstances were not right - we're at the wrong end of the recession - but if Gideon continues to **** up the economy, those factors will come into play again. What is needed though is the Scottish middle classes to feel the pinch. They're not at the moment and that was telling.

 

Soutar is a particularly vile character and my views on him are on here in other threads. You can search for them if you feel the need. I'm also not a spokesman for  the SNP, so if you want an answer to how a reduction of Corp Tax will reduce foodbanks, you'll have to contact your local MP or MSP. I can only give you an opinion, and that is that while I understand the rationale that in theory reducing Corp Tax would give corporations additional money to be used to create new jobs. However, how many would say thanks very much and trouser the loot, or produce loads of 0 hour jobs which would require more subsidy through benefits, and with it increased, not decreased, need for foodbanks?

 

At the end of the day, you can keep your SLAB lies and I'll keep campaigning for an independent Scottish Republic.

Thanks for the reply, a lot in there, so bare with me.  You seem remarkably wound up over my critique of the SNP....touch a wee nationalist nerve Denzil?     All kidding aside Denzil, lets both leave the condescendence aside for the moment as I don't think we are that far apart on most things, and I did think we had discussed the Yes campaign in the past, but am happy to now.  I went to several Yes events and was unimpressed by what I found...no debate, little discussion, and a hegemonic populism which was always doomed to fail.  You simply cannot have Tommy Sheridan fronting a campaign funded by Brian Soutar.....or a campaign simultaneously inviting support from Noam Chomsky and Rupert Murdoch, IMO it becomes something of a farce.  More pertinent was the constituent parts.  The Yes campaign recuited as crusaders the Trots and the Greens, who with more than a hint of shameless opportunism flocked to the nationalist banner.  But electorally they represent under 5% of the population. (a 5% that includes me!)  The SNP represent 42% (at the last election) therefore it was the SNP who drew my attention and their nutty neoliberal White Paper!  The rhertoric of the Yes campaign was for social justice, in practice the policies were of a different order.  My fear was always that that iScotland would be catastrophic for the UK labour movement (in its broadest terms) and would be welcomed (although never publically) buy UKIP and the Tories.  I had no faith an iScotland would be in an condition for progresive politics to prevail, indeed it would have been shafted in negotiations with rUK (which may well be dealing with a Farage/ Boris coalition..shudder) and by the EU who are still emerging from the deepest austerity since post war and would strip i~Scotland of everything it could. In these circumstances a big tent Nationalist party would rule for a generation and would be a centre right party in open trade war with a center right rUK.  The poor and vulnerable would be hammered on both sides of the border and public services sliced and diced to suit the new economic 'reality'.  Although the SNP have rocketed in membership there may yet be a wicked sting in the tail for them.  They are fortunate they will not have a conference before the election (just the spring one which will be another flag shagging rally) as those who have made up the membership of the SNP for the last 50 years will be clashing with the born-again-nationalists who conflate and confuse social justice and nationalism...not what they are about, never have been!  I left the Labour Party in 1989 and have been its biggest critic since, however I prefer to think about a labour movement and am worried that elements of the ruling class see this whole invidious debate as an opportunity to destroy what is left of organised labour......for all its faults, and they are many, pounding the labour movement into the ground on either side of the border would be a mistake at this juncture.  Social democracy has lost its way, the 3rd way was a disastrous turn and the Blair years downright wicked, but IMO to join or openly support the nationalists is a retreat from class politics...perhaps the last retreat...and is tantamount to drinking a cup of poison hoping it will kill your enemy.

 

(I did google KD lies but it only took me to the dodgy Wings Over Bath website, you know the one covered in not so krypto-fascist insignia....no thanks there is enough bilious drivel in this debate without me seeking any more. )

[rammsteinally]

doesn't matter what the site is you just check if she actually said it, that said the fact she asks Nicola the 3 things she simply must do, when we have no contol over them says to me shes just sniping for snipings sake

[Brogan]

I think Dugdale is a nicer person than Murphy. Her problem is that she's been promoted beyond her abilities and that's already showing.

[Kyle]

I think Dugdale is a nicer person than Murphy. Her problem is that she's been promoted beyond her abilities and that's already showing.

 

I actually think Dudgale had potential, but this has come far too soon for her. Very sink or swim environment and having Murphy as your leader really wont help her cause. She is the kind of person the traditional labour voter could support though.

[Brogan]

I actually think Dudgale had potential, but this has come far too soon for her. Very sink or swim environment and having Murphy as your leader really wont help her cause. She is the kind of person the traditional labour voter could support though.

 

Really? I'm not the target audience, but I struggle to see the appeal to the traditional labour voter of someone who hasn't yet offered much more than vapid soundbites. She's no Dennis Canavan.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Brogan

[Denzil]

Thanks for the reply, a lot in there, so bare with me.  You seem remarkably wound up over my critique of the SNP....touch a wee nationalist nerve Denzil?     All kidding aside Denzil, lets both leave the condescendence aside for the moment as I don't think we are that far apart on most things, and I did think we had discussed the Yes campaign in the past, but am happy to now.  I went to several Yes events and was unimpressed by what I found...no debate, little discussion, and a hegemonic populism which was always doomed to fail.  You simply cannot have Tommy Sheridan fronting a campaign funded by Brian Soutar.....or a campaign simultaneously inviting support from Noam Chomsky and Rupert Murdoch, IMO it becomes something of a farce.  More pertinent was the constituent parts.  The Yes campaign recuited as crusaders the Trots and the Greens, who with more than a hint of shameless opportunism flocked to the nationalist banner.  But electorally they represent under 5% of the population. (a 5% that includes me!)  The SNP represent 42% (at the last election) therefore it was the SNP who drew my attention and their nutty neoliberal White Paper!  The rhertoric of the Yes campaign was for social justice, in practice the policies were of a different order.  My fear was always that that iScotland would be catastrophic for the UK labour movement (in its broadest terms) and would be welcomed (although never publically) buy UKIP and the Tories.  I had no faith an iScotland would be in an condition for progresive politics to prevail, indeed it would have been shafted in negotiations with rUK (which may well be dealing with a Farage/ Boris coalition..shudder) and by the EU who are still emerging from the deepest austerity since post war and would strip i~Scotland of everything it could. In these circumstances a big tent Nationalist party would rule for a generation and would be a centre right party in open trade war with a center right rUK.  The poor and vulnerable would be hammered on both sides of the border and public services sliced and diced to suit the new economic 'reality'.  Although the SNP have rocketed in membership there may yet be a wicked sting in the tail for them.  They are fortunate they will not have a conference before the election (just the spring one which will be another flag shagging rally) as those who have made up the membership of the SNP for the last 50 years will be clashing with the born-again-nationalists who conflate and confuse social justice and nationalism...not what they are about, never have been!  I left the Labour Party in 1989 and have been its biggest critic since, however I prefer to think about a labour movement and am worried that elements of the ruling class see this whole invidious debate as an opportunity to destroy what is left of organised labour......for all its faults, and they are many, pounding the labour movement into the ground on either side of the border would be a mistake at this juncture.  Social democracy has lost its way, the 3rd way was a disastrous turn and the Blair years downright wicked, but IMO to join or openly support the nationalists is a retreat from class politics...perhaps the last retreat...and is tantamount to drinking a cup of poison hoping it will kill your enemy.

 

(I did google KD lies but it only took me to the dodgy Wings Over Bath website, you know the one covered in not so krypto-fascist insignia....no thanks there is enough bilious drivel in this debate without me seeking any more. )

 

Apologies in advance if this turns into a bit of a ramble… it’s late. Nah mate, not wound up in the slightest about the your cretique. It just boils my piss when Labour bangs on about how a vote for anyone other than Labour will let the Tories in. It’s utter nonsense, that’s all; in the last General Election, Labour won 41 of the 59 seats in Scotland. What did we get? We get what England votes for, end of. On individual matters, we might be close on some aspects, but I’d hazard a guess that overall, my political compass is waaaaaaay south of yours

 

I’m not surprised you were unimpressed by the several Yes events you went to. You’ll never find debate if the other side refuse to put anyone up or mysteriously (and by the end of the referendum campaign, predictably) cancel at the last minute. This was part of their gameplan and understandably so, as they didn’t want to debate. Knowledge is power, and knowing that your opponent will destroy your argument is no incentive to debate. Project Fear was feart of losing debates.

 

The interesting thing about the Yes campaign as you alluded to was the broad political spectrum that it attracted. No, we weren’t following the Nationalist banner that the Nats were, just as you were not following a British Nationalist banner, although all the unsavoury elements of mainland UK politics and beyond certainly were. The telling thing was that the establishment expected that all the different elements would start to bicker and the Yes campaign would collapse as a result. When we didn’t, they absolutely shat it.

 

Anyone is welcome to bang on about the White Paper to me as much as they want, but they’re really wasting their time. It was the SNP’s wishlist, nothing more as far as I’m concerned. Even I didn’t bother wasting too much time poring over it as regardless of it's content, nothing would have been decided until the independence negotiations had taken place. Regardless of how nutty it was, it did provide a starting point. However, if anyone thinks that I would be looking for a Scottish system of government akin to a beefed-up version of what we have now, they couldn’t be more wrong. The system doesn’t work, and no amount of tinkering around the edges is going to make one iota of difference – the same professional politicians will still be in place at the end of the day. On 18 September, we had a chance to utterly destroy the current system, "Smash the State" if you prefer, and start again to produce one fit for purpose and capable of providing governance for the 21^st Century and beyond, instead of the 17^th Century. However, for whatever their individual reasons, the Scottish electorate bottled it. Fear won out.

 

Whatever happens now with the SNP’s bloated membership is entirely up to them. I’m not a member and as I’ve said previously, have no intention of joining. I still however have enduring doubts about the SNP’s commitment to the Yes campaign. In traditionally strong SNP areas, their campaigning approach seemed lackadaisical, almost as if they were only going through the motions. This may indeed be the case, as the economic conditions were not right and their case regarding the currency and Europe for example were weak and half-arsed. Yes we could have used the Pound, but why the hang-up on “lender of last resort”? The Fed, not the BofE was the UK’s lender of last resort in 2008 so why not point this out left, right and centre?

 

To me, it almost seems like they only sat up and took notice when in the run-in the erroneous polls had the vote too close to call. Let’s not forget that it was joe-public, including the Trots, Marxists, Greens, Anarchists and the non-aligned who had got the campaign to that level, not the politicians or Yes campaign hierarchy. They had lost control of the campaign as it took on a life of it’s own, and it was the politicians who were dragged along. If we could do that against the state machine and it’s entire UK media mouthpiece, we can sure as hell do anything we want. Indyref2 will happen, but it will be at a time of our choosing, not that of the politicians. In the meantime, we will prepare, but over-reliance on the financial sector must be diluted and bank notes issued from a central Scottish bank should be a pre-requisite. Clearing banks issuing bank notes is a nonsense in this day and age.

 

One thing from the outside looking into the labour movement… the biggest treat to it comes not from the SNP up here, or the Tories/UKIP down south. It comes from the Labour Party itself aided and abetted by a trades union movement which itself is now a clone of everything that is wrong with Labour. Labour politicians and the full-time union officials serve only their own interests, not those of the electorate/members, the sooner people waken up and realise that, the better.

 

Finally, I am still utterly flummoxed by the fact that the Labour Party allowed themselves to become the sacrificial lamb in the referendum. They walked headlong into the trap set by the Tories, and it was so blatantly obvious that it’s even more baffling as to why they fell into it. Win the referendum and the socialist west of Scotland will vote against them in the General Election (the Tories obviously believe SLAB propaganda too, hahaha ); Lose the referendum and it’s all Labour’s fault and approx 41 Labour in Scotland seats disappear in all General Elections. Win/Win from a Tory perspective surely?

 

BTW, I wasn’t actually meaning “Wings over Bath” – very good by the way, that gave me a chuckle – the stuff was on You Tube, but having just had a look for it again it’s been removed. Given her new elevated position, it looks like Ms Dugdale’s boss’s minders are taking care of any of her embarrassing outbursts in true Zanu-Labour style… sweep it away; it never happened. State censorship? Surely not?

Edited December 31, 2014 by Denzil

[saintee4life]

Braw post denzil must've took a bit of writing, the bit about labour and the unions very true and imo has always been the case

[Smarmy Arab]

Thanks again for the reply Denzil, and a happy new year.

 

First point I would like to address, you say;

 

 

"I’m not surprised you were unimpressed by the several Yes events you went to. You’ll never find debate if the other side refuse to put anyone up or mysteriously (and by the end of the referendum campaign, predictably) cancel at the last minute. This was part of their gameplan and understandably so, as they didn’t want to debate. Knowledge is power, and knowing that your opponent will destroy your argument is no incentive to debate. Project Fear was feart of losing debates.

 

The interesting thing about the Yes campaign as you alluded to was the broad political spectrum that it attracted. No, we weren’t following the Nationalist banner that the Nats were, just as you were not following a British Nationalist banner, although all the unsavoury elements of mainland UK politics and beyond certainly were. The telling thing was that the establishment expected that all the different elements would start to bicker and the Yes campaign would collapse as a result. When we didn’t, they absolutely shat it."

 

The lack of debate between the Yes and No is not what I was referring to.  It was the populism of the Yes campaign itself...the broad spectrum was, for me way too broad and was dominated by the SNP, the other elements would have been marginalised immediately in the event of a Yes vote.  Alex Salmond was unequivocal in his assertion that he was seeking a mandate for his White Paper, whatever the Greens or the Socialists thought was irrelevant, the Soutar funded Nats were calling the shots....and IMO they would have dominated Scottish politics for a generation, for the reasons I stated earlier.

 

 

Secondly, you said;

 

On 18 September, we had a chance to utterly destroy the current system, "Smash the State" if you prefer, and start again to produce one fit for purpose and capable of providing governance for the 21^st Century and beyond, instead of the 17^th Century. However, for whatever their individual reasons, the Scottish electorate bottled it. Fear won out.

 

I see no evidence that the state would be smashed, such talk, always struck me as frenzied aspirations from campaigners drunk on their own hubris.....there were no plans to smash anything, just cut a deal, a deal with forces far greater than a few disaffected Nationalists, who even with 51% of the vote would  barely constitute 6% of the UK total. 

 

Thirdly;

 

Finally, I am still utterly flummoxed by the fact that the Labour Party allowed themselves to become the sacrificial lamb in the referendum.

 

I cannot understand why you would say this.  This was a referendum not an election and the Yes campaign had displayed zero introspection as to why they lost.  They took Glasgow, (the Holy Grail for the SNP), Dundee (2% of the Scottish population) and a couple of other areas in the West, but they failed spectacularly in Perthshire, Angus, Highlands & Islands, Aberdeenshire, Lothian & Borders, Fife.  Most of these areas have a bridgehead of SNP support and rejected Indy by 60%, you can dismiss this as fear if you wish, I would rather consider it a rejection of a plan to partition of this island, for a complex of reasons.  The mood among the Yes campaigners that I know is to turn away from this reality and seek to push on for a further 5%........despite the polls this is, IMO a huge error, and an insult (another insult) to the millions who voted to remain part of a larger polity for social, cultural and economic reasons. 

 

 

One more, I nearly forgot;

 

It just boils my piss when Labour bangs on about how a vote for anyone other than Labour will let the Tories in. It’s utter nonsense, that’s all; in the last General Election, Labour won 41 of the 59 seats in Scotland. What did we get? We get what England votes for, end of. On individual matters, we might be close on some aspects, but I’d hazard a guess that overall, my political compass is waaaaaaay south of yours

 

Since the WW2, Scotland has got the government it voted for on 13 occassions, the South East of Englandshire got the government it voted for 11 times, its what happens in a democracy.  Lets not forget a democracy that the people of Scotland have voted to remain  part of every 4 years over the last 80 (since the Nats stood candidates)  I have never got the government I voted for and I just have to accept that.

 

Not sure what a southfacing political compass means?     Just to add I welcome debate but saw little during the campaign, and I know lots of No voters who were reluctant to air their views becase they were set about by evangelical Nats who simply cannot accept other people have different loyalties......I work with an Italian who offered this insight from an individual who moved here last summer and had no feelings either way..... Independence cannot succeed with only half the population, that is a recipe for disaster. An insightful observation IMO, and one those still waving the Yes banners would do well to heed, the debate has moved on, it is now about inequality, jobs, deficit, taxation....... real politics!

[Honest Saints Fan]

Inverness voted yes btw! Over 60%.

[Wendy Saints]

As a matter of interest did your source say which Party was thinking about political suicide?

Present government, but worry not it won't make any difference which party is in unless it is the Independence Party as they have come out in support of a universal state pension.

I read an academic article a few years back. It was written by a Canadian economist, who had done in depth analysis on pension provision in the Uk and had calculated that an increase of a quarter of one percent on income tax was all that was required to deliver pension promises.

I personally think governments don't want the responsibility of the payment of pensions, so peddle the myth that they are unsustainable when in fact they are not.

[Smarmy Arab]

Inverness voted yes btw! Over 60%.

 

Maybe so, but Highland region certainly did not!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides/results

[Honest Saints Fan]

The capital of the Highlands is so god damn Yes. We still have our Yes shop going strong and looking forward to making danny Alexander redundant. Shame my house is in Old Charlie boys seat.

[Smarmy Arab]

Exactly..however voters were peddled a lie that a yes vote would mean an oil price slump! Anyone with half a brain knew that was a load of hokum

 

I have never heard anyone (of relevance) claim 'a yes vote would mean an oil price slump'......never.  What people did claim was that oil is a volitile resource and if your economy is dependent (I'd say 20% of GDP = dependent) on oil,  then the varying price makes planning and economic strategy problematic.  All Swinney's projections were with oil at $113/b, over the past decade the number of MONTHS that oil has traded at this price can be counted on one hand.  The price of oil has now dipped to $50/b...do the math as they say!  Swinney can at least make us all an omlette with the egg all over his puss!

Edited January 5, 2015 by Smarmy Arab

[Smarmy Arab]

The capital of the Highlands is so god damn Yes. We still have our Yes shop going strong and looking forward to making danny Alexander redundant. Shame my house is in Old Charlie boys seat.

I though you lived in Glasgow HSF?  Have you moved?

[Honest Saints Fan]

I did. Moved to Dingwall 2 years ago. Lucky me... Actually it's a really nice place to live. The highlands is only second behind perthshire.