Yes Or Naw?

[Balhousie Blue 1884]

Think you`ve a short memory Brogan. You say things went well after promotion in early 80`s but what about 2 successive relegations right after that then very nearly going out of business? Took us a long time to get to where we are now. Mr. Bell was correct, we didn`t have the correct infrastructure then!!

[Brogan]

Think you`ve a short memory Brogan. You say things went well after promotion in early 80`s but what about 2 successive relegations right after that then very nearly going out of business? Took us a long time to get to where we are now. Mr. Bell was correct, we didn`t have the correct infrastructure then!!

 

I remember even further back to the late 70s when only a last-game win against QOS saved us from the bottom league too. There are always ups and downs, and I'm not saying things are clear-cut. My point was more that a lack of ambition, as well as being deflating, doesn't rule out risks - we were in deep financial trouble long before our double relegation. But it surely precludes great things.

 

And you're right - only by putting a different infrastructure in place did we succeed.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Brogan

[Havana Saint]

Thanks for that Saint Sid

[south inch]

Brogan nice to hear that your dad enjoyed the cup final as did I.  It sounds as though he is of the same vintage as me - I've just clocked up 68 years following Saints.  The story about Saints not being able to afford top tier status was rife in the 1950s and to some extent in the 1960s.  My old doctor, Dr Mathieson, who served on the Board for years told me in was nonsense.  The last few years are the best I can remember for Saints but there was a thread on here recently strongly critical of the current Chairman and suggesting we need a change.  Also our core support is still around 3,000 despite everything.

 

In short you can draw analogies with Saints to support voting No as well as Yes.  Remember when we all thought John Connelly was the answer to our prayers.  A nicer man you could not hope to meet but he couldn't deliver.

[ejksjfc]

Sorry I cant quote but that was one of the best away days ever (post 127)

[Pat McGroin]

This will be the only chance to vote /There will not be another one in the next ten years.

You say Salmond etc are politicians & you don`t trust them so why trust anything the No team say ?.

That is not true Cagey. The SNP have said That if it's a close call there will be another vote within the next 5-10 years. If not they won't seek another for 10 years+ so there's a new generation of voters.

[sixties saintee]

Debate on BBC news now  : Scotland decides from Scumdee majority is Party Political bickering

[Cagey]

That is not true Cagey. The SNP have said That if it's a close call there will be another vote within the next 5-10 years. If not they won't seek another for 10 years+ so there's a new generation of voters.

Its not SNPs decision. We are ruled from Westminster. If we turn down this chance to decide our own destiny there will never be another one.

Anyway ten years will be too late as the UK government will have syphoned off all the oil by then.

[Saintdunc]

Its not SNPs decision. We are ruled from Westminster. If we turn down this chance to decide our own destiny there will never be another one.

Anyway ten years will be too late as the UK government will have syphoned off all the oil by then.

Syphoned it off where Cagey, or to where? Just so I know.

[saint sid]

American take on the referendum

[Cagey]

Syphoned it off where Cagey, or to where? Just so I know.

£33 billion to shore up Rail track. Hundreds of billions to build a railway to Manchester to save 20 mins journey.Billions to be spent at Heathrow & billions spent on the south east of England.

Wish that the north of England could join us.

[john.w]

That is not true Cagey. The SNP have said That if it's a close call there will be another vote within the next 5-10 years. If not they won't seek another for 10 years+ so there's a new generation of voters.

The Québécois did something similar over here when the first referendum didnea work out for them

[Jings]

£33 billion to shore up Rail track. Hundreds of billions to build a railway to Manchester to save 20 mins journey.Billions to be spent at Heathrow & billions spent on the south east of England.

Wish that the north of England could join us.

What makes you think that our wonderful Scottish parliamentarians will spend our money any more wisely.  Our track record with the Parliament building, Edinburgh trams & ludicrously expensive new Forth crossing, hardly fill me with confidence.

I wonder what Salmond's legacy project will be?  Hadrian's Wall Mk2.

[Jings]

If it wasn't for there being an SNP, we wouldn't have devolution in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. Hate the SNP if you want, but if not for them we wouldn't have FREE prescriptions, no more road bridge tolls, FREE University education, 7 YEAR council tax freeze in Scotland, all of which are helping people in Scotland during this time of Westminster austerity.

Why should people who can afford it, get free prescriptions?  I'm not rich by any means, but I'm well prepared to pay for mine, without further burdening the tax payer.  Ridiculous decision.

I also don't agree that all University education should be totally free.  If young Hyacinth Bouquet wants to study the History of Art, I sure as sh*t don't want to contribute towards it.

[HelsinkiSaintee]

What makes you think that our wonderful Scottish parliamentarians will spend our money any more wisely.  Our track record with the Parliament building, Edinburgh trams & ludicrously expensive new Forth crossing, hardly fill me with confidence.

I wonder what Salmond's legacy project will be?  Hadrian's Wall Mk2.

 

Parliament was a bit of a disaster.  Edinburgh trams was Edinburgh City Council so nothing to do with Parliament as I understand.  The trams are interesting as they were fully funded by Scottish taxpayer but the London equivalent will cost Scottish taxpayer more than the trams in Edinburgh.  Forth crossing, is it ludicrously expensive?  Compared to what?  I understood that it was a necessary project due to structural issues with the existing road bridge?

 

Not sure why you reference Salmond, Scottish Parliament was built when Labour were the biggest party in government with Lib Dems.  Salmond / SNP position was against the Edinburgh trams.  Forth crossing may be controversial but surely necessary?

 

Why would Salmond want a Hadrian's Wall Mk2?  The first one was built by the Romans and it's Westminster who say we will be foreign and would have border controls, so surely more likely Westminster would like a new wall

[Pat McGroin]

Its not SNPs decision. We are ruled from Westminster. If we turn down this chance to decide our own destiny there will never be another one.

Anyway ten years will be too late as the UK government will have syphoned off all the oil by then.

That is simply not true. It's nothing to do with Westminster. The electorate decides. If we vote in a party up here offering a referendum on independence as a main policy it will happen again a generation down the line. I'm not rumour moungering. I heard a political expert say so during a live debate on Radio Scotland.

If there is a close call resulting in a no vote we will 100% have another referendum in a couple of years, if it's more than a 10 point swing the SNP won't seek another one for more than 10 years as there would be no point in asking the same people again.

[HelsinkiSaintee]

Why should people who can afford it, get free prescriptions? 

I'm not rich by any means, but I'm well prepared to pay for mine, without further burdening the tax payer.  Ridiculous decision.

 

I suppose that's just a principle of not taxing people for ill health.  Isn't it the same in Northern Ireland and Wales?

 

I also don't agree that all University education should be totally free.  If young Hyacinth Bouquet wants to study the History of Art, I sure as sh*t don't want to contribute towards it.

 

What should/shouldn't be free?

[HelsinkiSaintee]

That is simply not true. It's nothing to do with Westminster. The electorate decides. If we vote in a party up here offering a referendum on independence as a main policy it will happen again a generation down the line. I'm not rumour moungering. I heard a political expert say so during a live debate on Radio Scotland.

If there is a close call resulting in a no vote we will 100% have another referendum in a couple of years, if it's more than a 10 point swing the SNP won't seek another one for more than 10 years as there would be no point in asking the same people again.

 

Of course Westminster could just abolish the Scottish Parliament

[Brogan]

Why should people who can afford it, get free prescriptions?  I'm not rich by any means, but I'm well prepared to pay for mine, without further burdening the tax payer.  Ridiculous decision.

I also don't agree that all University education should be totally free.  If young Hyacinth Bouquet wants to study the History of Art, I sure as sh*t don't want to contribute towards it.

 

I'm surprised you're vexed by this. What do free prescriptions cost - £1 billion was the figure I'd heard? But deduct from that the cost of policing a scheme as it is in England, where it's free up to 16-18 or over 60, those with HC2 certificates, the pregnant, those with medical exemptions etc.

 

And even ignoring this, the figure is dwarfed by spending on things we don't need - whether that's Trident or our contributions to London's Crossrail, or HS2. Do you complain about that?

 

But what is more unconscionable is the way the Westminster government has increased the relative tax burden on the low-paid by increasing the tax everyone pays on goods (VAT), while reducing the burden for the well off.  I'm sure you'll have pointed this out earlier in the thread; I just haven't noticed it.

[HertsSaintee]

An interesting article in The Guardian here  Food for thought for the No camp...

[LondonSuperJ]

Not really. I got three sentences in before picking up on his first glaring error and it's largely downhill from there.

[HertsSaintee]

Not really. I got three sentences in before picking up on his first glaring error and it's largely downhill from there.

 

Ok...first paragraph which contains the article's third sentence is a hypothetical scenario.  For reference, I used New Zealand as an example of the already independent nation.  Then I used an independent Scotland and reached the same conclusion.  I then imagined myself as still living in England and applied the same, and guess what - same conclusion.  Which part of it do you disagree with or think is a "glaring error"?

[LondonSuperJ]

The United Kingdom is not "another nation" from Scotland, Scotland is a constituent part of the union of the United Kingdom. Such a misconception is central to the rest of his article. A union is not a capitulation of sovereignty.

[Brogan]

Thinking about my last post I should have ordered it more logically, because there are two points I should have been clearer about in my reply to Jings, who on the face of it makes a valid point.

 

The first is the principle of the NHS being free to all at point of need. If we start means testing prescriptions, I can’t see much of a leap to operations and GP visits falling under exactly the same approach.

 

The second point is one of practicality. At a guess more than 2/3rds of prescriptions in England are free. (I don’t know this for a fact, but I think it’s a fairly conservative estimate). Extrapolating that to Scotland, we’d probably save around £300 million if we charged for prescriptions, minus extra admin and policing costs, which could be substantial.

 

But Scottish taxpayers are paying MANY TIMES that as part of their contribution to build a tunnel under London and a high-speed train link to connect English cities, neither of which offer ANY benefit to those outside that area. At the same time we’re forced to scrape together our own money – no UK Government help - to pay for dualling the A9, a road that continues to claim countless lives.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Brogan

[HelsinkiSaintee]

The United Kingdom is not "another nation" from Scotland, Scotland is a constituent part of the union of the United Kingdom. Such a misconception is central to the rest of his article. A union is not a capitulation of sovereignty.

 

My highlighting.  If you feel like it, please do expand on that, it doesn't make any sense to me  I can't read the article as I won't read the Guardian.