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As soon as it's 'leaked' in the papers you know it's on the way. The government tested the water by means testing the Employment Support Allowance paid to the sick & disabled, if they are fair game then the state pension had no chance staying universal?!? A NO vote not looking quite so cute now?!

 

Don't think it will change many opinions. After all, 55% of us swallowed the lie that pensions were in danger in an independent Scotland without actually investigating the truth. And they never questioned the massive pension imbalance that means that - partly because of economic imbalance imposed by Westminster - many of our less well off in Scotland contribute to pensions they're never likely to benefit from. Men born in the poorest parts of Scotland can expect to live almost 10 years less than the average English male. [Source]

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Means tested state pension...be afraid be very afraid!?!

Simple fact is the UK pension pot is the biggest ponzi the world has ever seen.

 

If i wanted to start a fund, paid for only by future investors, and never producing the returns id been promised when i invested, The FSA/FCA would close me down tomorrow.

 

I believe when the original pension was outlined the average mortality age was around 50ish, so to make payout at 65 would mean "real" old age. Staistically the payout age these days would be around 100. How many people would be paying their NI if they werent going to get a payout until then?

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Means tested state pension...be afraid be very afraid!?!

OAPs are the only ones that vote.

 

That is why only pensioners have been getting inflation based increases over the years of austerity. They will not touch the free bus passes or the winter payment for that reason as well.

 

As southinch says,political suicide.

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Don't think it will change many opinions. After all, 55% of us swallowed the lie that pensions were in danger in an independent Scotland without actually investigating the truth. And they never questioned the massive pension imbalance that means that - partly because of economic imbalance imposed by Westminster - many of our less well off in Scotland contribute to pensions they're never likely to benefit from. Men born in the poorest parts of Scotland can expect to live almost 10 years less than the average English male. [Source]

I think you are fundamentally misunderstaning the No vote Brogs.  This is quite a good article on how Yessers simply fail to read the situation acurately, indeed they would rather plough on to try to gain another 5% then they will be free!  :roll:  I'm afraid it is a bit more complex than that and it would be a big mistake, in the medium term for the Yes campaign not to at least consider why they failed to gain the support of 4 out of 10 Scots.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/gerry-hassan-indyref-12-hard-truths-1-3627532

 

 

The stats you quote are averages, never the best angle to take.  The gap between middle class Scots and working class Weegies is greater than the gap between the Scots and the English.  Glasgow is the 'sick man' of Europe, Glasgow is both cultrually toxic and actually toxic, its health outcomes, even allowing for areas of multiple depravation are staggering in comparison to what in every other way are comparable cities.  My own theory is that Glasgow was built very quickly in the 19th/20th centuries on an area of toxic sludge, former coal fields, coking plants, and other heavy industrial sites, but no one wants to even begin to discuss that, easier just to blame alcohol, fags, deep fried mars bars, or westminster.

Edited by Smarmy Arab

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Guest The Great Paddy Buckley

"My own theory is that Glasgow was built very quickly in the 19th/20th centuries on an area of toxic sludge, former coal fields, coking plants, and other heavy industrial sites, but no one wants to even begin to discuss that, easier just to blame alcohol, fags, deep fried mars bars, or Westminster."

 

That is really interesting Smarmy. Although I think you play down the relevance of the latter factors I would be interested to see some research into the former.

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"My own theory is that Glasgow was built very quickly in the 19th/20th centuries on an area of toxic sludge, former coal fields, coking plants, and other heavy industrial sites, but no one wants to even begin to discuss that, easier just to blame alcohol, fags, deep fried mars bars, or Westminster."

 

I think the same could be said of any city that has had massive population growth in a post industrial era. Just look at the boom cities of SE Asia since the 50s, they too suffer from the horrendous pollution and severe social issues we see in Weegie.

Whilst a town is growing and becoming more prosperous, little thought is ever given to those at the very bottom. Not unsimilar to todays UK politicians who are obsessed with numeric growth. If the economy doesnt grow, ie last years number must be greater than the last - or we must be doing something wrong. Nothing about whether people are actually individually better.  Nothing about a fair economy. Just the bottom line, more money (somehow) = everyone wealthy

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"My own theory is that Glasgow was built very quickly in the 19th/20th centuries on an area of toxic sludge, former coal fields, coking plants, and other heavy industrial sites, but no one wants to even begin to discuss that, easier just to blame alcohol, fags, deep fried mars bars, or Westminster."

 

That is really interesting Smarmy. Although I think you play down the relevance of the latter factors I would be interested to see some research into the former.

Paddy I did not mean to play down the cultural factors associated with depravation merely to point out that they are present in other comparable cities.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27309446

I remember reading several articles over the past 20 years about the m74 extension and the compulsory purchase orders forced through by the government across the south side of the city. In case after case the land was purchased at knockdown prices due to the toxicity reports. I am sceptical about the care and attention developers have about the environmental consequences of putting a motorway on stilts through some of the poorest neighbourhoods in Western Europe to service a shopping emporium at Braehead. The 'land deals' for the commonwealth games in and around the east end followed almost the same pattern, the land was cheap because it's poisonous.......it would appear digging the garden in Glasgow could turn up all manner of heavy metals and other nasty pollutants. There are many cities across Scotland and the UK who would never even contemplate any of this, but as always the industrial working class and their descendent generations appear expendable. The maps of greater Glasgow in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries show how the entire region into Lanarkshire and Ayrshire, was the industrial beating heart of the British empire providing iron and coal to fire the global industrial revolution. I'll wager the modern compensation culture would make claims too great to consider for a population subject to a relentless discourse of derision....much easier to accuse them of eating too much crap, smoking, Buckfast etc, with more than a hint of right wing moral indignation!

Agree totally with your point regarding Asia, in the more recent past Canuck, Billions of people moved off the land into industrial dystopia to ensure the planet has an inexhaustible supply of plastic toys to throw away and mobile phones to sit in kitchen cupboards unused, capitalism only works with a huge dose of socialism and environmentalism built in.

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I think you are fundamentally misunderstaning the No vote Brogs.  

 

I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding what I'm saying, which is this: life expectancy in Scotland is significantly below the UK average - indeed it has one of the lowest life expectancies in Europe. Whatever reasons you paint for that are irrelevant.

 

The fact is that Scots, because they have shorter lives, effectively subsidise the rest of the UK's pensioners.

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I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding what I'm saying, which is this: life expectancy in Scotland is significantly below the UK average - indeed it has one of the lowest life expectancies in Europe. Whatever reasons you paint for that are irrelevant.

 

The fact is that Scots, because they have shorter lives, effectively subsidise the rest of the UK's pensioners.

 

 

You wrote 'After all, 55% of us swallowed the lie that pensions were in danger in an independent Scotland without actually investigating the truth.'  There in is the misunderstaning of the NO vote.  On the other point you make, I would argue class is a far more fruitful and acurate method of interpeting life chances than mere nationality.

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I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding what I'm saying, which is this: life expectancy in Scotland is significantly below the UK average - indeed it has one of the lowest life expectancies in Europe. Whatever reasons you paint for that are irrelevant.

 

The fact is that Scots, because they have shorter lives, effectively subsidise the rest of the UK's pensioners.

 

Using your own figures, the low LE id directly linked to ill health. That would logiclly mean that people in scotland were using up a proportionally greater amount of money on health care within their shorter lives. The money pit that that is the NHS hardly needs any more unneeded expenses

Simple fact is in scotland on the whole we pretty much have a terrible diet, and an inheirant lack of outside excercise compared to somewhere like SE england. Of course weather and topography play their part.

Given the stunning world class local food we have here, its quite depressing that people would feed their kids turkey twizzlers.

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Guest The Great Paddy Buckley

Smarmy Arab, on 14 Dec 2014 - 11:47, said:

Smarmy Arab, on 14 Dec 2014 - 11:47, said:

Paddy I did not mean to play down the cultural factors associated with depravation merely to point out that they are present in other comparable cities.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27309446

I remember reading several articles over the past 20 years about the m74 extension and the compulsory purchase orders forced through by the government across the south side of the city. In case after case the land was purchased at knockdown prices due to the toxicity reports. I am sceptical about the care and attention developers have about the environmental consequences of putting a motorway on stilts through some of the poorest neighbourhoods in Western Europe to service a shopping emporium at Braehead. The 'land deals' for the commonwealth games in and around the east end followed almost the same pattern, the land was cheap because it's poisonous.......it would appear digging the garden in Glasgow could turn up all manner of heavy metals and other nasty pollutants. There are many cities across Scotland and the UK who would never even contemplate any of this, but as always the industrial working class and their descendent generations appear expendable. The maps of greater Glasgow in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries show how the entire region into Lanarkshire and Ayrshire, was the industrial beating heart of the British empire providing iron and coal to fire the global industrial revolution. I'll wager the modern compensation culture would make claims too great to consider for a population subject to a relentless discourse of derision....much easier to accuse them of eating too much crap, smoking, Buckfast etc, with more than a hint of right wing moral indignation!

Agree totally with your point regarding Asia, in the more recent past Canuck, Billions of people moved off the land into industrial dystopia to ensure the planet has an inexhaustible supply of plastic toys to throw away and mobile phones to sit in kitchen cupboards unused, capitalism only works with a huge dose of socialism and environmentalism built in.

This fascinates me. I am going to read around it. If correct this is and/or has been a time-bomb.

Edited by The Great Paddy Buckley

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Using your own figures, the low LE id directly linked to ill health. That would logiclly mean that people in scotland were using up a proportionally greater amount of money on health care within their shorter lives. The money pit that that is the NHS hardly needs any more unneeded expenses

Simple fact is in scotland on the whole we pretty much have a terrible diet, and an inheirant lack of outside excercise compared to somewhere like SE england. Of course weather and topography play their part.

 

I'm surprised you're pursuing this argument, which seems to be that it's ok for Scots to subsidise the rest of the UK's pension because they fall ill more and die early. A fine example of pooling and sharing resources in our great union.

 

(In any case, no argument that Scots use up a proportionally greater amount of money on health care, but why ignore the two big causes? Rather than 'topography' or 'weather', accept the fact that we drink more than the rest of the UK and have the highest rates of smoking. And then at least acknowledge the fact that these unhealthy lifestyles at least are offset by the fact that the Treasury rakes in £3 from every single bottle of wine sold and a 20-a-day smoker who died early - and they do - could have contributed around £100,000 to the Government in discretionary tax, ignoring any other tax or pension contributions, before pegging it.)

Edited by Brogan

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I'm surprised you're pursuing this argument, which seems to be that it's ok for Scots to subsidise the rest of the UK's pension because they fall ill more and die early. A fine example of pooling and sharing resources in our great union.

 

(In any case, no argument that Scots use up a proportionally greater amount of money on health care, but why ignore the two big causes? Rather than 'topography' or 'weather', accept the fact that we drink more than the rest of the UK and have the highest rates of smoking. And then at least acknowledge the fact that these unhealthy lifestyles at least are offset by the fact that the Treasury rakes in £3 from every single bottle of wine sold and a 20-a-day smoker who died early - and they do - could have contributed around £100,000 to the Government in discretionary tax, ignoring any other tax or pension contributions, before pegging it.)

 

Im sure the Welsh/Yorkshire mining communites with their historically short life expectancies,  think scotland are subsidising their pensions!

They have a similar socioeconomic breakdown and suffer exactly the same problems as some regions of scotland.

Check the stats between the coalfields of wales and those of say fife, or the shipyards of tynesides and those of clydeside. Theres little difference.

Given the political status quo, the poor shall always poor.

Of course the poorest contribute the most, HTF to do think the richest stay in power?!?

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Will be some interesting times in the Scottish parliament ahead. Wee nicola may have met her match in Kezia Dugdale. Labour shouldve appointed her rather than Murphy imo, not that I'm a labour supporter

Nicola will wipe the floor with her when the going gets tough. Should be interesting.

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How typical of the Rob Roys, hurl personal abuse at KD or anyone else who rejects the partition of these islands, because the dared to point out the monumental stupidity of the crayon scrawled white paper......still anything other than actually talk politics or economics, not the strong point of the SNP. For once I agree with s4l, it will be interesting to see how Sturgeon copes with JM and KD without Salmond as her minder, it's one thing to take head shots at Johann Lamont from behind Salmond it's quite another to have to carry the can for the mess the SNP are making. Governments usually get a few years where they can blame their predecessors for everything, the SNP have now had 7. Now people will expect them to display some culpability, we are moving out of the period where the default 'blame Westminster' will cut it.....unless of course you happen to be an Indy zealot who cannot accept the fact they LOST!

http://ronaldmacdonaldblog.tumblr.com

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KD gave a list of things the Scottish Government should deal with, all of which are controlled by Westminster. She's not very good. If you don't have control of how much your budget is you have to spend money on  what you think is important

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How typical of the Rob Roys, hurl personal abuse at KD or anyone else who rejects the partition of these islands

I'll hurl abuse at anyone regardless of party if they are nothing more than a charlatan. Dugdale is a serial liar, and not a very good one, who is nothing more than a SLAB apparatchik. If it's a toss-up between the interests of the people and the interests of the Labour Party, she'll tow the party line every time. There's nothing worse than a fake socialist, but you'd never notice them in the Labour Party nowadays, because they're all fake... with the exception of Dennis Skinner.

The unionists seem to have difficulty in getting their heads round the fact that it wasn't just Nationalists on the Yes side, something that your "Rob Roy's" comment proves. Let's get this quite clear, the SNP were only the vehicle to get the referendum on the statute book. I have only independence and scrapping Trident in common with the Nationalists, but I can say without doubt, neo-liberal SLAB have sod all in common with me. As for the ConDems...

Edited by Denzil

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How typical of the Rob Roys, hurl personal abuse at KD or anyone else who rejects the partition of these islands, because the dared to point out the monumental stupidity of the crayon scrawled white paper......still anything other than actually talk politics or economics, not the strong point of the SNP. For once I agree with s4l, it will be interesting to see how Sturgeon copes with JM and KD without Salmond as her minder, it's one thing to take head shots at Johann Lamont from behind Salmond it's quite another to have to carry the can for the mess the SNP are making. Governments usually get a few years where they can blame their predecessors for everything, the SNP have now had 7. Now people will expect them to display some culpability, we are moving out of the period where the default 'blame Westminster' will cut it.....unless of course you happen to be an Indy zealot who cannot accept the fact they LOST!

http://ronaldmacdonaldblog.tumblr.com

Please list the mess as I thought unemployment was down and more people in work which must be a good thing for those willing to work. Remember the Scottish government can only do so much until we get independence.

 

NHS & Education not great but not as bad as down south due to greater demands .

Edited by Cagey

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I'll hurl abuse at anyone regardless of party if they are nothing more than a charlatan. Dugdale is a serial liar, and not a very good one, who is nothing more than a SLAB apparatchik. If it's a toss-up between the interests of the people and the interests of the Labour Party, she'll tow the party line every time. There's nothing worse than a fake socialist, but you'd never notice them in the Labour Party nowadays, because they're all fake... with the exception of Dennis Skinner.

The unionists seem to have difficulty in getting their heads round the fact that it wasn't just Nationalists on the Yes side, something that your "Rob Roy's" comment proves. Let's get this quite clear, the SNP were only the vehicle to get the referendum on the statute book. I have only independence and scrapping Trident in common with the Nationalists, but I can say without doubt, neo-liberal SLAB have sod all in common with me. As for the ConDems...

I have met Kezia Dugdale and found her an honest, hard working and capable woman, I know nothing of her 'serial' dishonesty.  Perhaps you could enlighten us? 

 

I have always considered myself a 'socialist', but the older I get the less sure I am as to what that means.  The Labour Party has never been a socialist party, although it has always had socialist elements within it. Being a party apparatchik is hardly an insult, all parties have them.  I'm sure I have been over the constituent parts of the Yes campaign with you in the past but imo and the most significant grouping is nationalist, certainly not socialist.  Bottom line here is if you want a Tory government best plan is to vote SNP,........go to bed with Nicola, wake up with Cameron, its that simple.  The SNP are a neoliberal party, profoundly so, their largest single backer is arch neo liberal vandal Brian Soutar (with reactionary social views to boot), their flagship economic policy was a reduction in Corp Tax gifting billions to big business, how was this going to reduce foodbanks?    The idea that Yes was a campaign for social justice is risible it was a nationalist movement, and the indy zealots within would happly enter decades of austerity so long as we got 'independence'......

 

 

Please list the mess as I thought unemployment was down and more people in work which must be a good thing for those willing to work. Remember the Scottish government can only do so much until we get independence.

 

NHS & Education not great but not as bad as down south due to greater demands .

 

Health is a car crash at the moment, target driven nonsense, education has been an embarrassment for the SNP as they have failed to meet any of the targets set, and ruthlessly butchered Further Education whilst protecting HE for the middle classes.  Police Scotland and their increasing centralisation has not gone well (ask a policeman)  They have since they were elected reduced Government income through a variety of measures, most notably the council tax freeze which saves the high salaried a fortune but boots the shyte out of the poor and vulnerable, who depend on the services and jobs provided by local authorities.  They whimper about Westminster policies but take zero responsibility for the near £70 billion they have to spend, indeed they have reduced income for the government at every turn.  They have had the power to vary income tax by 3p in the £, they have chosen not to, because they are in the pocket of Soutar.......the time has come for the Scottish Goverment to govern, it is no longer tenable to simply behave as an permanent opposition, no longer can they blame previous administrations or Westminister for everything, and stop bleating about the constitution, they lost the constitutional argument, and they lost decisively.  Its time the people of Scotland called these people out on what they have done and are doing, rather than allow them to whinge about what the can't do, whatever the reasons. 

 

I note an absence of any reference to the halving of oil revenue and the disasterous consequences for an iScotland......egg all over their face, but never mind.... hey!  look a flag........our flag........freedom!.......F***** chancers!

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the results of scotland voting will not make much difference to the results of next years election. Here a link, theres lots of tables around on the net to demonstrate it but i can't work out how to put the pic in here.

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/11/why-scottish-independence-wouldnt-mean-permanent-majority-tories

 

i think we've only had any effect a couple of times since 1945. i think what you should say vote for Nicola........wake up with whoever wins England and Wales.

 

Nice of you to mention oil prices, really bad that folk are going to lose their jobs.

 

 

Council tax may well save the rich as well but i don't think i can afford it to rise so its good for me and others who don't get much of a wage rise.

 

Ask you one question you mention the power to vary income tax. if your in charge of Scotland what would you do with it. Leave it as it is or go into an election saying you'd put it up? I don't think i'd vote for you if you said you'd put it up

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I have met Kezia Dugdale and found her an honest, hard working and capable woman, I know nothing of her 'serial' dishonesty.  Perhaps you could enlighten us? 

 

I have always considered myself a 'socialist', but the older I get the less sure I am as to what that means.  The Labour Party has never been a socialist party, although it has always had socialist elements within it. Being a party apparatchik is hardly an insult, all parties have them.  I'm sure I have been over the constituent parts of the Yes campaign with you in the past but imo and the most significant grouping is nationalist, certainly not socialist.  Bottom line here is if you want a Tory government best plan is to vote SNP,........go to bed with Nicola, wake up with Cameron, its that simple.  The SNP are a neoliberal party, profoundly so, their largest single backer is arch neo liberal vandal Brian Soutar (with reactionary social views to boot), their flagship economic policy was a reduction in Corp Tax gifting billions to big business, how was this going to reduce foodbanks?    The idea that Yes was a campaign for social justice is risible it was a nationalist movement, and the indy zealots within would happly enter decades of austerity so long as we got 'independence'......

 

Good for you, I'm so pleased for you. Are you Del Rashid? Given that you repeat parrot-fashion that SLAB bulshit about "a vote for the SNP will let the Tories in" when that is downright nonsense as rammsteinally has correctly already pointed out, giving you examples of Dugdale's fantasies she passes off as fact (she's very good at it, I'll give you that) would be a waste of my time. If you're desperate to find examples, Google it. IIRC Derek Bateman also had a few belters in his blog. It's not entirely all her fault though. If what passes for a journalist in this country actually challenged some of the nonsense that comes out of her and her ilks mouthes instead of going along with it, they'd quickly shut up. Then again, the MSM is the State's mouthpiece and and the State is inherently malevolent, requiring the general ignorance of the population to function. As such, the "elites" aren't going to be challenged any time soon.

 

No, you've never discussed the constituent parts of the Yes campaign with me, but as I was a member of the said campaign I think I'm probably in a better place to judge its make-up. I would however say, that the SNP at times were more of a hinderance than a help, but as the party of Government, we had to roll with it. They were, as I've already said, only the vehicle so flame away at them if you wish as it's no skin off my nose. What was clear though was that the Yes votes certainly in Dundee and I'd hazard a guess in Glasgow too were achieved in no small way by all the hard work put in by RIC, not the SNP. The SNP were far too complacent, which perhaps gives creedence to the suposition that this was "testing the water" and they weren't 100% behind the campaign. True, the economic circumstances were not right - we're at the wrong end of the recession - but if Gideon continues to **** up the economy, those factors will come into play again. What is needed though is the Scottish middle classes to feel the pinch. They're not at the moment and that was telling.

 

Soutar is a particularly vile character and my views on him are on here in other threads. You can search for them if you feel the need. I'm also not a spokesman for  the SNP, so if you want an answer to how a reduction of Corp Tax will reduce foodbanks, you'll have to contact your local MP or MSP. I can only give you an opinion, and that is that while I understand the rationale that in theory reducing Corp Tax would give corporations additional money to be used to create new jobs. However, how many would say thanks very much and trouser the loot, or produce loads of 0 hour jobs which would require more subsidy through benefits, and with it increased, not decreased, need for foodbanks?

 

At the end of the day, you can keep your SLAB lies and I'll keep campaigning for an independent Scottish Republic. :P

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