Saints Shamed

[MySpazz]

They still owe me for my Ballboy shifts in the 80s

[541ntees]

is this what im seriously paying my license fee for? this documentary could be a long running series that out does corrie , if their going to highlight companies that dont pay the living wage.

im just guessing but these workers prob get to see the majority of a match involving the best team in the country for free so you can add that 22quid to their wage.

[ancientsaint]

They still owe me for my Ballboy shifts in the 80s

 

 

Yer cheques in the post

[Cagerf]

I wonder if someone dug deeply enough into the BBC you might find sub contractors on minimum wage. Cleaners security spring to mind. The real disgrace in football are the big premiership teams in England where some players earn more in a day than workers on minimum wage. But the Beeb would not want to upset the all powerful Premier league.

[Paul N Shark]

I wonder if someone dug deeply enough into the BBC you might find sub contractors on minimum wage. Cleaners security spring to mind. The real disgrace in football are the big premiership teams in England where some players earn more in a day than workers on minimum wage. But the Beeb would not want to upset the all powerful Premier league.

Good post, the BBC give that crisp munching d*** Lineker a fortune every year with our license fee money.

[nickyg]

Agree with a lot of what has already been raised here. I do not have information on what Saints highest earners get but I would imagine that the average salary per annum is considerably less than some English Premier league players earn in a week. Bet the wages earned by hospitality for English clubs is more or less on a par with SPFL. There were plenty of holes in BBC programme not least not pressing the chef re how many hours he worked to take home £86 a week and no mention of zero hours contracts. Very lazy journalism and short on fact.

[babychunder]

Extracted from the BBC web article...

 

"Only 10 of the 50 biggest employers in Scotland said they pay all staff working for them the living wage, according to a BBC investigation.

 

.....

• ABERDEEN Rate starts at £6.50 although there is some progression. Below Living Wage
• CELTIC The BBC was told Celtic employ their own staff for hospitality and pay them £6.70 an hour. Team member visited a Celtic FC club store on Argyle Street and discovered from an assistant manager and two store associates that they are paid just above minimum wage at £6.70 an hour. Below Living Wage
• DUNDEE UNITED The BBC was told wages are "not far off minimum wage." Below Living Wage
• HAMILTON Representative said work was at minimum wage (he guessed that at £6.51). Below Living Wage
• MOTHERWELL Bar work sometimes available. The wage is between £6.58 and £7.00 - offered to take a CV. Below Living Wage
• PARTICK THISTLE Partick Thistle confirmed bar work is minimum wage - happy to take a CV. Below Living Wage
• ST JOHNSTONE Confirmed there are vacancies at minimum wage, paid hourly. Below Living Wage"

 

There's no shame in it.

[Kevin James Is On Stilts]

Extracted from the BBC web article...

 

"Only 10 of the 50 biggest employers in Scotland said they pay all staff working for them the living wage, according to a BBC investigation.

 

.....

• ABERDEEN Rate starts at £6.50 although there is some progression. Below Living Wage
• CELTIC The BBC was told Celtic employ their own staff for hospitality and pay them £6.70 an hour. Team member visited a Celtic FC club store on Argyle Street and discovered from an assistant manager and two store associates that they are paid just above minimum wage at £6.70 an hour. Below Living Wage
• DUNDEE UNITED The BBC was told wages are "not far off minimum wage." Below Living Wage
• HAMILTON Representative said work was at minimum wage (he guessed that at £6.51). Below Living Wage
• MOTHERWELL Bar work sometimes available. The wage is between £6.58 and £7.00 - offered to take a CV. Below Living Wage
• PARTICK THISTLE Partick Thistle confirmed bar work is minimum wage - happy to take a CV. Below Living Wage
• ST JOHNSTONE Confirmed there are vacancies at minimum wage, paid hourly. Below Living Wage"

 

There's no shame in it.

 

It's down to opinions really, and whether or not you are on the side that passionately feel that everybody should be earning a living wage regardless of age/contract/circumstances.

For those that agree with it, there is shame in a football club only paying minimum wage because, to somebody reading those articles without much knowledge of the Scottish game, football clubs will no doubt be seen as a large fairly rich business and should be able to afford much more than that.

For those that disagree, there's no shame at all because Saints are legally doing absolutely nothing wrong.

The issue is that those that agree with the living wage will always shout the loudest because they want to see change, it's always the same, and until the it becomes enforced by law they will use all tools at their disposal to put pressure on numerous high profile companies to raise their pay scales. In order to get their way then the campaigners are going to hit companies where it hurts - their reputation. Once again, like everything else in the modern world, it's all about PR.

There's may have been no real substance to the 'investigation' carried out by the BBC, and it may well have been lazy journalism (I haven't watched it yet, admittedly), but the fact is that the show aired, the subsequent articles were written, and Saints were mentioned in a negative light, which doesn't really look great from the outside for a self-promoted 'family' club.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Kevin James Is On Stilts

[SlickDT]

"Saints shame" is an ott heading. As has been pointed out a lot of these jobs are "secondary" jobs that boost a persons earnings or give then extra pocket money.

Whilst the living wage is a great aim for a company to have- for small businesses like saints it would likely mean a reduction in staff.

Sweat shops in China making things such as Clothes and the like are shameful- but I'm pretty sure you'll have bought plenty clothes that come from there HSF!? Companies avoiding millions of tax such as Starbucks are shameful but millions use them everyday.

[PerthSeany]

Why are football clubs been signalled out? If you're going to point the finger at them then what about shops that don't? The bloody local councils definitely don't pay living wage anyway. P&K council love a good zero hour or 12 hour contract to avoid paying the staff proper wages in the summer holidays. The list can go on. I don't see why football clubs are being singled out.

Maybe the bbc should focus more on these massive companies recently been exposed for paying little or zero income tax etc in the uk. If they did pay the less fortunate wouldnt have to pay as much tax? Just a thought.

Edited May 19, 2015 by PerthSeany

[Cagerf]

Another big business target should be the way companies avoid paying Tax. Couple of years ago I payed more tax than my company did even though they posted pre tax profits of many millions of pounds.

[Kevin James Is On Stilts]

Why are football clubs been signalled out? If you're going to point the finger at them then what about shops that don't? The bloody local councils definitely don't pay living wage anyway. P&K council love a good zero hour or 12 hour contract to avoid paying the staff proper wages in the summer holidays. The list can go on. I don't see why football clubs are being singled out.

Maybe the bbc should focus more on these massive companies recently been exposed for paying little or zero income tax etc in the uk. If they did pay the less fortunate wouldnt have to pay as much tax? Just a thought.

 

Generally speaking, people don't like their council. They don't choose to give the council their tax money, they're forced to. They know that there are dodgy dealings going on behind closed doors and that corners are cut, so hearing that they don't pay well or treat employees well won't be any great surprise.

But people feel attachments to football clubs. They do choose to give them their money, and they do choose to pay over the odds to support them. By singling football clubs out in a football-mad country, its a way of saying to the man on the street, "See that club that you give all your hard-earned cash to? They don't even pay their staff enough to live on". Target their punters and they might put a few off, hit the business where it hurts and you might just pressure it into giving in to your demands.

[chips]

There's no shame in it.

Thats my take on it as stated in previous posts. Im failing to see why this issue is even meriting a fecking thread. Plenty businesses much much bigger than Saints have low earners employed by them. As I said before, I'll only be concerned once employees of Saints complain of unpaid wages and contractors threatening court action.

[jhq]

Generally speaking, people don't like their council. They don't choose to give the council their tax money, they're forced to. They know that there are dodgy dealings going on behind closed doors and that corners are cut, so hearing that they don't pay well or treat employees well won't be any great surprise.

But people feel attachments to football clubs. They do choose to give them their money, and they do choose to pay over the odds to support them. By singling football clubs out in a football-mad country, its a way of saying to the man on the street, "See that club that you give all your hard-earned cash to? They don't even pay their staff enough to live on". Target their punters and they might put a few off, hit the business where it hurts and you might just pressure it into giving in to your demands.

You honestly believe that any genuine fans will stop supporting their club because of this? Not a chance.

[ex-montrosesaintee]

I would also note that over the last couple of years, Saints have taken the step of promoting or creating specific permanent roles for either part time or voluntary staff, like Fiona and Ross for example.  There certainly seems to be an approach that rewards those who show initiative and contribute to the club.  I would say that taking a minimum wage job and having a genuine opportunity to prove yourself and progress to a more secure and better paid job as a reward is worth a lot more than paying everyone a couple of quid more and treating them like crap.

[babychunder]

As SlickDT and PerthSeany said earlier, there are multinationals who avoid tax by means which, albeit legal, are questionable. Let me call a few out.

 

Amazon is putting lots of book and music shops out of business. They only paid £4.2m tax on £4,300m takings last year. When you buy something from them it is booked to their subsidiary in Luxembourg which is a low tax jurisdiction.

 

Starbucks is another blot on our High Streets, killing distinctive local coffee shops off and charging £3 for a brew. They paid £8.6m on £3,000m of sales. Their device is to pay royalties to overseas entities in low tax countries to make the UK look like its losing money.

 

Google's take of £3,300m in the UK resulted in them paying £20.4m of taxes. Like Starbucks, they use subsidiaries in Bermuda and Ireland to book all their profits.

 

I could go on, the list includes Apple, ebay, Facebook - all of these companies are paying less than 1% in tax.

 

Besides their scale and purchasing muscle, which in itself is enough to make them formidable competitors, they practise aggressive tax avoidance out of sheer greed. Many pay the minimum wage, use zero hours contracts, and sweatshops in Asia. Once they kill off all of our local competition, you will pay through the nose when they are the only option left.

 

The net result is a loss of tax revenues of about £3,000m every year. In round money that's about six new hospitals every year. Scotland raised just under £6,000m of corporation tax in total last year.

 

For me this behaviour is shameful. Saints and a few other fitba teams paying minimum wage isn't comparable.

[Paul N Shark]

Extracted from the BBC web article...

 

"Only 10 of the 50 biggest employers in Scotland said they pay all staff working for them the living wage, according to a BBC investigation.

 

.....

• ABERDEEN Rate starts at £6.50 although there is some progression. Below Living Wage
• CELTIC The BBC was told Celtic employ their own staff for hospitality and pay them £6.70 an hour. Team member visited a Celtic FC club store on Argyle Street and discovered from an assistant manager and two store associates that they are paid just above minimum wage at £6.70 an hour. Below Living Wage
• DUNDEE UNITED The BBC was told wages are "not far off minimum wage." Below Living Wage
• HAMILTON Representative said work was at minimum wage (he guessed that at £6.51). Below Living Wage
• MOTHERWELL Bar work sometimes available. The wage is between £6.58 and £7.00 - offered to take a CV. Below Living Wage
• PARTICK THISTLE Partick Thistle confirmed bar work is minimum wage - happy to take a CV. Below Living Wage
• ST JOHNSTONE Confirmed there are vacancies at minimum wage, paid hourly. Below Living Wage"

 

There's no shame in it.

The BBC, overpaying parasites and hangers on for decades.

[Kilgour]

Hearts get a wee pat for declaring about the "living wage" and while they have sold out every match they can afford it.....however....there are still lots of staff out of work and owed plenty from the previous regime. THAT HSF is shame not the fact that a few of our "casual staff" are being paid the industry norm .

[Kevin James Is On Stilts]

You honestly believe that any genuine fans will stop supporting their club because of this? Not a chance.

 

I don't believe that's what I said. Somebody asked why they would target football clubs and I gave an opinion as to why they might.

Genuine fans, of course nothing would stop us supporting our club. But it's the money from casual fans that Saints desperately need in order to grow.

I'm not taking sides or arguing the point either way, but whether you like it or not there are people in this world that live their lives by tabloid headlines and will treat reports like these as gospel.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Kevin James Is On Stilts

[Paul N Shark]

One of the main reasons for low wages in the UK is we've been flooded with cheap labour from abroad who will work for considerably less than the indigenous population.

The minimum wage is pretty attractive if your an unskilled or even skilled worker from the poorer European States and Indian sub continent.

[Indicator]

Oh dear P N S - I fear the thread is about to go OT with the ref to indigenous population.

 

But anyway regards the list of clubs. Was the entire football league researched by the BBC or are these just the clubs that dignified the researcher with a response.

 

I mean, for example, I don't suppose they went anywhere near Govan as they don't ever ask any searching questions of that club. Oh I forgot isn't BBC Scotland heavily staffed by those of that particular culture?

[Paul N Shark]

Oh dear P N S - I fear the thread is about to go OT with the ref to indigenous population.

 

But anyway regards the list of clubs. Was the entire football league researched by the BBC or are these just the clubs that dignified the researcher with a response.

 

I mean, for example, I don't suppose they went anywhere near Govan as they don't ever ask any searching questions of that club. Oh I forgot isn't BBC Scotland heavily staffed by those of that particular culture?

No, BBC Scotland is now run by Left wing RC,s going by the majority of Rangers supporters views.

Most folk on the minimum wage won't pay tax I take it based on a 39 hour week.

[Oldmuirton]

I thought this was a football website. Not a political soapbox.

[Vieri]

Talk about hyperbole. 'Shameful', 'embarrassed' - give yourself a shake ffs.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Vieri

[chips]

I think we can put this thread to rest as I fail to see where Saints have been "shamed"