Is The Current Saints Team The Best Ever ?


Crossest Man In Scotland
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I think our inability to defend set plays  was the worst aspect of todays game...

 

Agreed, but if we took half the chances we had today ..........??

When Beastie lashed that shot in from outside the box I was on my feet only to see it bounce of the post, had that went in, 1-2 different game. We had our chances, diddnae take them. Hate to say it but celtc were worth the win. (the bastards)

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But they DID go downhill rapidly. From 3rd to 8th to 11th in Willie Ormond's last two seasons is an even greater decline than we experienced under Sandy Clark (3rd-5th-10th.) Ormond was a superb manager, but unless something goes spectacularly wrong in the next five months, Tommy Wright will end the season as our most successful manager of all time. No ifs, no buts.

 

 

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I only read the report attributed to you, Dont think they rapidly went downhill though.

I'd agree.  The team went downhill after Ormond left and Jackie Stewart took over, which was unfortunately when I first remember getting taken along by me Dad.  I remember Freddie Aitken, Jim Pearson, Henry Hall, Alex Rennie, Bennie Rooney playing for Saints.  Alas John Connolly escapes my memory although I'm assured I was first taken in 1970 when JC was still playing.  Stewart was responsible for dismantling Ormond's team and not replacing them with good enough players.  He allowed great players like Hall and Rennie to leave when they still had plenty to offer.

 

Incidentally Freddie was my first Saints hero and I was delighted to meet him at the signing.

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No they r not. The standard of scottish football has dramatically dropped.

Probably true if you look purely at footballing ability, but at the same time fitness levels have dramatically increased and I'm not convinced a team from the 60s/70s would be able to keep up with today's side. 

There was an interview with Henry Hall in the BH fanzine ages ago and he was asked this question (albeit about the Saints team of 2000-ish) - he pretty much thought that while the side he played in had more flair, modern teams are far fitter and much better organised.

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But they DID go downhill rapidly. From 3rd to 8th to 11th in Willie Ormond's last two seasons is an even greater decline than we experienced under Sandy Clark (3rd-5th-10th.) Ormond was a superb manager, but unless something goes spectacularly wrong in the next five months, Tommy Wright will end the season as our most successful manager of all time. No ifs, no buts.

Interesting that if you look at those finishing league positions under Ormond, in three seasons out of six we'd actually have been either relegated or in a relegation play-off if the league was in its current structure. In only two of those six seasons did we make the equivalent of today's "top 6". If we were to finish 14th, 13th or 11th in the country nowadays, would people look back on those as significant successes? I think that just goes to show how well the team is doing at the moment.

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It was two opinions, which happened to be wrong. The Ormond team did not have a "very brief period of doing well"; they were a great team who did well throughout an era (Ormond's tenure) where the standards were higher, and they had an exceptional year when they finished third in the league. The other assertion that they "rapidly went downhill" is similarly incorrect; after Willie left in '73 some of the magic left with him but we stayed in the First Division / Premier for a further three seasons until relegation in the summer of '76.

The tone of that piece is negative about two of the greatest sides we've had in the past and it doesn't come across as the work of a passionate supporter. If you weren't around to watch the Ormond team then your opinion about it carries no weight with me at all.

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It was two opinions, which happened to be wrong. The Ormond team did not have a "very brief period of doing well"; they were a great team who did well throughout an era (Ormond's tenure) where the standards were higher, and they had an exceptional year when they finished third in the league. The other assertion that they "rapidly went downhill" is similarly incorrect; after Willie left in '73 some of the magic left with him but we stayed in the First Division / Premier for a further three seasons until relegation in the summer of '76.

The tone of that piece is negative about two of the greatest sides we've had in the past and it doesn't come across as the work of a passionate supporter. If you weren't around to watch the Ormond team then your opinion about it carries no weight with me at all.

Cup Final and third place is the brief period of doing well. 8th then 11th in the next two seasons is the downhill slide. You might not agree with my interpretation of those league placings and words like "brief" and "rapidly" are open to interpretation, but it doesn't make it wrong. In the end it's a forum post, not a piece written for a newspaper.

Apologies for not being "passionate" enough for you, though. Next time I'll type with my caps lock turned on and maybe that will help.

 

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As I said, you can't make any kind of informed judgement by looking at historical league placings. I was at a great many games during that era (almost all) watching home and away in sunshine, rain and snow and in my view that team was better than 99 and today. Our run in Europe then is unlikely to be surpassed now or any time soon.

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As I said, you can't make any kind of informed judgement by looking at historical league placings. I was at a great many games during that era (almost all) watching home and away in sunshine, rain and snow and in my view that team was better than 99 and today. Our run in Europe then is unlikely to be surpassed now or any time soon.

I'm fine with that and if you read my original post, rather than the thing copied and pasted and then heavily edited in a newspaper, you'll see that my point didn't dispute that: my point was that the current run of success has been long-lasting and spanned lots of personnel, as opposed to the other two successful eras which were relatively short-lived. I was also completely open about the fact that I didnt see the 60s/70s team play, and for that very reason I specifically haven't passed any judgement on that team's performances other than to compare their league placings to current league placings.

None of us have seen every era of Saints team, so if you want to be incredibly arsey about it you could argue that none of us are in a position to comment on any of this, and we could just have an empty thread. But hey, it's only a discussion on a forum - we don't need to get difficult about it.

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Comparing footballers from different era's in terms of ability is an extremely difficult thing to do. Different formations, different playing styles, different responsibilities. 

On achievements it's not up for debate that this team have been more successful than Ormond's side ever was but you're never going to get a consensus on ability. 

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My main memory of the sixties team was how inconsistent they were except for the second half of the season they finished 3rd. Played some great football though. Can't really compare with the modern era. They were doubtless more skillful but not half as fit or organised as the current side. Wish we could have a modern version of Hall and Connolly though.

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Anybody who makes a judgement on something based on what they've read and without actually being present to witness, is a fool. That goes for everything including religion.

I did see the Ormond Saints play on occasion, when in the area, as well as on the tele box. I'm quite old. But I'm perfectly happy for Blueheaven to have an opinion on them, based on what he's learned. It might carry less weight, but he's still entitled to it, isnt he? As for religion, does that mean that unless you witnessed the virgin birth, you can't either believe in it or think it's nonsense? That would make the entire population agnostic. Which is a great start!

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Anybody who makes a judgement on something based on what they've read and without actually being present to witness, is a fool. That goes for everything including religion.

So all historians are fools? And you have absolutely no view on anything at all from the news, or from history, that you haven't personally been present to witness? That's quite an unusual position to take.

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The fact is apart from finishing third and getting to the League Cup final Willie Ormonds time as manager in terms of success was pretty mediocre. That does not in any way detract from or make the memories any less enjoyable. WO had a fantastic team and instilled in me (personally) a lifelong love of this great wee club something which I have now thankfully passed on to my now grown up children. It could have all ended up so differently if my folks hadn't moved to Perth when I was 3 (my late father was  a Dons fan all his life and did live to see the Cup Winners cup win). The last game he ever went to was a certain 5-0 game.

As I have said the Ormond side were fantastic with several great players but essentially unsuccessful the present side are however successfull in winning the cup and it could be argued more sustained league success as well. The team of the late 1990's although great to watch were essentially 1 season wonders. 

I notice nobody has mentioned Tommy Muirheads team of the 1930's, where would they finish nowadays?

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A point that hasn't been made yet is that two Saints managers from the 60's early 70's were promoted (as it used to be seen as!) to national team manager (with somewhat contrasting fortunes). Tommy is being talked about as a future Norn Irn manager, but he's not a shoe-in (although, for the avoidance of doubt, he is a God).

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