EU referendum

[Honest Saints Fan]

Another referendum. How do you see it going? 

[Jiangsu Sainty]

2 separate questions there. How I see it going and how I'll vote are entirely different.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Jiangsu Sainty
spelling

[Jiangsu Sainty]

In terms of predictions at least it is a relief the Tory party is split. They've shown recently that their media allies are capable of manipulating the British masses into voting directly against their own self interest, and there is no doubt that in this referendum it will be incredibly easy for the powerful to get the public to vote based purely off emotion and fear.

The question is, as the Tory party splits, on which side of the split will those that control the message fed out to the wider public fall? Just now the early trends are that it is the OUT side, but that could just be because it is the line that is more compatible with the general mechanics of fear-mongering, demagoguery and downward-hating. Yet to see a comprehensive for leaving that doesn't partially make use of one or all of those tools. 

[Honest Saints Fan]

The poll is how you'll vote and I just wondered how most see it going. 

Think it will pan similar to Scottish referendum. Scaremongering and threats on both side but with In eventually winning. 

Me, I'll be voting In.

[canuck_saint]

i think this is totally differnt to the scottish referendum. and whithout doubt there will be scaremongering both sides.

from what i can see the only people who want to leave the eu are the Farage supporting bnp red top reading little englanders. that said there are enough of them in the SE to sway some tories. whether or not you agree politicaly, Out of the EU means another  scottish referendum and  ultimately  the break up of the uk.

[sixties saintee]

Now who do I believe Cameron and his cronies, or cronies of cameron

[nips]

Farage is voting "out", so that's good enough for me.  "In" it is!

[HertsAgain]

Taking into account the cash we get back directly out of it, we end up giving £33m EVERY DAY to the EU - it works out to £55m per day gross before grants and rebates.  For what?  A load of red tape and regulation that have decimated our industry?  Ask fishermen in Peterhead what they think of the EU!

The EU places a huge amount of emphasis on the Euro.  However since it's inception, it's led to consistent low economic growth for the countries which use it. The UK has had higher growth during that time, and they even had the temerity to come to us and ask for more cash about 18 months ago because our economy was doing (relatively) well, even though we're not in the single currency!

Security?  What can we say about that? Well, our net immigration is out of control because of the open border policy, and at the moment we have a crazy German woman opening up the external European borders to all and sundry which is simply storing up massive social problems for generations to come.  IMO, it only ends one way - civil wars throughout the continent.

All this cr4p about "we have to be in it to influence reform" is garbage as well.  The UK opposes EU diktats all the time and consistently gets voted down - so our "influence" is zilch anyway.  The EU doesn't take any notice until countries say "no".  Look at the ratification vote in Ireland a few years ago.  The EU didn't get the result they wanted so they directed that the vote was done again - and would have been until the desired result was achieved.

Plus, would you invest in a business who's accounts haven't been signed off FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS?  No, neither would I.

Taking this country out of the EU, an undemocratic, unaccountable organisation which bears absolutely no resemblance to the one which we joined, is the single most important thing we can do for ourselves.  The UK is a global trading giant, that will do just fine if it leaves the utter shambles that is the EU behind.

 

[Edstar101]

Yes or No then Herts?

[Jiangsu Sainty]

Taking into account the cash we get back directly out of it, we end up giving £33m EVERY DAY to the EU - it works out to £55m per day gross before grants and rebates.  For what?  A load of red tape and regulation that have decimated our industry?  Ask fishermen in Peterhead what they think of the EU!

The EU places a huge amount of emphasis on the Euro.  However since it's inception, it's led to consistent low economic growth for the countries which use it. The UK has had higher growth during that time, and they even had the temerity to come to us and ask for more cash about 18 months ago because our economy was doing (relatively) well, even though we're not in the single currency!

Security?  What can we say about that? Well, our net immigration is out of control because of the open border policy, and at the moment we have a crazy German woman opening up the external European borders to all and sundry which is simply storing up massive social problems for generations to come.  IMO, it only ends one way - civil wars throughout the continent.

All this cr4p about "we have to be in it to influence reform" is garbage as well.  The UK opposes EU diktats all the time and consistently gets voted down - so our "influence" is zilch anyway.  The EU doesn't take any notice until countries say "no".  Look at the ratification vote in Ireland a few years ago.  The EU didn't get the result they wanted so they directed that the vote was done again - and would have been until the desired result was achieved.

Plus, would you invest in a business who's accounts haven't been signed off FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS?  No, neither would I.

Taking this country out of the EU, an undemocratic, unaccountable organisation which bears absolutely no resemblance to the one which we joined, is the single most important thing we can do for ourselves.  The UK is a global trading giant, that will do just fine if it leaves the utter shambles that is the EU behind.

 

Genuinely shocked there are people who think some of these things outside of Little England. One or two valid discussion points and a lot of hyperbolic falsehoods

Edit - maybe more disappointed than shocked - I think David Cameron over-estimated the British public when he gambled on declaring an EU referendum in order to win an election thinking he'd never lose it. People obviously are as thick as Cameron treats them the rest of the time. (Last line directed at british public and not HertsAgain alone)

Edited February 22, 2016 by Jiangsu Sainty

[Jiangsu Sainty]

Apologies - mis-spoke in my rushed attempt to edit but can't re-edit it. The last line about people being thick is directed at british public and not HertsAgain 'at all' is what it should say. I thoroughly and utterly disagree with his views but at least they are articulate and manage to keep the xenophobia to a mere undertone

[Cagey]

Taking into acsling bag the cash we get back directly out of it, we end up giving £33m EVERY DAY to the EU - it works out to £55m per day gross before grants and rebates.  For what?  A load of red tape and regulation that have decimated our industry?  Ask fishermen in Peterhead what they think of the EU!

The EU places a huge amount of emphasis on the Euro.  However since it's inception, it's led to consistent low economic growth for the countries which use it. The UK has had higher growth during that time, and they even had the temerity to come to us and ask for more cash about 18 months ago because our economy was doing (relatively) well, even though we're not in the single currency!

Security?  What can we say about that? Well, our net immigration is out of control because of the open border policy, and at the moment we have a crazy German woman opening up the external European borders to all and sundry which is simply storing up massive social problems for generations to come.  IMO, it only ends one way - civil wars throughout the continent.

All this cr4p about "we have to be in it to influence reform" is garbage as well.  The UK opposes EU diktats all the time and consistently gets voted down - so our "influence" is zilch anyway.  The EU doesn't take any notice until countries say "no".  Look at the ratification vote in Ireland a few years ago.  The EU didn't get the result they wanted so they directed that the vote was done again - and would have been until the desired result was achieved.

Plus, would you invest in a business who's accounts haven't been signed off FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS?  No, neither would I.

Taking this country out of the EU, an undemocratic, unaccountable organisation which bears absolutely no resemblance to the one which we joined, is the single most important thing we can do for ourselves.  The UK is a global trading giant, that will do just fine if it leaves the utter shambles that is the EU behind.

 

100% spot on 

[Cagey]

Apologies - mis-spoke in my rushed attempt to edit but can't re-edit it. The last line about people being thick is directed at british public and not HertsAgain 'at all' is what it should say. I thoroughly and utterly disagree with his views but at least they are articulate and manage to keep the xenophobia to a mere undertone

I would say it was aimed at anyone that did not hold your views.

[Jiangsu Sainty]

Its aimed at anyone who buys into the Tory fear-mongering and xenophobia yes. If someone were to want out of the EU for even mainly other reasons then no, it wouldn't be aimed at them.

[nips]

Genuinely shocked there are people who think some of these things outside of Little England. One or two valid discussion points and a lot of hyperbolic falsehoods

Edit - maybe more disappointed than shocked - I think David Cameron over-estimated the British public when he gambled on declaring an EU referendum in order to win an election thinking he'd never lose it. People obviously are as thick as Cameron treats them the rest of the time. (Last line directed at british public and not HertsAgain alone)

Genuine question Jiangsu as I must admit I'm not really familiar with the arguments for and against - but what did Herts say that you think are hyperbolic falsehoods and why?

[Gussie]

Aside from the voting, I recall a woman Tory MP saying recently that "Farage has the look of someone has had a finger stuck up his bum and is enjoying it"!

Ah well..... best get the jokes in now as we are going to have four months of the hokey cokey..referendum

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm for staying in!

[Jiangsu Sainty]

The £33 million quote (a UKIP favourite) is arguably true in strict financial terms, but its about the same as saying you give £30 to St. Johnstone every Saturday and then complaining about it. You pay that yes, and then you sit and watch the game that you paid for. You could cut off that spending as UKIP want sure, but then you'd lose the accompanying benefits which are unquantifiable. It's not like we pay it out for nothing.

He referred to Merkel as a crazy German lady. I don't agree with everything she does, but calling her crazy is clear hyperbole, and the reference to her nationality and gender sounds like it could have come straight out of Farage's mouth - why disparage a professional person who has achieved far more than HertsAgain ever will in this way? You can dislike her policies or performance, but to belittle her as a crazy lady is unpleasant at least in the sense it hints at an underlying sexist/xenophobic resentment or bias there.

He also claims that she is opening up the EUs external borders to all and sundry. Firstly, as German PM she has no control over the external borders of the EU, but the prevalent idea that Germany alone runs the EU is a myth. If we even were to imagine that they run it then they'd be better qualified than anyone else - **** knows Germany is a far more pleasant place than Britain which we have destroyed long before migrants came to help out, so the thought of living in a country in which Tory governments had the total control people seem to think leaving the EU will give us is horrific.

On the same theme, the idea that the borders are open to all and sundry is an insulting exaggeration. I fully agree that many politicians have been too slow to act on the migrant issue. I won't pretend to know what the ideal answer is but it is clear that too many politicians have been hamstrung by the ideological bind they find themselves in - with previously comfortable liberal viewpoints being challenged by the influx of fairly destitute immigration but reluctant to take any action for fear of finding themselves amongst the racist scum on the other side. The migrants issue is too complex to answer and has been handled badly so far in my opinion, but it is a hyperbolic falsehood that the borders are open to anyone or that Merkel has either sought or facilitated this. 
More importantly, it is a total fallacy to think that leaving the EU will have much of an impact on this for non-EU migrants. They will still flow through the rest of the EU and if we were to be out of the EU then, engaging in a little hyberbolic imagining of my own, I can't imagine France will have any remaining incentive to prevent them coming here - any migrant leaving the continent for Britain will no longer be the EUs problem but rather ours - will EU countries bordering the Channel really fight to keep them? Further, it not as though Royal Navy patrol boats loaded with machine guns will suddenly spring into action as many proponents of the migration argument seem to imagine - we will still be bound by not only decency but also other international conventions stemming from the UN such as the UNCHR - the convention on refugees, or at the very least morally bound by them. Hard to imagine strict legal ramifications from breaches of this but certainly an untold amount of international bad will comparable only to Trumps' America. As for 'civil wars throughout the continent' - insane hyperbole.

A related topic is the idea of sovereignty and freedom of decision making - UK will still be part of NATO and could in theory be legally bound to accompany e.g. Turkey in war with Russia. To complain about being bound to EU laws on straight bananas or fishing stock (designed to prevent over-fishing - how shameful) on the grounds of sovereignty and not have problems with the fact you can still be dragged into war with Russia against your will is an insane double standard.

The complaints the Out crowd about EU migration are far more legitimate in my opinion - but Cameron has already achieved a size-able concession in this regard with the changes to child allowance being the same as country of origin. I'd like to think it is plausible to achieve further steps in the direction in future. It wouldn't even have to just be Britain getting special treatment in this regard but it could be extended to any country not part of the 'ever closer union'. The countries that are the most entrenched in that concept are those who, like Britain, would benefit from reduction in support payments to EU migrants and it may well find support - Remember HertsAgain thinks Merkel runs the EU, and Germany would be better placed than anyone to benefit from this as long as it didn't threaten the closer union with France and a select group of countries - so I'm sure she can just adopt it instantly, right?

HertsAgain also says the budget hasn't been signed off in 20 years. Another absolute falsehood propagated by the Tory media. There are always lengthy debates about the EU budget which are mostly caused by MEPs the likes of Farage and his national equivalents whose sole electoral mandate is to disrupt and prevent the EU from taken effective action or being able to pass votes through the EU Parliament. This doesn't mean it isn't 'signed off' in the accountability sense of the word. Here's a link to the 2013 budget audit in which every penny was accounted for http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/AB_2013/AB_2013_EN.pdf although they did say 0.2% was at risk of being subject to fraud (lower than most national governments).

My personal view is that the EU is a fantastic idea which has lost its way slightly. It is hard to put forward this opinion without at least opening yourself up as sounding slightly racist, but I think the idea of the UK, France, Germany, Scandinavia and a few others being bound in union was fantastic. This was then followed by some expansion, which was then followed by slightly more tenuous expansion, and then more tenuous expansion, and so on. Even these expansions to include post-soviet or other developing states were done for absolutely the right ideas, not only a sense of European unity but also that the best way to help develop/improve these countries include them. Unfortunately geopolitical events beyond the EUs control like the financial crash and the middle east have rendered the situation less palatable now - giving rise to the complaints behind the referendum, but I think an EU which had kept itself to just the 'core' European countries would be currently flourishing by comparison.
However, leaving isn't the answer - staying in and helping the EU adapt to this changing world is the best way.

 

Edited February 22, 2016 by Jiangsu Sainty

[babychunder]

The usual style of "debate" on this website if you don't agree with the other person....

a. dismiss their sources as Right / Left Wing propaganda that they have been foolish enough to swallow.

b. deploy ad hominen insults designed to belittle the other person and make them shut up.

c. declare the other person a racist / sexist / warmonger / bigot etc.

d. profess profound disbelief that the other person should hold such a ridiculous / misguided / false* view

e. post lots of irrelevant twaddle on the thread and get it shut down.

* delete as appropriate

[babychunder]

Meant to add - Given the arguments I've heard so far I'll probably vote to stay "in" - but I fear the "out" camp may just edge it.

[jazzsaint]

My Dad has always said that the weather has become worse since we joined the common market.

 

 

Therefore I'm out!

 

 

[Jiangsu Sainty]

Probably the most defensible out opinion put forward so far

[slf]

better together ? de ja vu

[Jiangsu Sainty]

There is a depressing irony about the fact that a decent number of those who voted to stay in the UK will vote to leave the EU.

It's almost like that's what certain newspapers want you to vote

[babychunder]

There can be no "fact" regarding an event that has yet to take place.

[Jiangsu Sainty]

It can be a fact that I believe it to be likely 

I'm surprised you left 'try and discredit people you don't like with pointless pedantry' off your little list of usual debating methods.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Jiangsu Sainty