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Shibbydoo

Dear Tommy

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I thought Fisher had turned the corner recently but last night, as SaintSam says, he constantly disappeared into the centre of the park behind the central defenders leaving the right wing wide open for Partick to rampage down there. I don't know if it was one of Tommys peculiar tactics or Fisher hiding but it was frustrating as hell and certainly contributed to their goals. 

I have to disagree. I thought he was constantly being run ragged because we had no midfield. He has a lot to offer but we need to smarten up our set up and get our midfield guys taking a game.

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I generally find myself in agreement with you, but I think you're incredibly harsh on Fisher who has been one of our best performers recently (not necessarily an impressive achievement, of course).

I thought it was an exciting signing at the time. The Sportsound commentators were raving about him last season during a Celtic league match. Their fans were proclaiming him to be one of their best young prospects. I thought it would be an excellent coup. In truth, he maybe hasn't impressed quite as much as I'd hoped. I can't see him having a future at Celtic Park. However, I believe he is certainly good enough for Saints. And he's only 21.

I'm not being harsh in the context of last nights game. He was hiding. I have praised him in other matches when he's deserved it and I'm in no way blaming him for last night. It's just that he epitomises everything that's wrong with this team when he does what he did last night. Maybe his age is a mitigating factor but my observations are a fair reflection of what happened last night. He was hiding between the central defenders when their winger had the ball!

Edited by SaintSam1884

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We're not going to sack Tommy because that's not the way we do things. He needs time, money and luck plus the most important ingredient our support to get out of this bad run.

Agree some of selections and subs have appeared odd but he has more information than we do about who's fit, who's up for it and he says what the tactics are for each game and decides who's best to suit them.

it will only take a win or two to put us in Euro slot assuming the tic win the cup too. Not time to panic or make a knee jerk reaction IMO

 

10 points from 39 is acceptable is it? I don't think people moaning and shouting that things are not good enough from 2 wins in 3 months is something thats knee jerk. We should be lambasting our players. Evidently its a cake walk fannying about in training to constantly commit the same errors week on week.

The way we do things is to demand progression and tightening purse strings year on year.

He's been manager since June 2013, how much time?

Boxing day we were 1 point behind Hearts with 31 points playing 19 games.

Now we are 28 matches and only 36 points?!?! 9 matches and 5 points!

Yes we are still top 6 , just, but as for Europe your having a laugh. We can't keep a clean sheet and fail to score. A couple of wins is all we have had in 3 months let alone a 3/4 games.Our aim should be to stay in the division at the moment. Yes it's doom and gloom but its realistic. Everyone else is winning and we are loosing.

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Last night was absolutely atrocious. Never have I felt like walking out of a game after 12 minutes but had their free kick gone in shortly after they went 2-0 up, I would've got out of my seat and went home. Why should I sit there in near freezing conditions when the players don't care? The manager just sat down in front of the dug out for parts of the first half. He may be human and he may be feeling defeated but he is paid to lead this team and make decisions. A good coach would've made changes to that situation straight away last night. He seems to still believe these players will get us out of this mess but doesn't seem to realise it's not the same players that have been so reliable for him the last few years. No Millar, MacKay, Wright or Easton on the pitch last night. The other stalwarts are not leaders. Anderson doesn't talk, Mannus doesn't talk, Davidson always keeps his level up but doesn't drag others up with him. There is NO leader on the pitch. For all MacKay seems to be nearing the end of his career, he is a leader and we miss him. 

Darnell Fisher jogging about the pitch all night, being repeatedly turned with ease, letting two midfielders do his job for him. At times he was literally hiding in the centre of defence while said midfielders went out wide to pick up his man for him but only after the crowd started groaning and booing after their wide man was allowed to travel into the box with no Saints player anywhere near him for the umpteenth time. This sums up - for me - how this team has turned to shit. Tommy Wright is responsible for fielding guys like that. He's responsible for Fishers very presence at this club and it's a complete smack in the face that Frazer Wright was the kind of player forced to leave to accommodate it. 

I hate listening to the manager saying there wasn't much between the teams and we played well. We did NOT play well and there was a gulf between the teams. We got ourselves back into it but that turned to shit when he took Wotherspoon off and brought on an untested kid who was poor. Last season TW was some sort of tactical master whose subs won us points. The last couple of months his subs have been so poor. They lost us the game last Tuesday night and again last night. Thomson was a rotten decision and Sutton was beyond dreadful when he came on. 

This is a huge period of transition for us and I'm not advocating sacking TW. We need to avoid the drop and then the summer will be huge. I would appreciate a greater degree of honesty and empathy from him and an end to the crap of how we are "playing well enough" because we are not. I don't want to listen to the players talking about top six. I'm a glass half full person but that is delusion and a blatant ignorance of the huge problems we are facing. Stop ignoring it. If we finish top six it's because other teams are somehow worse than us and that is no achievement when you're giving your paying customers crap like last night. 

Still raging actually. Feel like that mental Kilmarnock fan. Saints are destroying my happiness at the moment. 

 

Great post.  And I actually said to my mate when Thistle got that free-kick that if it went in I was going home.

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Everyone else is winning and we are loosing.

Not really. Look at league wins in 2016 so far...

Celtic - 6

Aberdeen - 5

Hearts - 4

Ross County, Dundee, Partick, Dundee United - 3

Inverness, Motherwell, Kilmarnock - 2

St Johnstone, Hamilton - 1

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I'm not being harsh in the context of last nights game. He was hiding. I have praised him in other matches when he's deserved it and I'm in no way blaming him for last night. It's just that he epitomises everything that's wrong with this team when he does what he did last night. Maybe his age is a mitigating factor but my observations are a fair reflection of what happened last night. He was hiding between the central defenders when their winger had the ball!

I agree that you're not being harsh in the context of last night's game (although at least he provided one moment of quality). But these two sentences seem to be more of a general statement about Fisher's ability rather than a sole appraisal of last night's performance. ''Tommy Wright is responsible for fielding guys like that. He's responsible for Fishers very presence at this club and it's a complete smack in the face that Frazer Wright was the kind of player forced to leave to accommodate it''.

 

 

 

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Fisher, like all Celtic youngsters, is hugely hindered by the fact he barely plays for them and when he does its for a youth side that strolls 90% of their matches. His loan with us is the first real game time he's had. I said on P&B a few months ago that he's clearly got some ability and reckon, long-term, he'd be a decent permanent signing, but I get the impression sometimes he's in a comfort zone of sorts due to the fact hes only on loan, and when he does make a mistake he's happy to hide so he doesnt make another which'll be reported back to Celtic.

Played 17 times for their first team in two seasons and is still only 21, so appears to get more of a chance their, than our youngsters do at perth.

He is raw but could be a good player if coached right, wasn't worse than a lot of our experienced guys last night, and speaking about hiding that could easily apply to quite a few last night, but seems to be a easy target at the moment, imagine being a young defender looking to make a forward pass for Saints when the movement is non exisistant  and then getting a torrent of abuse, will really help your confidence 

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Played 17 times for their first team in two seasons and is still only 21, so appears to get more of a chance their, than our youngsters do at perth.

He is raw but could be a good player if coached right, wasn't worse than a lot of our experienced guys last night, and speaking about hiding that could easily apply to quite a few last night, but seems to be a easy target at the moment, imagine being a young defender looking to make a forward pass for Saints when the movement is non exisistant  and then getting a torrent of abuse, will really help your confidence 

17 games is not a lot of games for a 21 year old. Hes the same age as Kane, who has 71 games under his belt at club level, including 42 for us. Hes only played 15 more senior games than Thomson, who folk are more than willing to excuse as he's inexperienced. Hes less than a year older than Thomson aswell. They should be considered similarly in terms of previous experience, and, to be honest, Fisher looks the better player.

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Agree about the abuse he gets tbh, there was someone behind me in the East who was spewing it out every time he came near him, balls at the other side of the pitch and he was screaming at Fisher to stop being such a lazy b****** and get involved. Probably the same guy who blamed Fisher when he was overlapping Thomson, who had ignored him to run inside towards opposition players, who then lost the ball 20 yards from our own goal and Thistle moved into the space Fisher was in

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Nice try, but the whole truth sometimes hurts. The fact is that several stars need to be in alignment for any club our size to win something. How the draws in cup competitions pan out, and the fundamental talent of the squad at the time are the obvious ones. But whether or not bigger teams, who might ordinarily be expected to reach the latter stages of cup competitions are going through hard times is certainly going to be an advantage. The hard fact whether you like it or not is that our success has in part been possible because of the absence of Rangers, Hearts and Hibs at some point from the top league. ICT have done exactly the same thing, so we're probably the two Scottish clubs to have taken advantage of the situation. There's no doubt it was a fine achievement but to say it was nothing to do with the relative slump of other clubs is nonsense.

Why were Hearts and Hibs in the lower leagues? Because they weren't good enough. To suggest a Hibernian side that we have finished above year upon year on an equal footing (being very kind considering their budget dwarfs ours) being relegated contributed to our success in any way is completely without foundation. 

Basically what you're saying is football is based solely on budget and size of club and any smaller team being successful doesn't count because the bigger teams should finish above them. Mental. 

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I agree that you're not being harsh in the context of last night's game (although at least he provided one moment of quality). But these two sentences seem to be more of a general statement about Fisher's ability rather than a sole appraisal of last night's performance. ''Tommy Wright is responsible for fielding guys like that. He's responsible for Fishers very presence at this club and it's a complete smack in the face that Frazer Wright was the kind of player forced to leave to accommodate it''.

 

 

 

I stand by my comments but you will see I have made the allowance for his age. Having said that I have never seen any player hide the way he was doing last night. The Frazer Wright reference is more of an issue with the manager, in an appropriate thread. 

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Why were Hearts and Hibs in the lower leagues? Because they weren't good enough. To suggest a Hibernian side that we have finished above year upon year on an equal footing (being very kind considering their budget dwarfs ours) being relegated contributed to our success in any way is completely without foundation. 

Basically what you're saying is football is based solely on budget and size of club and any smaller team being successful doesn't count because the bigger teams should finish above them. Mental. 

Rangers are out of the top league because they broke the rules. Hearts were relegated because of a points deduction they couldn't make up. They actually did really well with a team of kids, so I don't buy the "not good enough" in either case. Hibs were a basket case under a couple of managers and ended up in the playoff place due to one of the most alarming losses of the plot anyone has seen when Butcher was in charge. The fact that we are attempting to emulate that at the moment is neither here nor there.

If budget is no factor, why have Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs consistently finished above the likes of ourselves and the Hamiltons, Particks, Motherwells and Dundees of this world? Same goes for cup wins. Check the stats, it's not difficult. Simple answer is resources. Of course there are exceptions. One of the big sides has a rough season, bad manager, or a bad game which knocks them out of a cup, to let someone else in - but on the whole over piece these are the most successful Scottish clubs as has been proved over decades.

To not acknowlege that three of the above were out of the top league and another, Aberdeen, were a club in a transitional state at the same time didn't contribute to the successful seasons we had around the same time is to deny reality and is the real "mental" here. Three of those clubs are now back where you'd ordinarily expect them to be. One of the others has just knocked us out of the League Cup. Ok, we played some good stuff during that time as well, but the situation with the other teams helped, to be sure. 

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Agree about the abuse he gets tbh, there was someone behind me in the East who was spewing it out every time he came near him, balls at the other side of the pitch and he was screaming at Fisher to stop being such a lazy b****** and get involved. Probably the same guy who blamed Fisher when he was overlapping Thomson, who had ignored him to run inside towards opposition players, who then lost the ball 20 yards from our own goal and Thistle moved into the space Fisher was in

I don't know if it's just Fishers style but he jogs about and often gets caught in possession/out of position then does not burst a gut to get back and sort himself out. Again you can make allowances for his age and I think defenders maybe take longer to develop than some other positions although there are some solid young defenders in England and you've got to think Fisher will be getting some of the best coaching available at Celtic. 

There's clearly some ability there but he needs a lot of guidance in developing a better work rate and attitude. I'm not saying he has a bad attitude but he needs to learn to take responsibility for his role. Maybe that's the issue, he's too young and raw and we need experience to get us through this. That's not his fault.

 

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Rangers are out of the top league because they broke the rules. Hearts were relegated because of a points deduction they couldn't make up. They actually did really well with a team of kids, so I don't buy the "not good enough" in either case. Hibs were a basket case under a couple of managers and ended up in the playoff place due to one of the most alarming losses of the plot anyone has seen when Butcher was in charge. The fact that we are attempting to emulate that at the moment is neither here nor there.

If budget is no factor, why have Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs consistently finished above the likes of ourselves and the Hamiltons, Particks, Motherwells and Dundees of this world? Same goes for cup wins. Check the stats, it's not difficult. Simple answer is resources. Of course there are exceptions. One of the big sides has a rough season, bad manager, or a bad game which knocks them out of a cup, to let someone else in - but on the whole over piece these are the most successful Scottish clubs as has been proved over decades.

To not acknowlege that three of the above were out of the top league and another, Aberdeen, were a club in a transitional state at the same time didn't contribute to the successful seasons we had around the same time is to deny reality and is the real "mental" here. Three of those clubs are now back where you'd ordinarily expect them to be. One of the others has just knocked us out of the League Cup. Ok, we played some good stuff during that time as well, but the situation with the other teams helped, to be sure. 

We beat Aberdeen and Dundee United, two of the traditional big six to win the cup. We weren't just given it because Hibs (Hibs for Christ sake) and Hearts weren't in the league. The 'transitional spell' for Aberdeen saw them win their first cup in 25 years and only he pipped at the post for second by that Motherwell side who were on a complete decline btw.

Of course budget helps win you cups and improves your league position, but it's an alarming level of self depreciation to want to play down your only cup win in your history. Hibs and Rangers were both in that cup with substantially bigger budgets than ours by the way. 

Can you imagine a Man United fan sat saying 'yeah, we've won 13 titles or whatever in the last 25 years, but it doesn't really count because Liverpool aren't as good as they once were,' which is essentially the point you are making here. 

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Might worry is the loosening of the purse strings.

We have been linked with numerous players, Mcginn, Loy, Hemmings, Mcshane, Holt, etc but all went elsewhere, mostly will be because of money offered.

Even if we did loosen the purse strings, we will still be no where near paying enough to attract decent players.

Tommy wont play youngsters, so are we even looking at good younger lower division players, to try and get, take a risk on, as other teams have.

What happened to the Medhi Abeid type loans that we previously got, don't even hear of any whispers recently

This team is falling apart due to age, staleness, etc. Yet we have done nothing to try and improve for the future.

The futures not bright

 

lot of great youngsters in the saints academy 

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Rangers are out of the top league because they broke the rules. Hearts were relegated because of a points deduction they couldn't make up. They actually did really well with a team of kids, so I don't buy the "not good enough" in either case. Hibs were a basket case under a couple of managers and ended up in the playoff place due to one of the most alarming losses of the plot anyone has seen when Butcher was in charge. The fact that we are attempting to emulate that at the moment is neither here nor there.

If budget is no factor, why have Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs consistently finished above the likes of ourselves and the Hamiltons, Particks, Motherwells and Dundees of this world? Same goes for cup wins. Check the stats, it's not difficult. Simple answer is resources. Of course there are exceptions. One of the big sides has a rough season, bad manager, or a bad game which knocks them out of a cup, to let someone else in - but on the whole over piece these are the most successful Scottish clubs as has been proved over decades.

To not acknowlege that three of the above were out of the top league and another, Aberdeen, were a club in a transitional state at the same time didn't contribute to the successful seasons we had around the same time is to deny reality and is the real "mental" here. Three of those clubs are now back where you'd ordinarily expect them to be. One of the others has just knocked us out of the League Cup. Ok, we played some good stuff during that time as well, but the situation with the other teams helped, to be sure. 

I find your argument to be an incredibly negative way of looking at things, and I'm not even sure it's all that accurate.

I'm sure everyone would accept that, had Old Rangers kept their place in our league, we wouldn't have had the same level of success over the last four or five years (that's without going into the very important fact that we now know Rangers' success came from cheating). But to bring Hibs into the same bracket is surely stretching things. For as long as I've followed football, Hibs have been a very average SPL side who have been more likely to be near the bottom end of the table than the top of it. It's also not that long since their previous relegation, so being crap is far from an unusual situation for them. Other than maybe one or two seasons where they finished third, they've always been a beatable opponent for Saints and I don't think their league or Cup performances have been significantly better than ours have. Hibs could now be heading for a THIRD successive season in the lower leagues - that's purely because they're not good enough for the top league. Hearts - yes, they tend to finish above us but, like Rangers, they essentially dropped out of the picture due to cheating. That's on them.

Your argument ignores the fact that traditionally smaller clubs like ICT and Ross County are growing in stature, and filled the gap left by Hearts and Hibs in providing competition for those top places. It also ignores the fact that, while clubs like Hearts, Rangers and others (to lesser extents) have slipped due to financial mis-management, Saints by the same token have risen as a result of being extremely well run. It could be argued that this situation had been bubbling for years, and Saints' success is simply a case of the club finally getting what it has worked towards. There was no guarantee that Saints would be the club to capitalise on others' misfortunes - just look at the likes of Falkirk, Dunfermline etc. Saints are here instead of them because we deserve it and they don't.

When we've finished third, fourth or whatever else it's been because that's our fair position in the country - that's simple fact. Maybe Man City and Chelsea have only won the English Premier League lately because Man Utd and Liverpool are having a slump. Maybe Leicester are only top of the league because every single other team in the whole of England is having a slump. When Celtic win our league it's because Rangers are in a slump, and vice-versa. Only when Brazil are in a slump does anyone else win the World Cup. But it's the fact that smaller, less powerful teams can sometimes enjoy success that surely makes football worth watching in the first place? Let's not ruin that.

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We beat Aberdeen and Dundee United, two of the traditional big six to win the cup. We weren't just given it because Hibs (Hibs for Christ sake) and Hearts weren't in the league. The 'transitional spell' for Aberdeen saw them win their first cup in 25 years and only he pipped at the post for second by that Motherwell side who were on a complete decline btw.

Of course budget helps win you cups and improves your league position, but it's an alarming level of self depreciation to want to play down your only cup win in your history. Hibs and Rangers were both in that cup with substantially bigger budgets than ours by the way. 

Can you imagine a Man United fan sat saying 'yeah, we've won 13 titles or whatever in the last 25 years, but it doesn't really count because Liverpool aren't as good as they once were,' which is essentially the point you are making here. 

The most annoying thing that's happened this week was our manager stating on national radio that we, the St Johnstone fans, should have a reality check and realise we shouldn't be playing at the level of the big boys and know our place. A disgrace.   

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The most annoying thing that's happened this week was our manager stating on national radio that we, the St Johnstone fans, should have a reality check and realise we shouldn't be playing at the level of the big boys and know our place. A disgrace.   

Are you talking about this interview?... http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/scotland/35713811

Because in that one he mentions we've had "four unbelievable years" and he talks a bit about the fans booing the team at half-time, but he says nothing about reality checks, or knowing our place, or that we "shouldn't be playing at the level of the big boys". Are you sure he said those things?

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The most annoying thing that's happened this week was our manager stating on national radio that we, the St Johnstone fans, should have a reality check and realise we shouldn't be playing at the level of the big boys and know our place. A disgrace.   

It would indeed be a disgrace if  He said these things.  But he didn't. 

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PS. To bring it back closer to the topic - I find the first post in this thread, and some others that have been popping up on here, to be incredibly disrespectful to our best ever manager.

No one mentioned Willie Ormond did they ?.

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