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rik2304

Rise of the Tories...........

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He is my local MSP and during the marriage equality debates he had said that he was casting his vote based on the opinions he had heard from his constituents. He must have only listened to his pals in church as he said most were against the bill.

I am sure Cain would not have killed Abel if their head master was named person :)

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There was no deal. There might have been, but the Red and Blue Tories scuppered it. Lost Scotland thousands of jobs just to get a headline. Utterly pathetic.

How long do you think a political party can blame previous administrations for everything?  Usually its about 18 months, maybe 2 years? Scotland's position is of course devolved a situation that might buy them more time than the usual, deepest recession for 80 years, more time yet.... so the SNP have manged to wring nearly a decade out of this politically insulated circumstance.  But really, how much longer can they answer every question with 'I will take no lessons from'????  Whatever the indy zealots think, Nicola Strugeon is beginning to look increasingly out of her depth.  I understand Brian Soutar (that paragon of social progress) played a key role in securing the MOU, acting on behalf of an unquestionalby centre right nationalist government.........this is reeking, and a major emabrassement for the SG.  Yet again they appear to be less than honest about how things are unfolding.  One of the few backers of Indy with serious academic credentials was Margaret Cuthbert, even she is now asking questions of an increasingly surreptitious administration. https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/9162/margaret-cuthbert-what-gers-and-brexit-reports-tell-us-about-scotlands-economy But you keep shouting about Red Tories and tell yourself what you have to..... if it makes you feel better, such observations are becoming increasingly threadbare to everyone else.

 

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Dear God. 

1. Brian Souter was not involved, at all. That was a ridiculous allegation invented by one of the Blue Tory papers.

2. There was no deal. This was an MoU with China, talks about talks about talks. The UK government signed a similar MoU with China yesterday, one of half a dozen they have recently signed with China. Westminster opposition parties have been either silent or supportive, because they are not so desperate to sell their country down the river for a headline.

3. It wasn't a secret deal. There was a press photo of the signing issued, which the Scottish press chose not to run because it was a nothing story, until they realised it would make a decent SNP bad story.

4. This has nothing to do with previous administrations. This all happened in the last 6 to 8 months. No one blamed a previous administration. That's bonkers.

5. The Unionist parties, aided by the BBC, went SNP bad crazy over the thing, apparently most concerned that the non existent deal was with a company the SNP had had no talks with which might or might not have been accused by the Norwegians of being corrupt in securing contracts. (Unlike BAE, rolls Royce, BP etc).

6. The Chinese abandoned the talks, directly citing the hostile political atmosphere.

Thats what happened. But that isn't SNP bad enough, so a load of shite was made up instead. 

 

Edited by Abernethy Saint

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I have no problem with the Scottish Government exploring options for fiscal stimulus, indeed it is their duty, especially as their own statistical analysis (GERS) and their political ambition point to a serious black hole in finances, without some cash from somewhere they simply cannot propose 'independence' with any credibility.  I did not use the word 'deal', quite deliberately, I said MOU.........and well done for getting in the tired old 'SNP bad' horseshit....the stock response to anyone who holds this shower of Tartan Tories to account for the state of the public services, or the Named Person fiasco, or the OBF cluster****, but, are you really telling me they never blame previous/westminster administrations for anything?  :)

As for Stonewall's 'bigot of the year' his involvement may be circumstantial..........but its there.  What did he get for his £1 million donation? 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/31/nicola-sturgeon-facing-more-questions-over-china-deal-after-foi/

 

 

 

 

 

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1. GERs is not the Scottish Government's own analysis. They provide some figures for it, but it is compiled by Westminster. Gordon Brown and other ex UK ministers have acknowledged that it's only purpose is to demonstrate the supposed unviability of a free Scotland. It bears no resemblance at all to the fiscal position of a free Scotland, containing such things as a Scottish share of Trident, of HS2, of the UK national debt interest and so on. The Scottish Government have repeatedly asked for a breakdown of some of the contents that emerge from Westminster, but have been repeatedly refused. 

2. Name me one government, ever, in the world that has not blamed previous administrations. Why should the SNP be held to fantastically higher standards than your party?

3. Tartan Tories is just pathetic. The SNP voted against every Tory benefit cut. Your party abstained on or supported almost all. So that would make you, logically, the Tartan UKIP?

your better than this shite, mate. This is why Labour is now an irrelevance in Scottish politics. Stop fibbing, take a sensible position on the constitution, and find a policy that doesn't consist entirely of slagging off Scotland and the SNP. You've been rumbled.

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I will try to address the points you have made AS, as you have accused me of ‘fibbing’ I feel I must respond. I do enjoy our little exchanges, sorry about the length of this post, but here goes;

1.  You are quite misinformed about GERS.

 ‘The Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) web area provides information on the annually published GERS report. GERS is compiled by statisticians and economists in the Office of the Chief Economic Adviser of the Scottish Government. The Scottish Government's Chief Statistician takes responsibility for this publication’.  (Scottish Govt.2016)

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/GERS

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

     "This GERS follows a major review, which has been carried out by officials after consulting widely with users of GERS, (including economists and statisticians like ourselves) [..]HM Treasury data, which is the basic source for the expenditure figures in GERS, and which until recently was a black box to all outside the Treasury, has been vetted thoroughly by statisticians in Scotland, and they have shown themselves willing to override the Treasury's figures [..] In presentational terms, the report is now supported by very much more detail: this not only gives it increased credibility, but also makes it a very much more useful document" (Pro Indy economists and government statisticians Jim and Margaret Cuthbert 2008)

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"The starting point for this analysis is the national statistics publication, Government Expenditure and Revenues Scotland (GERS) is the authoritative publication on Scotland's public finances."

(Scotland’s Future; White Paper on Independence [written by SNP] 2014: Page 67)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 The SNP have been in office for a decade, they have altered the GERS methodology several times and they used GERS to construct a case for independence in 2014.  It is simply not tenable, to dismiss these figures now because they outline some uncomfortable ‘truths’.   Economists can argue all day about methodology and fiscal projections but the weak response from the pro indy campaigners to the GERS report (and the SNP) should have you worried.  Further, if these statistics represent conjecture and estimation as is often alleged, then logically it could be far worse, especially if the SNP have had their chosen statisticians all over them.  Let’s just say it stretches credibility to assert that the SNP have shaped a methodology which under-estimates the economic possibilities of an iScotland by billions.  If as you allege, Westminster were denying the Scottish Govt data for their own fiscal projections, do you really think the SNP would be silent about it? Really?

 

 The two examples you give are classics.  Let’s start with Trident.  The official estimate of Trident (6% of total UK defence expenditure) is £50 Billion over 40 years, now we both know how such projects rarely if ever come in under budget especially if the MOD is involved, but even if we accept the higher estimates £100 billion as I read over and over on Yes Scotland leaflets and we ‘do the math’ as they say…10% of 100Bn = 10 Bn /40 = 250 million per year.  Now, I always tell my children never put ‘only’ in front of a sum of money…..but £250 million is simply not game changing amounts of revenue, and it is misleading to claim otherwise, it is to place it in context,  someway south of the Scottish Govt. underspend in each of last few years, (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13196280.Scottish_Government_in_record___444m_underspend/) ………..it does not even scratch the fiscal transfer sums. (8-10 Bn per annum).  HS2 is in GERS (p77) and Scotland is given a 2% share consistent with projected economic benefits, I would have thought it axiomatic if our biggest market is rUK (65%) and a major infrastructural investment cuts through the spine of England, creating jobs and fiscal -stimulus as well as increasing flow of goods, services and people then Scotland’s economy will in turn benefit…..once again looked at in context these are not significant sums that will float the new Scotland.

One of my biggest influences is historian Tom Devine…he is probably a world authority on the complexities of Union (he voted Yes by the way!)…..he wrote last week, ‘There is still an intellectual hole at the heart of the pro-independence policy………….an economic hole’,    I really do not think he can be easily  dismissed as a unionist propagandist, indeed his gravitas as an intellectual places him way ahead of an unhinged, crowd funded, swivel eyed loon with a box of crayons and too much time on his hands somewhere in Somerset.  ;)  I am trying to use sources sympathetic to Scottish Independence in an attempt to penetrate the surety in so many nationalists that borders on conspiracy theories.  The economic arguments lost the ref last time out, deficit denial will not win it next time………….and that is before we get to currency, start-up costs, pensions, and any of the other questions which remain unanswered in the two years since the Ref.

2. I hinted in my last post that all governments blame the previous administration for everything….for 2 years max, after that period of time the public will not accept such excuses, my point here was that even allowing for a distinct constellation of circumstances the Scottish Government have managed to extend this period to about a decade…………not any longer! If they want to campaign for independence, fine then be a pressure group…. if they want to run the country and oversee the public services etc. then, get on with it and take some f*****g responsibility for the things they have done.  Which takes us neatly to the next point….

 

3.  We have been here before, and as before I will request from you a single measure enacted by the SNP that can be described as progressive?  That is, a measure that helps the poorest and charges the wealthy?  They have tossed junkets to the middle classes again and again.  For example, why did they abolish prescription charges (£60 million income in 2006/7) and simultaneously cut the number of training places for nurses, leading directly to the current crisis?  (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34597068)  Those on benefits, under18s, registered disabled, pregnant, chronically ill, all received ‘free’ prescriptions under the old system……..a classic SNP dodge, chuck a few quid at the well off and make it look like egalitarian progress. 

In 1997 the people of Scotland were offered two questions one establishing a new parliament, the second question related to tax raising powers.  The Scottish Government have scope to raise billions of extra revenues, scope that has been enhanced in 2012 Scotland Act and will be enhanced further in Scotland Act 2016………. instead they have cut government income and then complained about ‘austerity’……………once again this is just not credible to anyone with critical faculties.  The independence campaign has corralled the left into the cul-de-sac of RIC and now all they talk about is the constitution, meanwhile the Tories and the SNP vote down a series of progressive measures on taxation from the other parties.  You may wish to point to the performance of SNP MP’s in Westminster, where they can do little of substance but do engage in performances of undergraduate student politics, would it not be better to examine their actions in office in Scotland?

 

I am happy to discuss the problems facing the Labour Party, and all other centre-left parties across Europe.  It appears as class identities fray and fragment in the face of globalisation and the changing post-industrial landscape, the only political currency is found in the totemic myths of nationalism, all that ‘take back control’, ‘make our country great again’ and other such horsesh*t is sweeping the continent and beyond, a dangerous situation.  The only ‘sensible’ position on the constitution is stop these divisive referenda and look to a constitutional convention to repair the divisions across these islands and address the issues of governance for all the people.  Finally, there is a world of difference between ‘slagging off Scotland’ and slagging off the SNP, the arrogance of nationalists who position themselves as ‘Scotland’ is breath taking.  Slagging off the SNP?  You mean holding the Government to account?  Slagging off Scotland?  Where did I do that?

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IMO the rise of the Tories is down to the parlous state of the opposition; nothing to do with what the Tories are actually doing.

I like the patriotic nature of the SNP, but that's about it. Labour, Lib Dems, UKIP, others all laughable, maybe the Greens are the ones for the future, stewarding our world is something we can do for our future generations.

Have only voted once in a general election and the guy I voted for lost, don't plan to repeat it any time soon. Proportional representation ya bass.

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IMO the rise of the Tories is down to the parlous state of the opposition; nothing to do with what the Tories are actually doing.

I like the patriotic nature of the SNP, but that's about it. Labour, Lib Dems, UKIP, others all laughable, maybe the Greens are the ones for the future, stewarding our world is something we can do for our future generations.

Have only voted once in a general election and the guy I voted for lost, don't plan to repeat it any time soon. Proportional representation ya bass.

There is something in what you say here Chundy.  The opposition is in a poor condition, and the constitutional question complicates matters further, but I would guard against thinking the Tories are merely the recipients of such good fortune.  The Tory Party are probably without peer globally in terms of their longevity.  For centuries they have risen above their challengers to retain control..........the Tories are always in......they own everything!  They have deep roots in Scotland, going way back, the main centre of Jacobite support was the Tory Party allied to the misplaced feudal fealty of the highland clans.  Not for the last time, even when swimming against the tide of history, the Tory Party re-emerges and regains power.  More recently they remain the only party in the modern era, to secure over 50% of the popular vote, (1955) and even the 'hated' Thatcher in her pomp scored between 25-31% of the vote (double that of the SNP). 

As the bandwagon of independence grinds to a shuddering halt, the demand for a 'new', 'radical', 'environmentally friendly', 'socially liberal', 'welfarist', 'anti austerity', 'scandinavian', 'fairer Scotland' appears to have passed its high water mark.  As elites are challenged by the Brexit and Trump results, a significant majority of Scots appear stubbornly resistant to the simplistic populist  jingoism of 'take back control'.  Would it be exaggerating to suggest that its now the Tories who have emerged in post ref(s) Scotland as the 'punk' outsiders?.....probably :)...but you take my point, Ruth Davidson is landing ever heavier blows upon an increasingly beleaguered first minister, whose moment as fresh radical harbinger of change has now passed.  It will be interesting to see just how far the Tories can carry this revival, and make no mistake it is a revival.

Edited by Smarmy Arab

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How long do you think a political party can blame previous administrations for everything?  Usually its about 18 months, maybe 2 years? Scotland's position is of course devolved a situation that might buy them more time than the usual, deepest recession for 80 years, more time yet.... so the SNP have manged to wring nearly a decade out of this politically insulated circumstance.  But really, how much longer can they answer every question with 'I will take no lessons from'????  Whatever the indy zealots think, Nicola Strugeon is beginning to look increasingly out of her depth.  I understand Brian Soutar (that paragon of social progress) played a key role in securing the MOU, acting on behalf of an unquestionalby centre right nationalist government.........this is reeking, and a major emabrassement for the SG.  Yet again they appear to be less than honest about how things are unfolding.  One of the few backers of Indy with serious academic credentials was Margaret Cuthbert, even she is now asking questions of an increasingly surreptitious administration. https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/9162/margaret-cuthbert-what-gers-and-brexit-reports-tell-us-about-scotlands-economy But you keep shouting about Red Tories and tell yourself what you have to..... if it makes you feel better, such observations are becoming increasingly threadbare to everyone else.

 

Why don't you ask the Tory's ( the red ones as well as the blue ones ) that question?

Every time an incumbent government get asked a question it's " the previous party left an awful mess etc etc". The Tory's still blame the last Labour government ( if you can still use that name for them ) for everything that has happened since they took over. National debt = labours fault, austerity = labours fault, the rise of the SNP = labours fault despite the fact it either happened or got worse on their watch. And it's been a damn sight longer than 18months since they got their snouts in the trough. I had voted Labour in every general election right up until "NEW" Labour done away with clause 4 and became the "OLD" Tory's.

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Why don't you ask the Tory's ( the red ones as well as the blue ones ) that question?

Every time an incumbent government get asked a question it's " the previous party left an awful mess etc etc". The Tory's still blame the last Labour government ( if you can still use that name for them ) for everything that has happened since they took over. National debt = labours fault, austerity = labours fault, the rise of the SNP = labours fault despite the fact it either happened or got worse on their watch. And it's been a damn sight longer than 18months since they got their snouts in the trough. I had voted Labour in every general election right up until "NEW" Labour done away with clause 4 and became the "OLD" Tory's.

Read the rest of the post and you will see I readily acknowledge every government does this. The point I'm making is the Scottish government have had a longer period than most.  

as for red tories.......the last labour  governments poured money into public services, took millions out of poverty, redistributed hundreds of billions through tax credits, devolved power to parliaments in Scotland and Wales,  introduced human rights legislation, land mark legislation for lgbt, wrote of billions of 3rd world debt, set the first ever national minimum wage...all stuff a Tory government would never do. not perfect, I left the party over the disaster of Iraq,  but imo this red tory stuff is counter factual bollocks.  

 

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There is something in what you say here Chundy.  The opposition is in a poor condition, and the constitutional question complicates matters further, but I would guard against thinking the Tories are merely the recipients of such good fortune.  The Tory Party are probably without peer globally in terms of their longevity.  For centuries they have risen above their challengers to retain control..........the Tories are always in......they own everything!  They have deep roots in Scotland, going way back, the main centre of Jacobite support was the Tory Party allied to the misplaced feudal fealty of the highland clans.  Not for the last time, even when swimming against the tide of history, the Tory Party re-emerges and regains power.  More recently they remain the only party in the modern era, to secure over 50% of the popular vote, (1955) and even the 'hated' Thatcher in her pomp scored between 25-31% of the vote (double that of the SNP). 

As the bandwagon of independence grinds to a shuddering halt, the demand for a 'new', 'radical', 'environmentally friendly', 'socially liberal', 'welfarist', 'anti austerity', 'scandinavian', 'fairer Scotland' appears to have passed its high water mark.  As elites are challenged by the Brexit and Trump results, a significant majority of Scots appear stubbornly resistant to the simplistic populist  jingoism of 'take back control'.  Would it be exaggerating to suggest that its now the Tories who have emerged in post ref(s) Scotland as the 'punk' outsiders?.....probably :)...but you take my point, Ruth Davidson is landing ever heavier blows upon an increasingly beleaguered first minister, whose moment as fresh radical harbinger of change has now passed.  It will be interesting to see just how far the Tories can carry this revival, and make no mistake it is a revival.

Smarmy it's quite clear to me that you have given a great deal of thought to this and knowing my propensity to intellectual laziness, fondness for alcohol, contempt for detail and expat status in Engurland I can only concur.

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its no wonder the regular man (or woman) in the street is disengaging with mainstream politics when all we get from all sides is a lenghty unreadable diatribe that only their opposition has the time or inclination to read through.

im not asking for voxpox, but anything rather than blah blah blah

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its no wonder the regular man (or woman) in the street is disengaging with mainstream politics when all we get from all sides is a lenghty unreadable diatribe that only their opposition has the time or inclination to read through.

im not asking for voxpox, but anything rather than blah blah blah

No offence mate but would you like your news and analysis from Faceb00k or Teweetr which may become the latest source of information for the regular punter in the South Street?

It is clear that the state of political discourse is deterioating...witness the hounding of Charles Kennedy before his death.

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in my meagre defense, i probably agree more rather than less, with abernethy , than some of the rabid right wingers on here.

i make no excuses for voting remain, and changing my allegiance after brexit.

im not a nat, not a brit. party politics are fecked. vote on the issues

I'd wager I agree with AS on a whole range of issues, we will differ in terms of how to get there...........I don't do nationalism of any kind, and just can't get on board with those who see the partition of these islands as a an obvious solution.  Believe it or not, 'unionism' is not a position I start from, it is a position I arrive at, and I could be persuaded to change position....but so far I see only an economic tail spin resulting from iScotland......all for a flag and a song!  

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