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14 hours ago, Honest Saints Fan said:

If the "no to independence" side are so confident of winning another referendum why do they not want one? Another NO vote would put the matter to bed for a long time IMO.

If only this were so HSF.  Referenda are supposed to settle constitutional questions, this has not been the case in recent times.  We had a 2 year campaign around independence, the most fantasticist, wonderfulist expression of democratic  engagement in the history of democratic engagement (allegedly), the issues were covered ad nauseum, the turn out was record breaking, the losers have never accepted the result, and have been agitating for another everyday since.  If we held another and the Remain side won the Scexiteers would simply go for a 3rd and 4th till we got it 'right'.

 

Look at the mess over Brexit......recent experience tells me that referenda are divisive and deeply damaging and fail to yield the promised 'settled will'.  I may well be somewhat misanthropic about direct democracy, but I have yet to see it deliver progress.

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9 minutes ago, Smarmy Arab said:

If only this were so HSF.  Referenda are supposed to settle constitutional questions, this has not been the case in recent times.  We had a 2 year campaign around independence, the most fantasticist, wonderfulist expression of democratic  engagement in the history of democratic engagement (allegedly), the issues were covered ad nauseum, the turn out was record breaking, the losers have never accepted the result, and have been agitating for another everyday since.  If we held another and the Remain side won the Scexiteers would simply go for a 3rd and 4th till we got it 'right'.

 

Look at the mess over Brexit......recent experience tells me that referenda are divisive and deeply damaging and fail to yield the promised 'settled will'.  I may well be somewhat misanthropic about direct democracy, but I have yet to see it deliver progress.

Why would people who have devoted their political lives to Independence stop just because of what is in effect a setback? I'd be much more concerned about someone's intentions if they just shut up all together as they clearly didn't believe in it all along. The record high turn out and discussions (heated a lot of the time) show that political engagement has never been higher in Scotland and that surely can't be considered a bad thing. Of course there are nutters on both sides who take things too far but I think any sane minded individual can have a political debate with someone on the other side - surely that's what a democracy gives us and what it's for. 

With regards to the a second referendum, I'm quite happy to sit and wait just now - the Tories are doing a fine job of cutting the union's throat on their own. I'm not convinced we'd win at this stage and, with a proper election strategy, I'm fairly sure the pro-independence parties will hold a majority in the Scottish Parliament after the next election too. There's no rush.

Theresa May's hilarious assertion that the 'country' (meaning the UK) is more united than ever during the last election campaign is mega lolz though. That really couldn't be further from the truth and I'm not just talking in relation to Scotland. The Tories have caused most of that themselves as well.

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58 minutes ago, Smarmy Arab said:

If only this were so HSF.  Referenda are supposed to settle constitutional questions, this has not been the case in recent times.  We had a 2 year campaign around independence, the most fantasticist, wonderfulist expression of democratic  engagement in the history of democratic engagement (allegedly), the issues were covered ad nauseum, the turn out was record breaking, the losers have never accepted the result, and have been agitating for another everyday since.  If we held another and the Remain side won the Scexiteers would simply go for a 3rd and 4th till we got it 'right'.

 

Look at the mess over Brexit......recent experience tells me that referenda are divisive and deeply damaging and fail to yield the promised 'settled will'.  I may well be somewhat misanthropic about direct democracy, but I have yet to see it deliver progress.

A few good points in there.  To me it shows that "democracy", at least as I understand it, no longer exists in this country. The Scottish "Nationalists" set the standard for the "stampy-feet, pick-up-my-ball, run-home-crying" style response to the first independence referendum, which has been copied with go-faster-stripes following Brexit by the Remain campaign.

I have no issue with people with a consensus pushing for self-determination; although the notion of "self-determination" Scottish "Nationalists" espouse seems bizarre, since any powers that they claim WM will "grab" back from the EU and not pass to Holyrood, will presumably have to be passed straight back to the EU, once the SNP's intention of rejoining that cabal is enacted?  "Self-determination" indeed...  However, personally I believe there are many, many questions to be asked surrounding the notion of what "self-determination" actually means, what sort of society we actually want, and what being Scottish, British or even European really means. Unfortunately many of these questions are not able to be asked at the moment, due to a well coordinated leftist narrative, and more worryingly, a pretty significant erosion of freedom and expression that I see in action already.

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11 minutes ago, HertsAgain said:

However, personally I believe there are many, many questions to be asked surrounding the notion of what "self-determination" actually means, what sort of society we actually want, and what being Scottish, British or even European really means. Unfortunately many of these questions are not able to be asked at the moment, due to a well coordinated leftist narrative, and more worryingly, a pretty significant erosion of freedom and expression that I see in action already.

What kind of society do you want? It should be built from your own idea - not led by others. Is that not why you voted for Brexit? 

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2 hours ago, Kyle said:

Why would people who have devoted their political lives to Independence stop just because of what is in effect a setback? I'd be much more concerned about someone's intentions if they just shut up all together as they clearly didn't believe in it all along. The record high turn out and discussions (heated a lot of the time) show that political engagement has never been higher in Scotland and that surely can't be considered a bad thing. Of course there are nutters on both sides who take things too far but I think any sane minded individual can have a political debate with someone on the other side - surely that's what a democracy gives us and what it's for. 

With regards to the a second referendum, I'm quite happy to sit and wait just now - the Tories are doing a fine job of cutting the union's throat on their own. I'm not convinced we'd win at this stage and, with a proper election strategy, I'm fairly sure the pro-independence parties will hold a majority in the Scottish Parliament after the next election too. There's no rush.

Theresa May's hilarious assertion that the 'country' (meaning the UK) is more united than ever during the last election campaign is mega lolz though. That really couldn't be further from the truth and I'm not just talking in relation to Scotland. The Tories have caused most of that themselves as well.

Some reasonable points here Kyle, it is of course a democracy and yes political engagement is a good thing, however when I take a step back and look at what is happening..........

 

I can remember when Quebec was the go to scenario for the Scottish Nationalists, for good reason there are a number of similarities. By the late 20th century the Quebec Nationalist party were polling in the 40's and had gained control of the political apparatus, but they could not quite gain the required majority for 'independence'. They used their political position to centralise and politicise everything they could, particularly in the field of language and culture. (sound familiar?) Try as they might, they could not convince the majority that partition of Canada, tearing Quebec from a large diverse democratic economy was in the cultural, political, social or economic interests of the people of Quebec or Canada. For over 20 years the nationalists obsessed over a constitutional question and the economy became stagnant, with little investment coming in and worse still investment flowing out, thousands of people and businesses relocated to escape the turgid reality and uncertainty of neverendum. This situation became so dire the SNP quietly dropped any talk of Quebec, and switched affections to Catalonia....how is that working out? Yet another minority nationalist movement who ignore the wishes of the majority, force through an illegal referendum and the Catalan economy faces capital
flight, political paralysis and a grim outlook for the future, with their leadership now jailed facing charges of sedition. The UDI was greeted with indifference across the EU, no significant support anywhere least of all in Spain, whilst in Catalonia itself the mass mobilisation of civil action has simply failed to materialise. All this so that a few emotional fanatics can march around, singing songs and waving flags in a state of arousal? 

Odds are the Scottish situation will end in similar fashion, if there is another indyref all available evidence suggest the people will again reject it.

Scotland is now in a neverendum situation, over a decade of constitutional bun fighting, authoritarian technocratic managerialist centralisation, complete with rebranding into a moribund language, gleefully led by cynical self-interested Pied Piper politicians, with mood music provided by similarly self- interested artists, writers and poets.  Whist Mr Blackford led his heroic troops in an undergraduate stunt last week, back in Scotland we discover the Scottish Government have been f*cking around with journalists and political opponents FOI requests in case they reveal damaging truths about how they conduct their business, how democratic......and another example of why an indy pressure group should not remain in office indefinitely.  Brexit certainly presents a curve ball, but in the cold light of day, are we really saying we should follow a major constitutional clusterf*ck with another one?

Edited by Smarmy Arab
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I don't think the SNP are alone in perpetuating the 'neverendum'. The Tories certainly gain a lot from keeping the constitution at the front and centre of Scottish politics as it distracts from their dreadful record at Westminster and the unfolding Brexit shambles. The gains they've made in the last 3 elections in Scotland (I'm including the council election) are a clear kickback by unionists but I'm not convinced that's based on anything other than the risk of a second referendum. Equally, a lot of yes supporters seemed to either take their eye off the ball or became disillusioned by the SNP prior to the last general election and stayed away from the polling stations. Ruth Davidson has performed well but I can't help but think she's had a pretty Tory friendly environment to operate in. She's done well to disassociate herself with a lot of the worst of what comes from the central office which has clearly helped her case too.

In terms of the SNP's record in Government, I'm not saying it's been fantastic but I don't think it's been too bad either. There's room for improvement absolutely everywhere but for a Government apparently obsessed with Independence and politicising culture and language (I don't see a problem with protecting what is our ancestral language but can see the other side of that too) I think they're functioning relatively well. The BBC reported on the 11th of June that we're seeing a record high in terms of foreign investment into Scotland as well. If I had to vote in a Scottish election tomorrow, my x would be going into the SNP's box again and it wouldn't just because I support Scottish Independence. I don't want Tories running our Parliament and labour are still a pretty nothing alternative just now and I'd be as well chucking my ballot in the bin than voting for the Lib Dems in Glasgow.

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17 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I don't think the SNP are alone in perpetuating the 'neverendum'. The Tories certainly gain a lot from keeping the constitution at the front and centre of Scottish politics as it distracts from their dreadful record at Westminster and the unfolding Brexit shambles. The gains they've made in the last 3 elections in Scotland (I'm including the council election) are a clear kickback by unionists but I'm not convinced that's based on anything other than the risk of a second referendum. Equally, a lot of yes supporters seemed to either take their eye off the ball or became disillusioned by the SNP prior to the last general election and stayed away from the polling stations. Ruth Davidson has performed well but I can't help but think she's had a pretty Tory friendly environment to operate in. She's done well to disassociate herself with a lot of the worst of what comes from the central office which has clearly helped her case too.

In terms of the SNP's record in Government, I'm not saying it's been fantastic but I don't think it's been too bad either. There's room for improvement absolutely everywhere but for a Government apparently obsessed with Independence and politicising culture and language (I don't see a problem with protecting what is our ancestral language but can see the other side of that too) I think they're functioning relatively well. The BBC reported on the 11th of June that we're seeing a record high in terms of foreign investment into Scotland as well. If I had to vote in a Scottish election tomorrow, my x would be going into the SNP's box again and it wouldn't just because I support Scottish Independence. I don't want Tories running our Parliament and labour are still a pretty nothing alternative just now and I'd be as well chucking my ballot in the bin than voting for the Lib Dems in Glasgow.

Exactly my point Kyle....nationalism does the work of the right.......always.

  The GC released last week has let the cat out the bag, not only were the Yes campaign cavalier with the facts in 2014, they now admit independence will inevitably involve a hand-break turn to the right, a generation of austerity, an eye watering squeeze of the public state provision in countless fields, currency chaos........but to their followers  so what?......we will be free! 

No longer is the debate about how best to provide, thrive and survive, it becomes an invidious cocophony about flags, identity and how awful 'they' (English/toareez/Unionists) are!

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The no campaign were equally cavalier with the facts and have equally been shown up as brazen liars too. 'If you vote no, you will be in a partner in a union of equals'. David Mundell himself last week - the secretary of Scotland - said that we're in fact NOT a partner, but a part of the UK. There's countless examples on both ways so I don't think it's fair to paint one side or the other in that manner. The Brexit referendum was exactly the same - all soundbites and bluster, facts lost in amongst the muck each side tried to chuck on each other. 

I know  that things would have been tough in an independent Scotland and voted in the face of that. It's not because I'm a flag waving identity politics nationalist who hates the English as you seem to be implying yes voters are, but I wanted my vote to actually mean something and for us to forge a way in the world that I'm comfortable with. We're in a situation right now where it doesn't matter how we vote - we just get the preferred Government of another country or get dragged out of the EU against our will or end up going to war despite the vast majority of your MPs voted against it. We don't even have the power to really control our own economic policy in any real effective manner and, beyond a wee soundbite here or there, have no say on our foreign or  home affairs which seems wrong to me. I'm under no illusions that Scotland is a small country and I'm not interest in being part of an all conquering world power. I don't think there's anything wrong with being a small, independent country with very little influence globally. Plenty of other countries who don't have the natural resources we have thrive in exactly those conditions, and they do so without trying to police the rest of the world.

 

 

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I would absolutely accept lies on both sides, but there were some whoppers central to Salmond's case, not least of which........Yes told us we would better off, they lied.

The No campaign told us a Yes victory would unleash a generation if austerity......the SNP  after 2 years of reseach now admit this is a certainty.....project fear?  

The SNP also know their prospectus will be a hard sell this time....hence their antics last week, they have lost the argument and are now a wrecking ball....on the outside of the tent p*ssing in barely begins to describe their current demeanour. 

 

Edit...i am not accusing you personally of anything, i am merely observing nationalist populism and how it rolls.

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15 minutes ago, Smarmy Arab said:

I would absolutely accept lies on both sides, but there were some whoppers central to Salmond's case, not least of which........Yes told us we would better off, they lied.

The No campaign told us a Yes victory would unleash a generation if austerity......the SNP  after 2 years of reseach now admit this is a certainty.....project fear?  

The SNP also know their prospectus will be a hard sell this time....hence their antics last week, they have lost the argument and are now a wrecking ball....on the outside of the tent p*ssing in barely begins to describe their current demeanour. 

Yet they're 13 points clear in the polls after 11 years of Government, still hold more than half the seats at Westminster and won the most recent council election. 

I haven't denied that yes lied but I'm not part of the yes campaign and didn't agree with their sunshine and butterflies promises they dished out in the white paper. Scots are naturally pragmatic and want to be faced up with honestly. They have that in the growth commission and there's no surprise that people are by and large far less turned off by it than they were the white paper. I'll always favour independence for the reasons I outlined before.

Of course the parliament walk out was a stunt, but so is all the 'No 2 Indy ref 2' guff from the Tories. The SNP picked up about 9000 new members after their stunt, Murray Foote declared for yes and even Chris Deerin seems to be softening his view on independence, the Tories picked up 12 more seats at Westminster. It's politics - no where and no one is immune to that kind of behaviour.

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20 hours ago, Smarmy Arab said:

'Unfortunately many of these questions are not able to be asked at the moment, due to a well coordinated leftist narrative, and more worryingly, a pretty significant erosion of freedom and expression that I see in action already.'

 

Not sure what you mean by this Herts.

The are certain things in this country that you now can't talk openly about, whereas other "comparable" things appear to still be fair game.

In my opinion, freedom of speech is just that.  NOTHING should be exempt from criticism or questioning.  If I make a statement about anything, someone else should be free to respond and tell me and others why they think my idea is wrong or bad.  Freedom of speech and expression is the way western civilisation has developed, and is WHY it has developed to be the advanced society we have now.  Having said that, individuals should be responsible, and should be accountable if they issue direct threats of harm - valid criticism should never be supressed.  However, we appear to have stopped doing that for certain things in the name of "equality".  At best people will be ostracised publicly by certain factions if they articulate something deemed "offensive", with others too afraid to speak in their defence.  At vest, the authorities will arrest you and even throw you in jail.  That sort of thing may have been prevalent in Nazi Germany, Communist Russia or Orwell's 1984, but NONE OF US should want that anywhere across the western world, where we are meant to be a "free society".

You presumably know the sorts of things I'm talking about.  For examples of this happening across the UK and wider Europe, it's not difficult to find with a simple Google search.  Just steer clear of mainstream media sources...

 

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3 hours ago, HertsAgain said:

The are certain things in this country that you now can't talk openly about, whereas other "comparable" things appear to still be fair game.

In my opinion, freedom of speech is just that.  NOTHING should be exempt from criticism or questioning.  If I make a statement about anything, someone else should be free to respond and tell me and others why they think my idea is wrong or bad.  Freedom of speech and expression is the way western civilisation has developed, and is WHY it has developed to be the advanced society we have now.  Having said that, individuals should be responsible, and should be accountable if they issue direct threats of harm - valid criticism should never be supressed.  However, we appear to have stopped doing that for certain things in the name of "equality".  At best people will be ostracised publicly by certain factions if they articulate something deemed "offensive", with others too afraid to speak in their defence.  At vest, the authorities will arrest you and even throw you in jail.  That sort of thing may have been prevalent in Nazi Germany, Communist Russia or Orwell's 1984, but NONE OF US should want that anywhere across the western world, where we are meant to be a "free society".

You presumably know the sorts of things I'm talking about.  For examples of this happening across the UK and wider Europe, it's not difficult to find with a simple Google search.  Just steer clear of mainstream media sources...

 

I guess uou are talking about 'political correctness'.  Any atempt to police language is problematic, but i thing much of the criticism of PC is hysterical.  Language is powerful and has consequences, ergo I have no problem with analysing the language we use and assess the social consequences of racist,  sexist or homophobic discourses bequeathed to us from a less enlightened age of slavery and empire.

This generation have never had more freedom of speech, if you are telling me western civilisation is under threat because 'you can"t say n***** or p***' anymore I would suggest you are in need of a reset.  

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On 19/06/2018 at 11:21 AM, HertsAgain said:

Not sure what your point is?  That's the way the system works, like it or not.  Those are the voters that felt strongly enough to go out and actually vote Leave.  Presumably fewer than that felt strongly enough to actually go out and vote Remain?

And before we get a response along the lines of "It wasn't enough to take the UK out of a club they'd been in for 45 years, yadda, yadda...", I'd argue that the economic community that people in the UK voted to join in the 70s (I would argue "conned", but that's a personal view) is now not the same "club" now fuelled by pathological altruism and "social justice", and which now seeks to dictate political and fiscal union across the continent.  How odd then, that Scottish "Nationalists" now make a strangely similar type of argument about the UK "not being the same" as when the Independence Referendum was held in 2014, without acknowledging the point about the EEC morphing into something that is wildly different to what we joined.  It's almost as if they had double standards or something...

Hets calm down the figure was given to express how few people out of the electorate brought us to this point. I have no view either way other than people spouting the “people have spoken” really when you look at it they have not really spoken

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