Put your hands in your pockets

[RandomGuy]

1 minute ago, Jimmy Wallace said:

Fair enough, and I apologise for suggesting you don’t care.  Still don’t think it’s a bad idea though.  I would consider donating to the club as part of a structured scheme for the first team squad and there may be others willing to do so.

what I don’t understand though is why the strong reactions against doing so?  Genuine question.

£300, up front, on top of season ticket will be a lot to many people. Theres no chance I could justify spending £600 on Saints on the same day.

You couldn't really have the payments coming in monthly for this "player fund" incase people started bailing out and you're then stuck with a player you cant afford, so it would always need to saving money for the next season.

If people are serious about doing it, you'd have to start a fund now. If people paid £40 a month, that would be £480 each this time next year. If 200 people do that, that's £96k added to the budget for next season.

I do believe if anyone went to the club with this idea they wouldnt get any help or encouragement though.

[andrew]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy Wallace said:

what I don’t understand though is why the strong reactions against doing so?  Genuine question.

If they’re struggling, maybe, but they’re not. We keep hearing about cash reserves of £2m+

The time we were in danger GB stepped in. We’ve not been in danger since:

[Dave H]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy Wallace said:

what I don’t understand though is why the strong reactions against doing so?  Genuine question.

if you or others are paying a players wage and he is sitting on the bench for the entire season as he is not good enough, do you demand he is played?  would you  invest same cash next season as your man is not playing?   

1 player is unlikley to make a difference to the overall team, if funded by fans sponsorship.

If fans have disposable cash to invest in the club, then Saints should set up an Executive Membership or a Community Membership level that at least gives you some token gesture in appreciation of throwing in hundreds of pounds.    (what that might be is a tour of the stadium?  free drink in the Muirton suite each game?

£24 to get in this season, £325 a season ticket - already expensive and if others have £300 spare they could somehow get another season ticket and donate the ticket back to the club (Community Membership) so the club can run a weekly raffle to get a ticket to someone else.   Then you're £300 could get 1 more fan in, increase crowds (buying of food?) etc.

Solely funding a players wages is 100% a pub talk discussion.  

If the club is on it's knees I would donate for survival, sure aint donating to some player, too many wage thieves out there.

[Jimmy Wallace]

2 minutes ago, Dave H said:

if you or others are paying a players wage and he is sitting on the bench for the entire season as he is not good enough, do you demand he is played?  would you  invest same cash next season as your man is not playing?   

1 player is unlikley to make a difference to the overall team, if funded by fans sponsorship.

If fans have disposable cash to invest in the club, then Saints should set up an Executive Membership or a Community Membership level that at least gives you some token gesture in appreciation of throwing in hundreds of pounds.    (what that might be is a tour of the stadium?  free drink in the Muirton suite each game?

£24 to get in this season, £325 a season ticket - already expensive and if others have £300 spare they could somehow get another season ticket and donate the ticket back to the club (Community Membership) so the club can run a weekly raffle to get a ticket to someone else.   Then you're £300 could get 1 more fan in, increase crowds (buying of food?) etc.

Solely funding a players wages is 100% a pub talk discussion.  

If the club is on it's knees I would donate for survival, sure aint donating to some player, too many wage thieves out there.

Ok, so the issue is not the donating per se, it’s the funding of a specific player.  I understand that.

others would feel they would only donate if the club was in trouble.

I’m genuinely interested in how fundraising might be used to help the club, so a very useful thread.

[andrew]

Just now, Jimmy Wallace said:

Ok, so the issue is not the donating per se, it’s the funding of a specific player.  I understand that.

others would feel they would only donate if the club was in trouble.

I’m genuinely interested in how fundraising might be used to help the club, so a very useful thread.

Again, why help a business with a supposed £2m+ cash reserve?

[Guest ScottMann]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Wallace said:

Correct, in fact the Directors have had to put very significant amounts of their own money into the club.  

Really? Please explain.

[Rob]

Why doesnt someone raise the subject at one of the Open Forums.

 

[Valentino Bolognese]

5 hours ago, andrew said:

Again, why help a business with a supposed £2m+ cash reserve?

Just about the worst thing you can do as a business is sit on cash. Keep enough to cashflow X months, depending on the risk of the environment you are operating in, but other that you are wasting resource given the current bank rates and the competition will overtake you. It's very very bad management. I've seen a lot of what I think I would consider bad management and poor strategy, but that's from the outside looking in. 

As for this idea, I give money to charity for things that matter. If I'm putting money into Saints, and I would, I want equity in return. 

As it is I pay for my ST and loads of other bumph. Being a customer should give me enough of a voice if the club are a listening organisation. We'll see at these upcoming events if they are. 

[Center Half]

2 hours ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

Just about the worst thing you can do as a business is sit on cash. Keep enough to cashflow X months, depending on the risk of the environment you are operating in, but other that you are wasting resource given the current bank rates and the competition will overtake you. It's very very bad management. I've seen a lot of what I think I would consider bad management and poor strategy, but that's from the outside looking in. 

As for this idea, I give money to charity for things that matter. If I'm putting money into Saints, and I would, I want equity in return. 

As it is I pay for my ST and loads of other bumph. Being a customer should give me enough of a voice if the club are a listening organisation. We'll see at these upcoming events if they are. 

What a ****ing stupid statement that is! I would assume you have never been an owner of a business or indeed run a business? I have and seen, and had the misfortune to be part of " Bad Management of money" and I can assure anyone who thinks the above bold statement is absolutely nonsense. Company's who are "cash rich" are the successful way to go. Company's should have minimum 2 x months running costs in cash to cover any down turn or any eventuality due to not your fault. So No spending tomorrows money for today is not a great idea, What the OP point was valid. Moaning Chunts love to mouth off especially when it is some cunts else's money but don't ask me to put my hand pocket

****ing Raging at this        

               

 

[Valentino Bolognese]

10 minutes ago, Center Half said:

What a ****ing stupid statement that is! I would assume you have never been an owner of a business or indeed run a business? I have and seen, and had the misfortune to be part of " Bad Management of money" and I can assure anyone who thinks the above bold statement is absolutely nonsense. Company's who are "cash rich" are the successful way to go. Company's should have minimum 2 x months running costs in cash to cover any down turn or any eventuality due to not your fault. So No spending tomorrows money for today is not a great idea, What the OP point was valid. Moaning Chunts love to mouth off especially when it is some cunts else's money but don't ask me to put my hand pocket

****ing Raging at this        

               

 

Mate, It's my job to advise businesses. 

(edit I should have said yes I have run a few, globally, but I should not need to credential myself on an internet forum)

Please re-read my comment, especially the part about 'keep a reserve of X months to cashflow the business' with 'X' depending on the operating environment / risk model. 

We are in agreement, so you can safely calm down. 

Second edit - it's worth pointing out that businesses sitting on more cash than they need are good to look at as acquisition targets, for all sorts of reasons. If you want to be attractive for sale, that's also not a bad reason to sit on cash. 

Also, as I should have said before I'm genuinely sorry to hear that you've been put out of work by poor management. In my experience the UK is absolutely rife with it. 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Valentino Bolognese

[Center Half]

2 minutes ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

Mate, It's my job to advise businesses. 

Please re-read my comment, especially the part about 'keep a reserve of X months to cashflow the business' with 'X' depending on the operating environment / risk model. 

We are in agreement, so you can safely calm down. 

 

 

Not the way it came across/ I read it to be honest, I have had to twice now through no blame to the workforce or my self  in any of the cases but in both cases reckless use of funds in what were cash rich company's ended up in liquidation they also had many adviser involved who always got there invoice paid by the way ! and I have been left to tell young men/women with mortgages/family's to support there is no jobs for them and no money coming, in you kind have a different outlook on these things. 

 

 

        

[Valentino Bolognese]

2 minutes ago, Center Half said:

Not the way it came across/ I read it to be honest, I have had to twice now through no blame to the workforce or my self  in any of the cases but in both cases reckless use of funds in what were cash rich company's ended up in liquidation they also had many adviser involved who always got there invoice paid by the way ! and I have been left to tell young men/women with mortgages/family's to support there is no jobs for them and no money coming, in you kind have a different outlook on these things. 

 

 

        

In which case I can only apologise that I wasn't as clear as I could have been, and again you have my genuine sympathy. 

I guess my main point here is can Saints use what seems to be disproportionate cash in the bank in a way that is more margin generative than the 1% they're going to getting from the bank ... especially as it seems that they are losing pace with the competition and the cost of relegation could be significant. 

If the ambition is to be entirely stable as a Championship outfit that's fine. I just thought, as a supporter, we wanted a wee bit more than that. I don't see a marginal increase in spend introducing undue risk. But then again, and this is a big caveat, I'm not inside the business so really don't know. 

[Abernethy Saint]

8 minutes ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

In which case I can only apologise that I wasn't as clear as I could have been, and again you have my genuine sympathy. 

I guess my main point here is can Saints use what seems to be disproportionate cash in the bank in a way that is more margin generative than the 1% they're going to getting from the bank ... especially as it seems that they are losing pace with the competition and the cost of relegation could be significant. 

If the ambition is to be entirely stable as a Championship outfit that's fine. I just thought, as a supporter, we wanted a wee bit more than that. I don't see a marginal increase in spend introducing undue risk. But then again, and this is a big caveat, I'm not inside the business so really don't know. 

I think it is exceptionally unlikely the money is literally sitting in the bank, or earning just 1%. The Broons don’t button up the back.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Abernethy Saint

[Valentino Bolognese]

5 minutes ago, Abernethy Saint said:

I think it is exceptionally unlikely the money is literally sitting in the bank, or earning just 1%. The Broons don’t button up the back.

If it's sitting on the balance sheet as cash, which I understand it to be from what people here have said, then that is literally what it is doing. 

 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Valentino Bolognese
Edit it might be bonds or whatever, but it's basically cash

[andrew]

25 minutes ago, Center Half said:

Not the way it came across/ I read it to be honest, I have had to twice now through no blame to the workforce or my self  in any of the cases but in both cases reckless use of funds in what were cash rich company's ended up in liquidation they also had many adviser involved who always got there invoice paid by the way ! and I have been left to tell young men/women with mortgages/family's to support there is no jobs for them and no money coming, in you kind have a different outlook on these things. 

 

 

        

I advised businesses too. Many of them folded, jobs gone, disaster. If they’d have listened six months earlier they might have survived, but no.

My original point was why should fans help a business which has cash of £2m+?

[Center Half]

11 minutes ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

In which case I can only apologise that I wasn't as clear as I could have been, and again you have my genuine sympathy. 

I guess my main point here is can Saints use what seems to be disproportionate cash in the bank in a way that is more margin generative than the 1% they're going to getting from the bank ... especially as it seems that they are losing pace with the competition and the cost of relegation could be significant. 

If the ambition is to be entirely stable as a Championship outfit that's fine. I just thought, as a supporter, we wanted a wee bit more than that. I don't see a marginal increase in spend introducing undue risk. But then again, and this is a big caveat, I'm not inside the business so really don't know. 

Point Taking Valentino you hit a nerve!   

3 minutes ago, Abernethy Saint said:

I think it is exceptionally unlikely the money is literally sitting in the bank, or earning just 1%. The Broons don’t button up the back.

True!  However and lets just say for argument sakes! the old Bridge of Earn hospital site was a great investment of money  and  a greater return in two/three years time? That particular development I understand is not actually going to plan I hear. As I have said it is a hypothetical opinion for debate!      

[Center Half]

7 minutes ago, andrew said:

I advised businesses too. Many of them folded, jobs gone, disaster. If they’d have listened six months earlier they might have survived, but no.

My original point was why should fans help a business which has cash of £2m+?

I am not getting into arguments over advisers gents, My own personnel company has survived for 22 years now and is based on a cash rich model! due to many years of personnel hardship/ no wages to make it work to where I am today.

In my two case examples I was "parachuted in" advisers had been involved 2 and 4 years in advance! it is shit to deliver the news to people who work their arse off for companies and they are told this it finished!  whilst I appreciate non of the both you had any part in these cases(I presume) it is not such a open/closed situation as you are making out.

 

 

                 

[Valentino Bolognese]

1 minute ago, Center Half said:

I am not getting into arguments over advisers gents, My own personnel company has survived for 22 years now and is based on a cash rich model! due to many years of personnel hardship/ no wages to make it work to where I am today.

In my two case examples I was "parachuted in" advisers had been involved 2 and 4 years in advance! it is shit to deliver the news to people who work their arse off for companies and they are told this it finished!  whilst I appreciate non of the both you had any part in these cases(I presume) it is not such a open/closed situation as you are making out.

 

 

                 

Every business is different, every situation unique (to a degree), no-one suggested it was a simple situation. 

Quality of advice varies. Here's a real, live example;

In a couple of weeks I will have to tell a client that a venture that he has put many millions of his personal cash into is not going to return what he has been led to believe, at least not in the timescales he had planned. This is because he was previously quite badly advised. 

Thankfully no jobs are at risk and he can afford it, but my point is that like anything you buy, quality of advice will vary ... and it may well be in the cases in your experience, the problems were unavoidable nomatter what advice was given. 

Can we get back to Saints chat please 

[Center Half]

On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 6:33 PM, sixties saintee said:

Fed up o aw the wingers and moaners going on wae there selves, we all know Broon is a tight wad, so instead of people sponcering shirts which I believe is around £ 300 if people matched that and put it into a fund for the sole purpose of paying a players wage help Tommy out and the club, quite happy to start it off instead of moaning and wingeing do something , or are you quite happy to slag Broon and do nothing, put your money where your mouth is.

Sorry for the diverse posts Sixties to take away from your original post, I agree in simple thinking/philosophy Shut up or Put Up! 

[Cagey]

Why don't we do what they did at Muirton 60 years ago. 4 ball boys walked round with a flag & we threw our small change into it.

[Abernethy Saint]

1 hour ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

If it's sitting on the balance sheet as cash, which I understand it to be from what people here have said, then that is literally what it is doing. 

 

At 1%? I could get more than that tomorrow. 

[Valentino Bolognese]

On £2m at zero risk? Over what period? Probably you could, I just pulled that out my arse as UK bond yields are about 0.5% and LIBOR is about 0.75%. At best though it's hard to beat inflation by much. (Germany is now in position where interest on cash is negative). 

Anyway the real point is returns on cash (and cash equivalents) are exceptionally low just now and in any case 'too much cash' is almost always a bad thing. 

By 'too much', I mean more than is reasonable to ensure that the business can remain viable for a period of time that the board deem to be acceptable, enough to cover loan covenants etc. 

Maybe £2m is what Saints need for their risk level. I have absolutely no idea. But I'm not giving them my own cash without something in return. 

Christ this is Saturday night and it feels like work.

 

[MySpazz]

On 8/9/2019 at 11:45 PM, Dave H said:

Who in their right mind would pay more cash simply to pay for one extra squad player? 

Its like an idea to stick an extra £300 onto a season ticket price so its £600+ so to get 1 more player in. 

Put your hand in your pocket you say, it's a non starter, it's like a chat in a pub after 8 pints!  Sure as hell not getting an extra £300 off me.

 

Agree that donations for wages are a bad idea, a slippery slope and not effective.

At some point the club could do a share emission (PLC), or a crowdfunder (lots of ways to make that work, the last thing would be to state season ticket prices, and also canvas for a donation, e.g. Season Tickets (With Donation) £400, Season Ticket (£300). 

Let those with a few bob, pay a bit more. Many would.  ....the mattresses are full of cash in Tory perth

 

[andrew]

3 hours ago, MySpazz said:

Agree that donations for wages are a bad idea, a slippery slope and not effective.

At some point the club could do a share emission (PLC), or a crowdfunder (lots of ways to make that work, the last thing would be to state season ticket prices, and also canvas for a donation, e.g. Season Tickets (With Donation) £400, Season Ticket (£300). 

Let those with a few bob, pay a bit more. Many would.  ....the mattresses are full of cash in Tory perth

 

You’re right enough, but, again, not while supposedly sitting on c£2m+!

[Dave Ferg]

A £2,000,000 "sinking fund" that would cover a couple of seasons top league wages in the Championship? 

Saints have a very difficult balancing act accommodating being over achievers paying good wages on longer contracts which could potentially end up in the scenario of paying under contract wages we can't afford off the back of relegation.