The big COVID-19 Shutdown


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45 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

They are at fault for piling restrictions onto already struggling businesses during an important time of year when faced with a variant that offers next to no threat to the population or NHS. England have shown this is the case as their cases spiral downwards in the exact same matters as every other country that's reported Omicron.

Deaths might be lower because of Omicron but cases are still high - its more transmissible than other variants and therefore although as a %age of the infected you're less likely to be in hospital because of the increased transmissibility the numbers in hospital will rise - thats why we've got the restrictions - its not complicated. Scotland has got off lightly this winter because we kept the mask restrictions etc - England and its NHS are in such a mess because they let the variant run wild with the corresponding impact on healthcare staff etc - thats why they have the big queues at A&E.

Businesses might be struggling but they've not been totally closed down - and the way things are going the likes of mask-wearing / table service will be the norm for a long time yet. Its not great but as an alternative to watching / risking family members lives its preferable.

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36 minutes ago, Abernethy Saint said:

How can you say Omicron is “next to no threat to the NHS”? That’s patently utter, utter nonsense. Do you have a TV?

Yeah, I've also got a computer. Handily it can tell me that, per head of the population, the current situation of people going to hospital solely for Covid is just slightly higher than we had for the flu 8 years ago. Folk need to remember we're not in the same situation as when this first started. Covid can no longer kill folk at will and the majority of vulnerable people are now more than protected due to the virus.

The majority of people are vaccinated yet we're still having our lives restricted for no discernable benefit. We've got worse infection rates than countries with no restrictions. How does that work? What's the actual benefit to refusing to allow more than 500 people to sit outside but allowing 200 people to sit inside an enclosed room?

It's just random, made up, bollocks at this point by people out of their depth.

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22 minutes ago, templeofsaints said:

Businesses might be struggling but they've not been totally closed down - and the way things are going the likes of mask-wearing / table service will be the norm for a long time yet. Its not great but as an alternative to watching / risking family members lives its preferable.

The issue is business in certain sectors get zero warning or guidance on things. Pubs get told to enforce social distancing and capacity measures, they didn't get told what's the safe social distancing distance for their size of building. They didn't get compensation for the business they'd lose. They didn't get told whether vaccine passports would be in use or not. They didn't get told if vaccine passports would change the social distancing rules.

Just a few days notice to complete adapt their business and premises.

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1 hour ago, RandomGuy said:

Yeah, I've also got a computer. Handily it can tell me that, per head of the population, the current situation of people going to hospital solely for Covid is just slightly higher than we had for the flu 8 years ago. Folk need to remember we're not in the same situation as when this first started. Covid can no longer kill folk at will and the majority of vulnerable people are now more than protected due to the virus.

The majority of people are vaccinated yet we're still having our lives restricted for no discernable benefit. We've got worse infection rates than countries with no restrictions. How does that work? What's the actual benefit to refusing to allow more than 500 people to sit outside but allowing 200 people to sit inside an enclosed room?

It's just random, made up, bollocks at this point by people out of their depth.

1/ Tell me specifically how your life was materially affected by the restrictions in the last 7 days.

 

2/ Please provide a list of countries with “no restrictions” at present.

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1 hour ago, RandomGuy said:

The issue is business in certain sectors get zero warning or guidance on things. Pubs get told to enforce social distancing and capacity measures, they didn't get told what's the safe social distancing distance for their size of building. They didn't get compensation for the business they'd lose. They didn't get told whether vaccine passports would be in use or not. They didn't get told if vaccine passports would change the social distancing rules.

Just a few days notice to complete adapt their business and premises.

Explain how you need to “completely adapt their business and premises” to introduce table service in a pub?

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16 hours ago, Evansabove said:

Yip they have and nothing to do with going to the toilets at McD . 
 

Well it only has something to do with the toilets at McD in as much as it's an example of one of the places where people aren't washing their hands. And football ground toilets in general often lack hot water and/or soap.

I honestly reckon about 50% of men don't wash their hands after going to the toilet, and that's *after* the lessons of a pandemic. I went to a gig at the start of December (first big indoor event I'd been to since Covid started) and while I was washing my hands in the loo, three or four men walked past behind me without bothering. They probably then went out and shook hands with other people, handled other people's drinks etc. It's manky. Absolutely manky.

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11 hours ago, blueheaven said:

Well it only has something to do with the toilets at McD in as much as it's an example of one of the places where people aren't washing their hands. And football ground toilets in general often lack hot water and/or soap.

 

The Gents at the town end of Muirton Park had hot running water in the 1950s. Well they did until the drain got clogged, usually during the half time rush.

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From behind the FT's paywall:

…. many lessons remain unlearnt. The first is that vaccines alone, though protective against severe disease and death, will not end the pandemic. They reduce transmission but they do not stop it. In addition, much of our interconnected world remains unvaccinated. Both factors enable ongoing spread, which risks creating variants, like Omicron, that can evade immunity.

…. we know the spread of this airborne virus can be slowed using measures such as masks, ventilation, remote working, testing and tracing, isolation, quarantine — and physical distancing where necessary. This ‘vaccine-plus’ approach is emphatically not ‘lockdown’ but rather a way to prevent it. 
That has not stopped some countries, such as England, going their own chaotic way. Johnson’s reluctance to introduce measures in the face of hyper-transmissible Omicron, despite expert advice, has left the NHS overwhelmed. Omicron might be less severe than Delta, but patients still need beds and staff. Hospitals, hit by record levels of Covid-related staff absences, are suspending normal services and declaring critical incidents; army medics are being drafted in.

Insufficient testing means losing sight of the virus. Countries, with unchecked spread, risk storing up uncertain future health burdens, including long Covid, nurturing new variants and being red-listed as no-go areas. Neither does mass infection protect against future waves of disease. Clearly, the only viable way of learning to live with Covid-19, even a milder form, is to live with a lot less of it.

Perhaps the last, somewhat obvious lesson, took me a long time to learn: that a pandemic is shaped not by a virus alone but by our collective response to it. We all came to this outbreak saddled with our prior hopes, beliefs, prejudices and fears. I never expected that, in the face of the worst pandemic for a century, so many of my fellow citizens would claim Covid-19 to be a hoax, reject safe and effective vaccines, spread conspiracy theories and make enemies of scientists, doctors and nurses.

…. that prompted me to engage with those who think differently, rather than to judge them. That is how I learnt that, for one thoughtful young adult of my acquaintance, rejecting the Covid jab was an act of political rebellion. For some, vaccine refusal is nothing to do with mistrusting science and everything to do with preserving personal agency in a crisis that has left many powerless. I would once have sympathised with Emmanuel Macron, resolving to “emmerder” the unvaccinated in response to record infection levels. Now, having queued gratefully for my third dose among those stepping forward for their first, I wonder if empathy might not help to end the pandemic sooner.  
 

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I still find the witch hunt against the unvaccinated rather unsavoury tbh and for the record I have been vaccinated and have had covid after being vaccinated.Surely it's a personal choice whether you decide to have it or not.A covid passport does not stop you from getting covid nor from you passing it on so wheres the scientific logic in it?Surely it's more of a personal responsibility to test yourself accordingly and wear a mask if you are concerned about contacting the virus.How many people do you see wearing masks at the football?Surely pre game testing and wearing masks at games would do more than covid passports to prevent the spread of covid?

Edited by saintee in exile
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1 hour ago, saintee in exile said:

I still find the witch hunt against the unvaccinated rather unsavoury tbh and for the record I have been vaccinated and have had covid after being vaccinated.Surely it's a personal choice whether you decide to have it or not.A covid passport does not stop you from getting covid nor from you passing it on so wheres the scientific logic in it?Surely it's more of a personal responsibility to test yourself accordingly and wear a mask if you are concerned about contacting the virus.How many people do you see wearing masks at the football?Surely pre game testing and wearing masks at games would do more than covid passports to prevent the spread of covid?

It has been my experience of life that an awful lot of people who are keen on personal choice are also not too keen on personal responsibility.  It has a bad habit of getting in the way of their personal choices.

So far as Covid is concerned I have found that experience very valid from conversations with family members who are nurses and their work colleagues.

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Over 200000 NHS workers have taken the personal decision not to have the vaccine so maybe they should be struck off going by your reckoning.Maybe the NHS should refuse to treat the unvaccinated,along with the smokers,the drinkers,the drug addicts,the obese.basically anyone deemed to have made the wrong personal choice for whatever reason whether misguided or not.Surely the NHS are there to treat people not judge them.

 

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14 hours ago, saintee in exile said:

I still find the witch hunt against the unvaccinated rather unsavoury tbh and for the record I have been vaccinated and have had covid after being vaccinated.Surely it's a personal choice whether you decide to have it or not.A covid passport does not stop you from getting covid nor from you passing it on so wheres the scientific logic in it?Surely it's more of a personal responsibility to test yourself accordingly and wear a mask if you are concerned about contacting the virus.How many people do you see wearing masks at the football?Surely pre game testing and wearing masks at games would do more than covid passports to prevent the spread of covid?

I'm not sure I've seen anything that could be described as a "witch hunt" to be honest, but in general I think the situation has parallels to smoking in public places prior to the smoking ban. People wanted their "personal choice" to smoke wherever they liked, but in doing so they took away the personal choice of those who didn't want to be surrounded by their smoke. Anti-vaxxers have the personal choice of staying unvaccinated, but if they go into busy public spaces they take away the personal choice of others who do not want the added risk of mixing with the unvaccinated.

As far as I can gather from the sea of mixed messaging and mis-information that is out there, being vaccinated doesn't 100% prevent you getting or spreading the vaccine, but it does reduce the chance of both and also reduces the likely severity of your illness if you get it. Tests aren't 100% reliable either and mask-wearing doesn't provide 100% protection. So there's no measure that will make everyone completely safe. But the more measures all of us take, the safer it'll be for everyone and the more chance we have of a return to normality.

Personal responsibility will only get us so far. It's not just about being concerned for your own health. If we want to protect people who are more vulnerable we need to think of others, too.

 

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3 hours ago, blueheaven said:

I'm not sure I've seen anything that could be described as a "witch hunt" to be honest, but in general I think the situation has parallels to smoking in public places prior to the smoking ban. People wanted their "personal choice" to smoke wherever they liked, but in doing so they took away the personal choice of those who didn't want to be surrounded by their smoke. Anti-vaxxers have the personal choice of staying unvaccinated, but if they go into busy public spaces they take away the personal choice of others who do not want the added risk of mixing with the unvaccinated.

As far as I can gather from the sea of mixed messaging and mis-information that is out there, being vaccinated doesn't 100% prevent you getting or spreading the vaccine, but it does reduce the chance of both and also reduces the likely severity of your illness if you get it. Tests aren't 100% reliable either and mask-wearing doesn't provide 100% protection. So there's no measure that will make everyone completely safe. But the more measures all of us take, the safer it'll be for everyone and the more chance we have of a return to normality.

Personal responsibility will only get us so far. It's not just about being concerned for your own health. If we want to protect people who are more vulnerable we need to think of others, too.

 

Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with alot of what you've said, what I would say is that there is a definite witch-hunt and I've seen many attacks on those that choose not to be vaccinated both online and in person. Even the media have had to backtrack on supposed data and facts that simply were not true.

What I personally find frustrating is why should Covid-19 and a person's choice to be vaccinated be treated any differently to the other choices people make that put a strain on the health system?

One of the single biggest expenses pre-covid for the NHS is Diabetes Type 2 treatment. That expense takes away funds and beds for those that may come upon hard times and need medical help. What about those that are over weight (or obese) or those that smoke, over indulge in alcohol? Studies show these ones have multiple times more chance of having things such as cancers, strokes and heart issues. These choices again put a strain on the NHS.

Add to the fact better health markers in a population lead to less severe cases of Covid-19.

Compare a fit and healthy male in his 20s, with good cardiovascular health, a good immune system and healthy habits that is unvaccinated to a fully vaccinated obese person, that engages in no exercise, has poor habits and terrible health markers. Whilst either person could end up in hospital, I know who my money would be on to be more likely to end up taking up a bed in the local hospital.

That's not to mention the 100s of other issues that arise with lockdowns and those measures.

I believe all these things need to be weighed up and questioning things or being willing to listen to different sides of arguments is important when it comes to Covid 19 treatments and health in general.

 

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28 minutes ago, SlickDT said:

Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with alot of what you've said, what I would say is that there is a definite witch-hunt and I've seen many attacks on those that choose not to be vaccinated both online and in person. Even the media have had to backtrack on supposed data and facts that simply were not true.

I haven't seen that but of course that's not OK. I know of two people who were abused in the street for wearing masks (two separate incidents), so I guess it's happening both ways. Totally unacceptable either way.

 

28 minutes ago, SlickDT said:

What I personally find frustrating is why should Covid-19 and a person's choice to be vaccinated be treated any differently to the other choices people make that put a strain on the health system?

One of the single biggest expenses pre-covid for the NHS is Diabetes Type 2 treatment. That expense takes away funds and beds for those that may come upon hard times and need medical help. What about those that are over weight (or obese) or those that smoke, over indulge in alcohol? Studies show these ones have multiple times more chance of having things such as cancers, strokes and heart issues. These choices again put a strain on the NHS.

Add to the fact better health markers in a population lead to less severe cases of Covid-19.

Compare a fit and healthy male in his 20s, with good cardiovascular health, a good immune system and healthy habits that is unvaccinated to a fully vaccinated obese person, that engages in no exercise, has poor habits and terrible health markers. Whilst either person could end up in hospital, I know who my money would be on to be more likely to end up taking up a bed in the local hospital.

That's not to mention the 100s of other issues that arise with lockdowns and those measures.

I believe all these things need to be weighed up and questioning things or being willing to listen to different sides of arguments is important when it comes to Covid 19 treatments and health in general.

 

Is it being treated differently? As far as I'm aware anyone who has a health issue has the same right to be treated on the NHS, whether that's because they're an unvaccinated Covid patient, an alcoholic, a smoker, a person with weight issues, etc etc. There are a helluva lot of health issues out there that could be argued to be self-inflicted in one way or another (a footballer breaking his leg, for example, could have avoided that leg break by taking up a less dangerous sport/hobby).

 

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Well said Slick DT its a shame that people can no longer debate things like this with an open mind and i think it`s a very dangerous road to go down.The unvaccinated have 100% been vilified by society almost to the point where you would think it was them that were to blame for the whole pandemic.God only knows what this pandemic and its lockdowns have done to peoples mental health, its not exactly something that will ever be quantified with the much beloved data.

`but if they go into busy public spaces they take away the personal choice of others who do not want the added risk of mixing with the unvaccinated.` and what percentage extra risk is there of mixing with unvaccinated people if you yourself have had three vaccines and you are  wearing a mask, can you tell me that?... is it greater than an unvaccinated doctor treating a vulnerable patient? Is it greater than going to a club with a covid passport whilst you are unknowingly  pre symptomatic? Or going to a football match where  shouting and singing  without a mask is ok as long as you have a covid passport.Its not so much a case of follow the science but more a case of do want i tell you whether it makes sense or not

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43 minutes ago, blueheaven said:

I haven't seen that but of course that's not OK. I know of two people who were abused in the street for wearing masks (two separate incidents), so I guess it's happening both ways. Totally unacceptable either way.

 

Is it being treated differently? As far as I'm aware anyone who has a health issue has the same right to be treated on the NHS, whether that's because they're an unvaccinated Covid patient, an alcoholic, a smoker, a person with weight issues, etc etc. There are a helluva lot of health issues out there that could be argued to be self-inflicted in one way or another (a footballer breaking his leg, for example, could have avoided that leg break by taking up a less dangerous sport/hobby).

 

Agreed, abuse from any side is wrong. I think people have the right to protest peacefully if they believe lockdowns, etc do more harm than good, but if you use that event to throw bottles at a policeman or riot then I think your an idiot. You also have no right to intimidate anyone on their way to having a vaccine. Ultimately I think everyone should have free will to decide if they want to partake in a treatment that has been pushed through at a speed we have never seen before. They should also be able to weigh up their own circumstances, look at the data and decide if they believe the risk to reward ratio works for or against the vaccine (or any other medical treatment).

I've heard many a radio show/TV show where panelists/callers have publicly called for those unvaccinated not to be allowed to use NHS services. Never seen that debated with any other subject. Certain countries are now taxing or giving fines to those that do not take the vaccine. That's a very slippery road to go down. It's one that I hope we don't see locally, as your ultimately taking the freedom away to decide on your own health. Where does that stop?

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