Pat McGroin Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 Statistically the worst keeper in the league. Has been dire now for 18 months. Can’t remember the last time he won us a game. Surely it’s time for a new keeper. Right now I’d play Parish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rik2304 Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 Parish is not much better. Neither are worthy of a place at the moment. I seriously question the coaching as Mathers was not exactly amazing himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat McGroin Posted October 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, rik2304 said: Parish is not much better. Neither are worthy of a place at the moment. I seriously question the coaching as Mathers was not exactly amazing himself. I know, I have zero faith in either of them but statistically Parish has done more this term and could rightly feel aggrieved to be dropped! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MySpazz Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 Someone call Jody Morris....they want Kepa out.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Pat McGroin said: Statistically the worst keeper in the league. Has been dire now for 18 months. Can’t remember the last time he won us a game. Surely it’s time for a new keeper. Right now I’d play Parish You can't judge players until they've played a certain amount of minutes (800-1000 seems fairest). Can argue he's carried over last seasons form though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cagey Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 2 hours ago, rik2304 said: Parish is not much better. Neither are worthy of a place at the moment. I seriously question the coaching as Mathers was not exactly amazing himself. It looks to me like it could be coaching. I have said that for a while now. Sander had a good season with QoS & came back to us & had a good couple of seasons & I was touting him for Scotland. Unfortunately things have gone downhill since then. Don't remember when Mather's came in but there could be a link. Still better than Parish though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE LARK SAINT Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 3 games ffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy Jenkins Posted October 21, 2020 Report Share Posted October 21, 2020 More to the point how many goals can you actually truly fault him for? A couple fall into the might of done better but again recently returned from an injury that has seen him miss most of preseason. Made a couple of saves at the weekend at pivotal times. Ones he should be expecting to make maybe, but he made them It's also worth noting this is quality and quantity of saves and the top 3 keepers one plays for st mirren and one Hamilton. So I would suggest they are probably facing more shots which ups the number. Also who looked the better keeper last Saturday? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat McGroin Posted October 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 8 hours ago, THE LARK SAINT said: 3 games ffs 18 months Larky. He was propping up the keepers table all last season too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueheaven Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 Those stats make no sense to me. Who judges the "quality" of a save? And how can you record "goals saved"? I don't even know what a "goal saved" is. Either it's a save, or it's a goal. You can't save a goal. south inch, Shaggy Jenkins, Bruno Strasser and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abernethy Saint Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 18 minutes ago, blueheaven said: Those stats make no sense to me. Who judges the "quality" of a save? And how can you record "goals saved"? I don't even know what a "goal saved" is. Either it's a save, or it's a goal. You can't save a goal. I can’t make heads nor tails out of that graph. Can’t remember any real howlers this season. An average top-league goalie, which will do. I presume, having scored 12 in the last two games, the goalie is the only one left to slag off this week. Tranmere Saintee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linky Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 If a defence is really good, surely the 'keeper has fewer saves to make? Clark is on a decent contract. He'll stay as number 1 until he retires. Also, the idea that Ryan Fulton is better than Alan McGregor is a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 46 minutes ago, blueheaven said: Those stats make no sense to me. Who judges the "quality" of a save? And how can you record "goals saved"? I don't even know what a "goal saved" is. Either it's a save, or it's a goal. You can't save a goal. I think its based on xG and averages over the past couple of seasons. So if the average keeper is saving chances worth 0.16, but Clark isn't, then he gets deducted points. I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cagey Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Abernethy Saint said: I can’t make heads nor tails out of that graph. Can’t remember any real howlers this season. An average top-league goalie, which will do. I presume, having scored 12 in the last two games, the goalie is the only one left to slag off this week. I wonder what Pickford & De Gea's charts are like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBored Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 While I agree he hasn't been as good last season, I don't see him as being a bombscare. Yes there were a few goals last season where he didn't cover himself in glory but then for quite a bit of last season he had a pretty hopeless defence in front of him. That would affect any keepers confidence etc. I have no problem with him being no 1. Does seem nowadays that we are quick to have a go at the players....Conway was shite...had a good couple of games and now he's ok. May was finished at this level....now he's back scoring all is good. Tanser was poor...now he's good in a back five type operation...now its Clark's turn....just the way it seems to me. blueheaven and garydavidson 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat McGroin Posted October 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Cagey said: I wonder what Pickford & De Gea's charts are like. Pickford wee arms! De Gea has been Mr Howler for years too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radford 72 Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 10 hours ago, blueheaven said: Those stats make no sense to me. Who judges the "quality" of a save? And how can you record "goals saved"? I don't even know what a "goal saved" is. Either it's a save, or it's a goal. You can't save a goal. Analysts have built up huge databases of shot locations and outcomes in the Scottish Premiership and similar leagues dating back over years. If a right-footed shot is taken by a right-footed player under pressure and with two defenders between him and the goal, they will have every outcome from the hundreds or thousands of times this has happened. This means they can attribute a likely percentage of a goal being scored (xG) or the shot being saved (xSv). If a goalkeeper saves a shot that has a more than x% chance of being scored historically, then that would be regarded as a goal saved by the average goalkeeper for a league of the Premiership's standing. For the last 18 months, these numbers routinely show that Clark concedes goals that extensive data suggests the average goalkeeper would save. And, in my opinion, that backs up exactly what I'm seeing with my own eyes. Pat McGroin and rik2304 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
south inch Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 Don't understand these figures so picked an easy one to look at - Bain of Celtic. He rates badly with a minus score. He played one game for Celtic, their 5 - 1 win over Hamilton. The BBC stats show Hamilton had one shot at goal which was heading for the left hand corner until it took a deflection off Jullien and ended up in the right hand corner. Despite the deflection Bain almost got a hand to the ball. For this he gets a minus .727 rating ?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat McGroin Posted October 22, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Radford 72 said: Analysts have built up huge databases of shot locations and outcomes in the Scottish Premiership and similar leagues dating back over years. If a right-footed shot is taken by a right-footed player under pressure and with two defenders between him and the goal, they will have every outcome from the hundreds or thousands of times this has happened. This means they can attribute a likely percentage of a goal being scored (xG) or the shot being saved (xG). If a goalkeeper saves a shot that has a more than x% of being scored historically, then that would be regarded as a goal saved by the average goalkeeper for a league of the Premiership's standing. For the last 18 months, these numbers routinely show that Clark concedes goals that extensive data suggests the average goalkeeper would save. And, in my opinion, that backs up exactly what I'm seeing with my own eyes. I actually think it’s affecting how teams set up against us too. Teams seem very willing to take pot shots from distance and that’s likely due to them analysing similar data and realising Zander is just not saving what he should be saving so they’re getting a return way above average. I also wonder how much of it is coaching, as he’s gone from being perfectly capable, to shaky at corners, to just generally dodgy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintgscot Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat McGroin Posted October 23, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2020 7 hours ago, saintgscot said: Excuse me if I don’t hold too much faith in a site that claims Zander is 34! What’s the reference with those stats? I’m struggling to see games played etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_gain Posted October 23, 2020 Report Share Posted October 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Pat McGroin said: I’m struggling to see games played etc. This is evident! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintgscot Posted October 23, 2020 Report Share Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Pat McGroin said: Excuse me if I don’t hold too much faith in a site that claims Zander is 34! What’s the reference with those stats? I’m struggling to see games played etc. That does not say Zander is 34 it says appearances 34 from two seasons ago I believe. 34 appearances 15 clean sheets equal best goalkeeper in the league. Edited October 23, 2020 by saintgscot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radford 72 Posted October 23, 2020 Report Share Posted October 23, 2020 Nobody would claim that Clark wasn't compotent enough a few seasons ago but I struggle to grasp that there can still be supporters that feel comfortable with him in nets for us. This thread isn't about the goalkeeper he used to be. If the argument is that he can return to that level then hopefully he'll start showing it soon as it has been 18 months of poor performances. Right back to the start of last pre-season in Ireland, he had errors against Glentoran and Linfield and then carried it into the Celtic game. It's as if he's never recovered and the nadir had to be that spell in spring where he lost that goal against Motherwell and then had a performance for the ages in the closing stages at Ross County, flapping at everything and looking like he'd never seen a football before. Like most, I'd like nothing more than Clark to do well for us and I think that's shown by how little disquiet there has been about such an extended period of poor form but eventually something was going to need said and the dissenting voices would grow. No matter how popular someone is, you can't afford to carry someone in such a key position. Hopefully his recovery and a return to the player we had a few seasons ago starts tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rik2304 Posted October 23, 2020 Report Share Posted October 23, 2020 You don't need stats,(although I believe the data). Just use your eyes. He's a different keeper. Is it the coaching? Lost confidence after some injuries? Poor competition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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