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Pat McGroin

Zander

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13 minutes ago, mainstand said:

Clark is a keeper who has went through a bad patch to say he is a poor keeper is about as daft a statement as you have made ina long time and there have been a few.

How many poor seasons in a row will he need to have before he's officially poor?

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14 minutes ago, mainstand said:

Clark is a keeper who has went through a bad patch to say he is a poor keeper is about as daft a statement as you have made ina long time and there have been a few.

He played well today but how long do you give a keeper? It’s been a year. 
 

I can’t help but feel he’s not the most agile keeper, and when he’s marooned on his line, he’s a sitting duck. 
 

when he commands his box like today, it’s a different story but that has been a LONG time coming. 

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21 minutes ago, mainstand said:

Clark is a keeper who has went through a bad patch to say he is a poor keeper is about as daft a statement as you have made ina long time and there have been a few.

He's arguably the worst keeper in the league.

Of the starting keepers the only one you could argue is worse is Laidlaw at County, and Fulton at Hamilton.

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17 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

He's arguably the worst keeper in the league.

Of the starting keepers the only one you could argue is worse is Laidlaw at County, and Fulton at Hamilton.

We will agree to differ. Not like you to go OTT 

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23 minutes ago, andrew said:

I agree with Randoom and Radford.

That is up to you,  likewise I will keep my view that he is not a bad keeper. 

In answer to the question how long do u Let it go I would say you review it at the end the season. 

Thought today he showed signs of Zander of old more commanding in his box. 

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3 hours ago, mainstand said:

Thought today he showed signs of Zander of old more commanding in his box. 

I’ll agree with that. I could hardly believe what I was seeing today. Good on him for that but he has a long way to go to improve our extremely poor stats on a goalkeeper conceding the highest number of goals as a % of shots on all keepers in the league. That’s a stat that can’t be argued with. The defence have limited the opposition’s chances but still 1 in every 2 shots results in a goal.

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1 hour ago, andrew said:

I’ll agree with that. I could hardly believe what I was seeing today. Good on him for that but he has a long way to go to improve our extremely poor stats on a goalkeeper conceding the highest number of goals as a % of shots on all keepers in the league. That’s a stat that can’t be argued with. The defence have limited the opposition’s chances but still 1 in every 2 shots results in a goal.

How are these stats collated,when there’s no one allowed in the grounds?

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No stats on defenders, midfielders, miscues, crosses defended, weather, missed chances, striker shots on target vs attempts, missed sitters, poor marking, angle and power of shot, swerve of ball, 'should have shot' instead of pass, sun glare .... ya di da

Just this 'indisputable' stat on goalies, but not any other factors that create the overall team / player performance that impacts keeper performance and confidence in their back line. 

Our own manager, who spends hours upon hours with Zander, says he's the guy, so should CD be fired for being so stupid as he can't read these stats and not switch him? If Zander had the best stats in the league, but two terrible games on the trot, with dozens of errors, and same in practice, would stats matter to the manager or any of us? 

Players confidence is crucial ... great boost all round today...so lets keep witch hunting Zander, who looked confident and didn't put a foot wrong. 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, RandomGuy said:

He's arguably the worst keeper in the league.

Of the starting keepers the only one you could argue is worse is Laidlaw at County, and Fulton at Hamilton.

Joe lewis looked shite today....but can't drop him below zander as it doesn't fit the stat rhetoric. 

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2 hours ago, Cleveland-Saint said:

No stats on defenders, midfielders, miscues, crosses defended, weather, missed chances, striker shots on target vs attempts, missed sitters, poor marking, angle and power of shot, swerve of ball, 'should have shot' instead of pass, sun glare .... ya di da

Just this 'indisputable' stat on goalies, but not any other factors that create the overall team / player performance that impacts keeper performance and confidence in their back line. 

Our own manager, who spends hours upon hours with Zander, says he's the guy, so should CD be fired for being so stupid as he can't read these stats and not switch him? If Zander had the best stats in the league, but two terrible games on the trot, with dozens of errors, and same in practice, would stats matter to the manager or any of us? 

Players confidence is crucial ... great boost all round today...so lets keep witch hunting Zander, who looked confident and didn't put a foot wrong. 

 

 

 

I don't need stats. I've got eyes.

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3 hours ago, Cleveland-Saint said:

Joe lewis looked shite today....but can't drop him below zander as it doesn't fit the stat rhetoric. 

Lewis has been one of the best keepers in the league for the last 4 years.

Clark has been chucking in goals for the past 2 seasons.

Are people forgetting him fluffing a cross away to St Mirren last season and them scoring from it, conceding from about 40 yards v Livingston when it was straight at him, conceding from 30 yards v Motherwell when the shot was paceless and right at him, fluffing a cross v County and them scoring from it?

That's all things that instantly come to mind from before this season. This season he's conceded every 2 shots, and that's overall shots, not shots on target. 

He fails both the stats test, and the eye test.

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Zander had a decent game yesterday & seemed happier to leave his line but he didn't have a save to make so don't let us get carried away.

Hopefully he has turned the corner & we no longer have to criticize him.

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59 minutes ago, Cagey said:

I don't need stats. I've got eyes.

This is what gets me. Folk can argue with the stats (and these aren't advanced metrics, they are very simple: basically shots on target minus goals conceded) but are they not watching the guy? 

It annoys me that people are saying he's a hate figure or whatever. For a long time, people have kept quiet and backed him, keeping reservations to themselves. But this is 18 months now of poor form, eventually the patience is going to break. 

Saying we shouldn't criticise him until the summer because he's here until then whatever is fair enough I suppose but trying to claim he's not playing poorly, I just find that bizarre from anyone that actually watches a lot of the team in action.

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It's the same stuff whenever a player is criticised. Need a hate figure, all players in that position are criticised by our dreadful fans etc... 

The irony is that the very people trying to dispute black and white evidence are the ones fabricating claims like above. 

Alan Mannus did have a dip in form in his Saints career and was replaced by Zander Clark, as should happen when a player isn't performing well or to standards set. What happened was that Mannus raised his game and won the shirt back, after which both goalkeepers seemed to bring the best out of each other.

Without going back over the whole thread, I'd suggest virtually all the posts being critical of Clark set out the reasons why. Maybe, instead of just criticising those making the posts and endulging in whataboutery, those backing the goalkeeper could make the case for why he's, in their eyes, playing to an acceptable standard and is above criticism. Anyone? 

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10 hours ago, dave mc said:

How are these stats collated,when there’s no one allowed in the grounds?

These stats that's are produced by BBc and other are pure mince in my view. Since when have we judged goalies on percentage saves :?:  I do wonder where some of our favourite goalies of years gone by would stand if we had all these stats available. 

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Yet more whataboutery. Its not that Clark is poor, it's that the stats are "pure mince" obviously. Imagine wanting to judge a goalkeeper on his ability to save shots! Alien stuff! 

Unfortunately, those who aren't predispositioned to defend everything also have eyes. 

Amazingly enough, I suspect Mannus, Main etc... would rank highly because they were good goalkeepers. That's kind of the way it works. 

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22 minutes ago, mainstand said:

These stats that's are produced by BBc and other are pure mince in my view. Since when have we judged goalies on percentage saves :?:  I do wonder where some of our favourite goalies of years gone by would stand if we had all these stats available. 

I can go back to 2015/16 to see how Mannus compares against Clark in terms of how many shots it takes to score into them...

983956827_gkwap.thumb.png.fde539c8a8cec88c0cb5df55c48c8f93.png

 

Mannus poor in 15/16 so Clark got his chance 16/17.  Mannus dips in 17/18 and leaves, Clark responds by improving in 18/19.

Since then Clark has declined pretty heavily.

That corresponds with what I've watched, does it not with you?

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16 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

I can go back to 2015/16 to see how Mannus compares against Clark in terms of how many shots it takes to score into them...

983956827_gkwap.thumb.png.fde539c8a8cec88c0cb5df55c48c8f93.png

 

Mannus poor in 15/16 so Clark got his chance 16/17.  Mannus dips in 17/18 and leaves, Clark responds by improving in 18/19.

Since then Clark has declined pretty heavily.

That corresponds with what I've watched, does it not with you?

FFS Random,get a life.

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10 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

I can go back to 2015/16 to see how Mannus compares against Clark in terms of how many shots it takes to score into them...

983956827_gkwap.thumb.png.fde539c8a8cec88c0cb5df55c48c8f93.png

 

Mannus poor in 15/16 so Clark got his chance 16/17.  Mannus dips in 17/18 and leaves, Clark responds by improving in 18/19.

Since then Clark has declined pretty heavily.

That corresponds with what I've watched, does it not with you?

Definitely, and its magnified this season if the defence limit shots from the opposition to two and one of them goes in. This is compounded by our profligacy up front and means we lose the game and struggle near the bottom of the league in perilous times.

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26 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

I can go back to 2015/16 to see how Mannus compares against Clark in terms of how many shots it takes to score into them...

983956827_gkwap.thumb.png.fde539c8a8cec88c0cb5df55c48c8f93.png

 

Mannus poor in 15/16 so Clark got his chance 16/17.  Mannus dips in 17/18 and leaves, Clark responds by improving in 18/19.

Since then Clark has declined pretty heavily.

That corresponds with what I've watched, does it not with you?

Lies lies damned lies and statistics.

Your stats are great but in my view mean SFA. 

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