B teams again


Tranmere Saintee
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1 hour ago, Abernethy Saint said:

Better-quality discards from Rangers and Celtic.

A better national team.

A better Euro co-efficient.

Higher attendances at lower league games.

All arguable, but the other clubs haven’t all suddenly gone “naive”: they must see the potential.

1. The discards are likely to be disillusioned after getting constantly kicked all over the park.

2. How?
 

3. How?

4. Irn Bru cup had most clubs lowest attendance figures against colt teams.

On top of it they will take even more kids on depriving other clubs of their share. Hopefully common sense will prevail and it will yet again be kicked out along with the Super League they throw into the mix every couple of years.

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If you’re right, and the young starlets get kicked off the park, with no other benefits, then the experiment would come to an early end, so your problem would be solved.

The point of this, as has been admitted on this thread, is to increase the quality of Scots players available to the Bum Cheeks. If that works, the quality of the national side, and performances in Europe, should improve. Obviously that’s not guaranteed. Nothing in football is.

On attendances, you can’t have it both ways. Either this turns the lower leagues into highly competitive Rangers v Celtic shitfests, as claimed in this thread, in which case hoards of lowlifes will turn up to bawl hate at each other and at the good citizens of Auchinshuggly caught in the middle, or the teams will be rubbish and sink without trace in empty stadiums. Which is it? 

The Irn Bru analogy is a false one because only one bum cheek was in it. An Irn Bru Cup Final or even Semi-Final between Rangers and Celtic B Teams would fill Hampden several times over. Back in the day, Rangers v Celtic reserve league/ Glasgow Cup matches routinely attracted huge crowds - bigger than any non-OF team could attract in the league proper. There are hundreds of thousands of bum cheek fans all across Scotland who cannot get into Ibrox or Parkhead, and who have to enter lotteries even to get into away games in much smaller stadiums. A vast untapped market willing to buy (much, much cheaper) tickets and pies. 

By the way, it’s by no means a given this will be voted through. It has failed on numerous precious occasions.

Edited by Abernethy Saint
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3 minutes ago, Abernethy Saint said:

If you’re right, and the young starlets get kicked off the park, with no other benefits, then the experiment would come to an early end, so your problem would be solved.

The point of this, as has been admitted on this thread, is to increase the quality of Scots players available to the Bum Cheeks. If that works, the quality of the national side, and performances in Europe, should improve. Obviously that’s not guaranteed. Nothing in football is.

On attendances, you can’t have it both ways. Either this turns the lower leagues into highly competitive Rangers v Celtic shitfests, as claimed in this thread, in which case hoards of lowlifes will turn up to bawl hate at each other and at the good citizens of Auchinshuggly caught in the middle, or the teams will be rubbish and sink without trace in empty stadiums. Which is it? 

The Irn Bru analogy is a false one because only one bum cheek was in it. An Irn Bru Cup Final or even Semi-Finalbetween Rangers and Celtic B Teams would fill Hampden several times over. Back in the day, Rangers v Celtic reserve league/ Glasgow Cup matches routinely attracted guge crowds - bigger than any non-OF team could attract in the league proper. There are hundreds of thousands of bum cheek fans all across Scotland who cannot get into Ibrox or Parkhead, and who have to enter lotteries even to get into away games in much smaller stadiums. A vast untapped market willing to buy (much, much cheaper) tickets and pies. 

By the way, it’s by no means a given this will be voted through. It has failed on numerous precious occasions.

You have just highlighted all the reasons it shouldn't go through.

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1 hour ago, Abernethy Saint said:

If you’re right, and the young starlets get kicked off the park, with no other benefits, then the experiment would come to an early end, so your problem would be solved.

Not convinced about that. Once this change is put in place I think it'll be very, very difficult to reverse it.

 

1 hour ago, Abernethy Saint said:

The point of this, as has been admitted on this thread, is to increase the quality of Scots players available to the Bum Cheeks. If that works, the quality of the national side, and performances in Europe, should improve. Obviously that’s not guaranteed. Nothing in football is.

Even if this was true - and I'd be very sceptical of that (what evidence is there that a B-team structure results in better players?) - why should Stirling Albion, Elgin, Montrose etc care about the national side or other teams' performances in Europe? It sounds a lot like those clubs are being asked to move to an inferior league structure entirely for the benefit of other teams who already have the biggest supports and the most advantages.

 

1 hour ago, Abernethy Saint said:

On attendances, you can’t have it both ways. Either this turns the lower leagues into highly competitive Rangers v Celtic shitfests, as claimed in this thread, in which case hoards of lowlifes will turn up to bawl hate at each other and at the good citizens of Auchinshuggly caught in the middle, or the teams will be rubbish and sink without trace in empty stadiums. Which is it? 

The Irn Bru analogy is a false one because only one bum cheek was in it. An Irn Bru Cup Final or even Semi-Final between Rangers and Celtic B Teams would fill Hampden several times over. Back in the day, Rangers v Celtic reserve league/ Glasgow Cup matches routinely attracted huge crowds - bigger than any non-OF team could attract in the league proper. There are hundreds of thousands of bum cheek fans all across Scotland who cannot get into Ibrox or Parkhead, and who have to enter lotteries even to get into away games in much smaller stadiums. A vast untapped market willing to buy (much, much cheaper) tickets and pies. 

This all sounds horrific and is exactly what Scottish football needs to move further away from, not closer towards.

 

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If Celtic and Rangers starlets are getting kicked off the park, with no other compensating benefits, they themselves will withdraw from the arrangement. There won’t need to be a vote.

Success in Europe and at national level brings shedloads of money to the national associations and thence to the clubs. And Scottish club chairman are also generally Scottish fans. Why wouldn’t they want success?

Aye, everyone says they hate the sectarian stuff. Me more than most. But we all turn on and watch it, right?

 

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4 hours ago, Abernethy Saint said:

Better-quality discards from Rangers and Celtic.

A better national team.

A better Euro co-efficient.

Higher attendances at lower league games.

All arguable, but the other clubs haven’t all suddenly gone “naive”: they must see the potential.

Rangers & Celtic don't care about the national team. They don't care about the kids. They don't care about their fans who are just a cash cow.

Rangers & Celtic only care about the OF.

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On 3/17/2021 at 4:49 PM, Cagey said:

Can't believe the clubs would vote for something that will only make the difference between OF & the rest massive ,for the sake of £20 grand a year for the smaller teams who will then be stuck in the lower leagues for life.

Typical Tory attitude, trying to buy votes.

 

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18 hours ago, Abernethy Saint said:

If Celtic and Rangers starlets are getting kicked off the park, with no other compensating benefits, they themselves will withdraw from the arrangement. There won’t need to be a vote.

Success in Europe and at national level brings shedloads of money to the national associations and thence to the clubs. And Scottish club chairman are also generally Scottish fans. Why wouldn’t they want success?

Aye, everyone says they hate the sectarian stuff. Me more than most. But we all turn on and watch it, right?

 

Perhaps they'd withdraw, but I think the situation would need to have reached a pretty extreme stage for them to take that action. If it did reach that stage I think it's more likely that measures would be introduced to give those young players more protection. As others have said, putting Colt sides into the league set-up is part of a long-term strategy for the Old Firm and it's not being done solely for youth development. After taking years to get to push this through they're not just going to withdraw because a few young players get fouled.

I'm not convinced League One and Two sides get "shedloads" of money out of national team/European success, but I'm open to being proven wrong on that. How much money really filters down to that level? I think in practice it makes very little difference for them. When the Old Firm do well in Europe, the main beneficiaries of that are the Old Firm. And yes, the chairmen of the lower league clubs probably do want to see Scotland doing well, but do they want to see that to the extent that they're willing to potentially damage their own clubs? I'm sceptical about that.

On your last point - I don't turn on and watch it, personally. I don't think I've ever sat down and watched an Old Firm game in my life. I acknowledge that's probably just me though.

 

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3 hours ago, blueheaven said:

Perhaps they'd withdraw, but I think the situation would need to have reached a pretty extreme stage for them to take that action. If it did reach that stage I think it's more likely that measures would be introduced to give those young players more protection. As others have said, putting Colt sides into the league set-up is part of a long-term strategy for the Old Firm and it's not being done solely for youth development. After taking years to get to push this through they're not just going to withdraw because a few young players get fouled.

I'm not convinced League One and Two sides get "shedloads" of money out of national team/European success, but I'm open to being proven wrong on that. How much money really filters down to that level? I think in practice it makes very little difference for them. When the Old Firm do well in Europe, the main beneficiaries of that are the Old Firm. And yes, the chairmen of the lower league clubs probably do want to see Scotland doing well, but do they want to see that to the extent that they're willing to potentially damage their own clubs? I'm sceptical about that.

On your last point - I don't turn on and watch it, personally. I don't think I've ever sat down and watched an Old Firm game in my life. I acknowledge that's probably just me though.

 

The point is, they will end the arrangement themselves if it’s not working for them. I’m intrigued as to what you think the “other measures” could be!

The League and the SFA don’t keep large cash reserves. What they get, they spend. On the clubs. Because they are comprised of the clubs. Sometimes in cash (bigger prize money) but more often in wider improvements. The SFA coaching scheme is a genuine success story, with coaches coming from all over Europe to take part. It, and other initiatives, was initially financed by the cash received when we used to qualify for things.

i think most non-OF fans watch OF games for the same reason non- motor sport fans sometimes watch F1 races - watching cars drive round in circles isn’t that interesting, but there’s always the chance of a good crash......

Anyway, we’ll see what happens. Apparently, I need to see to the garden.

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12 minutes ago, Abernethy Saint said:

The point is, they will end the arrangement themselves if it’s not working for them. I’m intrigued as to what you think the “other measures” could be!

The League and the SFA don’t keep large cash reserves. What they get, they spend. On the clubs. Because they are comprised of the clubs. Sometimes in cash (bigger prize money) but more often in wider improvements. The SFA coaching scheme is a genuine success story, with coaches coming from all over Europe to take part. It, and other initiatives, was initially financed by the cash received when we used to qualify for things.

i think most non-OF fans watch OF games for the same reason non- motor sport fans sometimes watch F1 races - watching cars drive round in circles isn’t that interesting, but there’s always the chance of a good crash......

Anyway, we’ll see what happens. Apparently, I need to see to the garden.

Where is the proof that the SFA coaching  scheme is a great success?.

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2 hours ago, Cagey said:

I don't see too many young players in Scotland team & under 21s are not competing too well in tournaments.

The coaching scheme is to coach coaches, not players, ya diddy. :mrgreen: When you see “so and so got his badges” that’s how they get them. Folk come from all over to get them in Scotland, and to go on advanced courses, seminars etc, because they have a very good reputation. 

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1 minute ago, Abernethy Saint said:

The coaching scheme is to coach coaches, not players, ya diddy. :mrgreen: When you see “so and so got his badges” that’s how they get them. Folk come from all over to get them in Scotland, and to go on advanced courses, seminars etc, because they have a very good reputation. 

And why are those coaches coached ?.

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23 hours ago, Abernethy Saint said:

The point is, they will end the arrangement themselves if it’s not working for them. I’m intrigued as to what you think the “other measures” could be!

For the most part I think it would come in the form of greater protection from referees.

What I think says a lot here, though, is the assumption that the Old Firm clubs can end the arrangement if it's not working for them, but the other club's can't. If Montrose and Elgin realise three years in that it's rubbish, they're stuck with it. If Rangers and Celtic decide that it's rubbish, they can walk away. So it's the creation of yet another scenario within Scottish football where the OF hold all the power and all the cards.

 

23 hours ago, Abernethy Saint said:

The League and the SFA don’t keep large cash reserves. What they get, they spend. On the clubs. Because they are comprised of the clubs. Sometimes in cash (bigger prize money) but more often in wider improvements. The SFA coaching scheme is a genuine success story, with coaches coming from all over Europe to take part. It, and other initiatives, was initially financed by the cash received when we used to qualify for things.

I wouldn't doubt any of that. What I would doubt is that success for the Scotland team and/or Scottish teams in Europe = any significant amount of money dripping down to the lower leagues. When the OF succeed in Europe there may be a few fringe benefits for clubs like Saints in the form of the occasional extra European place, but the main thing that's really happening is that the two clubs at the top are able to get richer and bigger and increase the gap between themselves and everyone else. The more successful the OF are, the more money they have and the more attractive they are to glory-hunters all over the country who could otherwise be supporting their local clubs. Increase the OF presence in the lower leagues and you could easily end up harming the fanbases of those clubs even further.

I'm really, really struggling here to see a single demonstrable positive in any of this. And I've always been of the view that non-OF fans should not add viewing figures to OF matches and should not back the OF in Europe.

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On 3/18/2021 at 1:05 PM, Abernethy Saint said:

An Irn Bru Cup Final or even Semi-Final between Rangers and Celtic B Teams would fill Hampden several times over.

The colt sides wouldnt be B sides, they'd be youth sides. They've played Youth Cup Finals regularly at Hampden over the past decade and rarely gone above 8000, including all the hospitality/sponsors.

It was rare for them to get over 500 fans for the Challenge Cup games, and if they entered the league structure they'd be competing with the senior side on weekends.

The money they're offering isn't out their own pocket anyway, it's to come out the leagues prize money, they're just assuming they'll both finish top 2 for the next 5 years.

It's a ridiculous idea that benefits nobody. Their best U21 players will either be on the verge of their first team, or loaned out to Premiership/Championship sides, so the Colt side will just be youth players who'd be at League One/Two clubs on loan anyway. This obviously weakens teams at that level who lose a massive market for them and have to loan players from lower down the league system.

They just want to stockpile players incase anyone slips through the net. Celtic releasing Andy Robertson as they don't have space for 100 youth players spooked them, having a Colt side would mean they could have around 50 players in/around matchday squads every weekend.

Edited by RandomGuy
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  • 3 months later...
18 hours ago, HOODLUM65 said:

Being bandied about that the move would benefit the National team, however not seen anything that the B/Colt teams would consist of players with scottish connections. 

 

They keep resurrecting that in the full knowledge the other clubs and fans do not want this, so you have to ask why?

Partly it will be midia driven, I.E nothing else to write about at moment, but also the two clubs know smaller clubs are in a weak position, so want to take advantage.

If they are so desperate, demand that every single player in colt team is eligible for Scotland, ask them to forge their share of TV money and prevent them from signing any u16 player from another club, I.E they must develop their own. See how much they want it then. 

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