St Johnstone: What's gone wrong at the double cup winners?

[Setting Son]

On 12/4/2021 at 12:40 PM, Saintdunc said:

There is, or must be, something sinister going on behind the scenes!

I’ve heard he’s fallen out with Steve Brown again . 
   Brown taking a lot of the fans views about not starting the same team . 
 Injuries and suspensions ,,,, surely with the huge squad we can cope . 

[Cagey]

3 hours ago, Evansabove said:

I’ve heard he’s fallen out with Steve Brown again . 
   Brown taking a lot of the fans views about not starting the same team . 
 Injuries and suspensions ,,,, surely with the huge squad we can cope . 

You will always get rumours when things are not going well.

Is the huge squad remark sarcasm ?.

[Saintdunc]

If we had only been proactive in the last window rather than reactive we might have been ok. 
 

Brown has to take responsibility for not releasing funds (seems like forever) to address some of the issues, especially the fact that some players were reaching the end of their careers and we would be need to have recruited.

What we have now is a Championship side at best, and maybe that is his wish.

[RandomGuy]

13 minutes ago, Saintdunc said:

Brown has to take responsibility for not releasing funds (seems like forever) to address some of the issues.

Who says he didn't?

We paid a fee for Vertainen, high earners like MOH and May got handed long term deals. Gordon got a substantial wage rise with his new deal. 

Presumably money is being set aside for potentially expensive new deals for Clark/McCart/Rooney.

I just don't think the last window was planned for at all (worryingly similar to the window after our 2014 cup win) so we ended up a step behind everyone else and having to pick up the scraps.

[Widge]

21 minutes ago, Saintdunc said:

If we had only been proactive in the last window rather than reactive we might have been ok. 
 

Brown has to take responsibility for not releasing funds (seems like forever) to address some of the issues, especially the fact that some players were reaching the end of their careers and we would be need to have recruited.

What we have now is a Championship side at best, and maybe that is his wish.

I love when things go wrong the first person saints fans blame is Steve Brown. In my opinion the only thing he’s done wrong is sell McCann too late in the window. Other than that he’s paid a fee for a player, put wage rises in front of other members of the squad, allowed Davidson to bring in players he’s identified and even given him and extends contract. 
 

Hardly his fault that he’s got a manager who is currently unable to get his team playing football, who have issues with injuries and members of the squad who are simply not committed or caring about the team. There’s bigger issues with this saints squad right now to even be casting aspersions at the chairman, right now our issues are stemming on the park, which he can’t control. 

[Abernethy Saint]

So MacPherson and Crawford to score in a 2-0 in today, then.

[Coltrane]

5 hours ago, Widge said:

I love when things go wrong the first person saints fans blame is Steve Brown. In my opinion the only thing he’s done wrong is sell McCann too late in the window. Other than that he’s paid a fee for a player, put wage rises in front of other members of the squad, allowed Davidson to bring in players he’s identified and even given him and extends contract.

To go from being double cup winners to sitting at the bottom of the league in the space of so many months shows the club has been mismanaged during that time at all levels - from the very top on down. 

And the people who paid for season tickets on the back of the cup wins have been robbed imo.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Coltrane
new thought

[Stumpy1949]

3 hours ago, Coltrane said:

To go from being double cup winners to sitting at the bottom of the league in the space of so many months shows the club has been mismanaged during that time at all levels - from the very top on down. 

And the people who paid for season tickets on the back of the cup wins have been robbed imo.

If it takes a cup win to buy a season ticket you are not a supporter you are a glory hunter. If you can’t support saints through thick and thin then go and follow one of the old firm. 

[akuram]

3 hours ago, Coltrane said:

To go from being double cup winners to sitting at the bottom of the league in the space of so many months shows the club has been mismanaged during that time at all levels - from the very top on down. 

And the people who paid for season tickets on the back of the cup wins have been robbed imo.

Absolutely. How many of those will buy next year?

Won't stop me though.

[Melbourne Saint]

20 minutes ago, Stumpy1966 said:

If it takes a cup win to buy a season ticket you are not a supporter you are a glory hunter. If you can’t support saints through thick and thin then go and follow one of the old firm. 

I think it's more quality of performance. Harcore saw us bottom of the league. 1986/7 Hardcore saw us lose 5-0 at stenny. 

I think anyone that buys a season ticket is a legend, tbh. 

Everyone is hurting. I don't care what ever sentiment any person has to commit to a season ticket.

They are very welcome.

[dave mc]

3 hours ago, Melbourne Saint said:

I think it's more quality of performance. Harcore saw us bottom of the league. 1986/7 Hardcore saw us lose 5-0 at stenny. 

I think anyone that buys a season ticket is a legend, tbh. 

Everyone is hurting. I don't care what ever sentiment any person has to commit to a season ticket.

They are very welcome.

It was 4 at Stenny,I was there,I’m with Stumpy,cup wins don’t encourage me to buy a season ticket,through shite and muck!!

[dave mc]

7 hours ago, Coltrane said:

To go from being double cup winners to sitting at the bottom of the league in the space of so many months shows the club has been mismanaged during that time at all levels - from the very top on down. 

And the people who paid for season tickets on the back of the cup wins have been robbed imo.

Cup football is nothing like league football,we were bottom last season too,I’ve had a season ticket most of my adult life,46 years,and never felt robbed,

[Melbourne Saint]

6 minutes ago, dave mc said:

It was 4 at Stenny,I was there,I’m with Stumpy,cup wins don’t encourage me to buy a season ticket,through shite and muck!!

Never said any a ST should based on  cups.

They mostly buy for entertainment. 

Football competes against online viewing. Have saints done anything?

 

I'd far rather a vid of @blueheaven munting his grannie.

Each to their own.

 

[Melbourne Saint]

We must target Australia. They're proven, technical, and hungry.

And cheap.

 

[Coltrane]

2 hours ago, dave mc said:

Cup football is nothing like league football,we were bottom last season too,I’ve had a season ticket most of my adult life,46 years,and never felt robbed,

Yup, there are all different types of supporters - die hard, fair weather, glory hunters etc.  I assume that the club would be trying to attract and hold on to any season ticket holders to increase their badly needed income.  Whether that is being successful so far this season is debatable.

[Setting Son]

6 hours ago, Melbourne Saint said:

We must target Australia. They're proven, technical, and hungry.

And cheap.

 

Yip we’ve just taken a player from Australia. 

[Setting Son]

8 hours ago, dave mc said:

Cup football is nothing like league football,we were bottom last season too,I’ve had a season ticket most of my adult life,46 years,and never felt robbed,

Every season it’s the same folk moaning about the same shit . I personally think the players manager and chairman deserve some slack for what they achieved last season . Someone said yesterday at the game Liam Craig had been booked for his first challenge 5 times this season . Suspensions and injuries are killing us . 

[blueheaven]

2 hours ago, Evansabove said:

Every season it’s the same folk moaning about the same shit . I personally think the players manager and chairman deserve some slack for what they achieved last season . Someone said yesterday at the game Liam Craig had been booked for his first challenge 5 times this season . Suspensions and injuries are killing us . 

I'm pretty sure quite a few/most of Liam Craig's bookings have been for mouthing off at refs.

[MrBored]

There are a number of things 'hindering' us this season.

The sale of the best two players in the side, that were such a big cog in the wheel. Kerr's ability to move into the midfield when required isn't being attempted by the ones in there now. Partly simply because they don't have that ability. Brown has done well....but just doesn't have that in his locker. Neither do the others in the back three. It is all most impossible to get someone who does the same as McCann in terms of the number of different jobs he was able to do in the side. Not having these two has taken a lot out of the side both going forward and defensively.

After the success of last season I think the players are finding it difficult to get back to that standard. Some, I suspect, are looking towards their own futures and while they might not mean to, I think they have come off it and aren't quite offering the same as they did last season. Not saying they are intentionally 'downing tools' but they certainly aren't getting to the same standard.

We don't hear much about it, but I also feel teams have now 'sussed' out the way we play and are combatting it. Keep the likes of Rooney and Booth going backwards, takes a lot out of the offensive aspect of our play as the wing backs aren't getting as far forward as they did last season.

Some of it is luck. Some things that went our way last season are going against us this time. The cup semi against Hibs last season, we could have been out of it by half time, survive the scares and the rest is history...this year, not so much. Decisions like yesterday from the officials. Decisions from the players, like Bryson against Hibs when we had the game where we would have wanted it.

Injuries have played a part seems much more than last season.

The biggest problem is scoring. Last season we weren't exactly scoring loads, but the chances we got, we generally took. We were a threat from dead balls and that doesn't seem to be there at the moment. The likes of Rooney don't seem to be the same threat, both as a goal scoring threat and going down the wing. I wonder if a bit of that is that the wing backs don't trust the back three enough to go flying down the side.

Big transfer window. couple of midfielders who can offer some defensive support (not Crawford!) and a bigger threat up front. Get that and we won't have a problem.

[RandomGuy]

We can't play the same way without Kerr, McCann and Wotherspoon, but the manager thinks we can.

That probably the most worrying bit.

[chips]

56 minutes ago, MrBored said:

 

Big transfer window. couple of midfielders who can offer some defensive support (not Crawford!) and a bigger threat up front. Get that and we won't have a problem.

My concern is if we're still sitting in the bottom 2 what contract length would you offer potential new players. I've no idea who CD has in mind for this  transfer window but if we're not up the table a few places by then surely it'll impact on who'd want to commit to a team looking like relegation candidates. I'd imagine our players just now will have some sort of clause written into their contracts regarding relegation anyway and can maybe see why certain others are stalling on renewing.

Feels awfy doom and gloom, only way is up I suppose 

[Cagey]

1 hour ago, MrBored said:

There are a number of things 'hindering' us this season.

The sale of the best two players in the side, that were such a big cog in the wheel. Kerr's ability to move into the midfield when required isn't being attempted by the ones in there now. Partly simply because they don't have that ability. Brown has done well....but just doesn't have that in his locker. Neither do the others in the back three. It is all most impossible to get someone who does the same as McCann in terms of the number of different jobs he was able to do in the side. Not having these two has taken a lot out of the side both going forward and defensively.

After the success of last season I think the players are finding it difficult to get back to that standard. Some, I suspect, are looking towards their own futures and while they might not mean to, I think they have come off it and aren't quite offering the same as they did last season. Not saying they are intentionally 'downing tools' but they certainly aren't getting to the same standard.

We don't hear much about it, but I also feel teams have now 'sussed' out the way we play and are combatting it. Keep the likes of Rooney and Booth going backwards, takes a lot out of the offensive aspect of our play as the wing backs aren't getting as far forward as they did last season.

Some of it is luck. Some things that went our way last season are going against us this time. The cup semi against Hibs last season, we could have been out of it by half time, survive the scares and the rest is history...this year, not so much. Decisions like yesterday from the officials. Decisions from the players, like Bryson against Hibs when we had the game where we would have wanted it.

Injuries have played a part seems much more than last season.

The biggest problem is scoring. Last season we weren't exactly scoring loads, but the chances we got, we generally took. We were a threat from dead balls and that doesn't seem to be there at the moment. The likes of Rooney don't seem to be the same threat, both as a goal scoring threat and going down the wing. I wonder if a bit of that is that the wing backs don't trust the back three enough to go flying down the side.

Big transfer window. couple of midfielders who can offer some defensive support (not Crawford!) and a bigger threat up front. Get that and we won't have a problem.

Or tactics.

[blueheaven]

19 hours ago, MrBored said:

We don't hear much about it, but I also feel teams have now 'sussed' out the way we play and are combatting it. Keep the likes of Rooney and Booth going backwards, takes a lot out of the offensive aspect of our play as the wing backs aren't getting as far forward as they did last season.

I'm not sure if other teams have figured out the way we play, or that we've just stopped playing like that. The way we played last season was effective and hard to play against, whether the opponent saw it coming or not. Booth and Rooney had constant support from McCann, who always came towards them to look for the ball and give them an option. This season no one seems to be doing that - our wing-backs get the ball and look exasperated as they have no support so end up passing it backwards. I think Booth is also really missing Spoony to play one-twos with down the left (Crawford is nominally Spoony's replacement in the team but rarely offers Booth that option). Rooney at his best last season generally had Kerr charging up the park alongside him, and either O'Halloran or Conway ahead of him to help out (this season Rooney and MOH are often being asked to play different positions). The whole system just doesn't seem to function in the way it used to.

[dave mc]

Last season it looked like a 3-4-3,and we stretched teams,but it’s 3-4-2-1 this term,and we’re not getting the width we were,and therefore less crosses in,

[RandomGuy]

5 minutes ago, dave mc said:

Last season it looked like a 3-4-3,and we stretched teams,but it’s 3-4-2-1 this term,and we’re not getting the width we were,and therefore less crosses in,

We didn't score enough goals last season either.