Time for Levein to go

[yahoorsir]

I am done with his totally negative tactics, s**** performances and dreadful results. If we have any hope of staying up we have to get rid now. 

[GOB10]

Wont be hard to get onboard with this.. think most will agree but there is no chance it will happen. We have him wether we like it or not. The trigger wont get pulled 2 times in 1 season. But his anti football is depressing 

[RandomGuy]

Yeah we feel a bit like we did by the end of Davidsons reign now. He wont go though, they'll be hoping he puts plans in place for the Summer early, we stay up, and then the (hopefully) new owners make their move on keeping him or changing.

[blueheaven]

Giving Levein a three-year contract was just the latest in a long line of laughably bad decisions made by the club ever since Tommy Wright left. Whoever was brought in to replace Macca (himself a ridiculously bad appointment) should have been told they have until the end of the season to keep us up and prove they're the right person for the job. Then the long-term contract could start being discussed.

The single biggest problem this team has had for years is an inability to score goals. So what do Saints do? They go out and head-hunt the one guy more famed than anyone else in Scottish football for his negative approach.

I've always said I don't care how we play as long as we're successful. If parking the bus gets us 1-0 wins every week and pulls us up the table then I'm delighted with that. But when being defensive makes absolutely no difference to results and we still end up losing every week anyway, surely it's time to chuck that plan out the window and accept that it's not going to work?

In my years of supporting Saints we've finished third in the country twice, and on both occasions it was done by playing aggressive, attacking football. It's a complete myth that a team of Saints' size needs to be scared of every other team in the league, but the culture of fear instilled by Davidson, unbroken by MacLean's best efforts and continued with gusto by Levein has absolutely destroyed any confidence our players ever had in their ability to actually have a go at teams. We're just a complete shell of the St Johnstone we once were and it's bloody heartbreaking to watch.

I'm very rarely in favour of sacking managers after such a short amount of time. I wasn't particularly on board with sacking John Connolly so quickly and I also felt Macca could perhaps have got a bit more time, given the circumstances he was working under. But in my opinion both Levein and Kirk should be removed from their positions immediately. Sadly, I don't think there's any chance of that happening any time soon.

 

[Templar Saint]

Cannot see it happening.

Current board appointed him and with new owner take over talks being at the stage they are at (SFA notified) any decisions regarding management team will be left until deal done.

Financially they will not wish to increase club's creditors/reduce bank balance with cost of pay off for current management team.

Gives new owners chance to get onside with Fans if they the owners are of the same view as the fans regarding type of football and results we are seeing, they then bring in their own men.

[blueheaven]

Just for a quick comparison between Macca and Levein.

Macca was in charge for 19 games. Won 4, drew 6, lost 9.

Levein has been in charge for 18 games. Won 4, drew 5, lost 9.

So for all the "steadied the ship" stuff around Levein, it could now be argued Macca had the better record after a similar period of time. It took him 19 games to lose 9 times. Levein has done it in 18.

[Cagey]

3 hours ago, blueheaven said:

Just for a quick comparison between Macca and Levein.

Macca was in charge for 19 games. Won 4, drew 6, lost 9.

Levein has been in charge for 18 games. Won 4, drew 5, lost 9.

So for all the "steadied the ship" stuff around Levein, it could now be argued Macca had the better record after a similar period of time. It took him 19 games to lose 9 times. Levein has done it in 18.

To be fair at least  5 of Maccas games were against bottom 5 teams.

[blueheaven]

46 minutes ago, Cagey said:

To be fair at least  5 of Maccas games were against bottom 5 teams.

I'm not sure what your point is here. At least five of Levein's games have been against teams in the bottom five too (three games against Motherwell, two against Ross County, one against Hibs, one against Livi, one against Aberdeen).

The only real difference is the cup games. Macca's spell included our League Cup group games, while Levein's included getting put out of the Scottish Cup by Airdrie.

[akuram]

It’s all just a mess. 

[Stumpy1949]

The biggest concern to me is that most of our wins were with macca’s signings now using his own signings we are losing games. It’s all right signing players with speed they need to be able to kick the ball when they catch up with it. The players we were needing to sign with speed were in the defence. That way we can push forward without worrying about getting caught on the break. We sit far to deep to try and compensate for the lack of speed. 

[Radford 72]

Is the consensus that this squad is rubbish? Probably?

But is it unreasonable to suggest it's still being managed as poorly as it was under MacLean?

Folk are posting evidence of it anyway. Both managers got an initial bounce but their records are now comparable over essentially half-a-season.

Of course the argument will be that managers need time but they need to buy themselves it surely and 2 goals from open play from inside the area (i.e. breaking teams down) isn't doing that. Even that number is generous as the Kimpioka goal comes from a defensive error and the Keltjens one from Roos doing a Superman. There is a case we haven't scored a single goal under this management team from breaking a team down.

NOT A SINGLE ONE.

For me, there needs to be an improvement and very quickly or my patience is going to be fully exhausted.

Actually, who am I kidding, it already is.

Compare going down under Sturrock to going down under Stark. Look at the bigger picture.

Levein was bored at home again so thought he may as well have a play at shop. And this is the result.

[rik2304]

18 minutes ago, Radford 72 said:

 

Levein was bored at home again so thought he may as well have a play at shop. And this is the result.

Only because we actively went after him though. So does that mean not a single candidate that put themselves forward was remotely attractive? 

[blueheaven]

40 minutes ago, Radford 72 said:

Is the consensus that this squad is rubbish? Probably?

I honestly don't think the squad is all that bad. Of course it's imbalanced and we lack width and the defence needs an overhaul (which I expect would happen this summer regardless of this season's performances). Of course the quality isn't what it was a few years ago but I really don't think it would take all that much to have this squad fairly comfortably mid-table (and let's not forget that just a couple of weeks ago we were about 15 minutes from being in the top 6). The players just need the right structure, and a bit of a confidence boost, and some license to knock the ball about a bit and try to enjoy their football.

I think in players like Mitov, Keltjens, Sprangler, Phillips, Matt Smith, Carey, May and Clark there's the essence of a reasonably decent team there that could comfortably give us something to build on. But to me the manager is just making error after error in how he does things. The players' mindset is all wrong and instead of having it drilled into them to be aggressive and fearless and have a go at their opponents, they're having it drilled into them to be scared (which is exactly what Callum Davidson did, too).

One thing that the last couple of years has shown us is that you really don't have to be particularly good to stay in this league. We were absolutely rotten for two whole seasons under Davidson and yet we still didn't go down. If we actually get relegated with what we have it'll be entirely on Levein and Kirk and there's no way they should be allowed to survive that happening.

[Radford 72]

5 minutes ago, blueheaven said:

I honestly don't think the squad is all that bad.

Saturday was definitely down in a large part to tactical issues but after that I guess the question becomes confidence or actual quality when it comes down to individuals.

I'm wholly unconvinced it's not the latter I'm afraid.

The lack of width is crippling. It's why I'd have Jaiyesimi in the team for Wednesday out wide.

[blueheaven]

4 hours ago, Radford 72 said:

Levein was bored at home again so thought he may as well have a play at shop. And this is the result.

When Levein was appointed I mentioned on here that I thought his interview was weird. He didn't express any excitement about getting the job, he didn't say anything about his ambitions for the club or what it had achieved in its very recent history or what it could do in the future. In fact he didn't say anything about St Johnstone at all. He basically just said Geoff asked him to take the job, so he took it.

Looking back on that I think it really highlighted what Levein's mindset is. He undoubtedly sees us as a decent option for himself to manage in the Premiership again but he doesn't see St Johnstone as a club to get excited about. His attitude actually reminds me of Billy Stark, who didn't understand the fans' ambitions and just saw us as a small club who should be content/grateful to be where we were.

Guys like Derek McInnes and Owen Coyle might have lacked experience but they had a hunger and a drive and they were excited to have been given the opportunity to manage here and wanted to snatch that opportunity with both hands. Can anyone honestly say the same thing about Craig Levein? I'm not even sure that Craig Levein would particularly care if Craig Levein got sacked.

 

[RandomGuy]

Theres enough players in there technically good enough to stay up.

Theres too many players in there who are too weak mentally to drag us out a poor run of form.

When its all going well they'll be fine, they hit a wee bump in the road then it just collapses. Worst bit is when its going too well they got arrogant and let standards drop. Theyll probably play well on Wednesday and fight like ****, get all the plaudits and pat themselves on the back, then revert to shitebags the next game.

We'd be better with worse footballers with better mentalities, and it makes me appreciate ones id probably criticised in the past. People like Anderson, Muzz, and Kane himself, got pelters at different times for not being good enough technically, but you could rely on them more often than not to set standards in terms of effort/fight.

[Radford 72]

13 minutes ago, blueheaven said:

 I'm not even sure that Craig Levein would particularly care if Craig Levein got sacked.

He'd probably interview himself on his podcast.

[Maskrey]

It is not going well that is certain but I feel with any manager you have to give him time.  He doesn’t trust the players in his squad which is evidenced by the constant wholesale changes from game to game.  He needs to be allowed to shape his own squad in the summer unless the new owners come in and want to pay up his contract.  We need to concentrate on the be all and end all which is staying up and then build from there.  

[rik2304]

If/when he's sacked he'll be back on Sportsound at the weekend chuckling about it.

[SaintJet]

Like everyone else on this board I am no expert when it comes to managing a Premier league side. I have an opinion and like a lot of people here I'm not happy with the football I'm having to watch week in week out. What Statistics will show, however, to anyone who is not blinkered is that changing managers continually is a recipe for disaster! Some people on this boad remind me of spoiled old firm fans who think they have a god given right to have a great football side and only have the good times.

Just for a moment people need to look at what we have achieved in the last ten years and with a budget as small as ours that really is quite incredible.

We have fell on hard times; it's been coming for a while now and we all know where it started. Geoff has made a move to bring in a manager who has extensive experience - Levein started at Cowdenbeath before having success at Hearts, Leicester, Dundee utd. He also managed Scotland before returning to Hearts. He must have had something to be given these appointments and you don't suddenly become a bad manager.

I'm as concerened as every fan about how we are setting up, some obvious ommissions and how our gameplan is being implemented. But I'm not at training everyday and certainly don't know the players or how they are adapting to new coaches.

I've said before - the mess we were in when McLean left , bottom of the league and no hope of staying up- this season is all about survival and we are now starting with a new players in key positions. 

I'll get lambasted for being an apologist for Levein but I still believe that we can get it right and remain a premier league team and I live in hope that things will click and fall in to place soon. It's not easy to say that after a pretty insipid performance on Saturday.

Calling for a change at this juncture of the season is just plain stupid.

[Cagey]

39 minutes ago, Maskrey said:

It is not going well that is certain but I feel with any manager you have to give him time.  He doesn’t trust the players in his squad which is evidenced by the constant wholesale changes from game to game.  He needs to be allowed to shape his own squad in the summer unless the new owners come in and want to pay up his contract.  We need to concentrate on the be all and end all which is staying up and then build from there.  

We won't stay up under him. All the posts before you attest to that. All experienced posters who's opinions I respect.

[RandomGuy]

6 minutes ago, SaintJet said:

Just for a moment people need to look at what we have achieved in the last ten years and with a budget as small as ours that really is quite incredible.

Nah the lack of spend isnt an excuse over the past few years.

Our accounts show we spent over £500k on players in the past 2 seasons (with a further fee spent in January on Sidibeh), and our wage bill last year was over £4.5m.

Based on previous figures that would have us closer to Hibs than Livingston.

Combine the fees in and we've comfortably been one of the top 6 in terms of money spent over the past 2 seasons. We've just done absolutely **** all with that spending. 

[Cagey]

10 minutes ago, SaintJet said:

Like everyone else on this board I am no expert when it comes to managing a Premier league side. I have an opinion and like a lot of people here I'm not happy with the football I'm having to watch week in week out. What Statistics will show, however, to anyone who is not blinkered is that changing managers continually is a recipe for disaster! Some people on this boad remind me of spoiled old firm fans who think they have a god given right to have a great football side and only have the good times.

Just for a moment people need to look at what we have achieved in the last ten years and with a budget as small as ours that really is quite incredible.

We have fell on hard times; it's been coming for a while now and we all know where it started. Geoff has made a move to bring in a manager who has extensive experience - Levein started at Cowdenbeath before having success at Hearts, Leicester, Dundee utd. He also managed Scotland before returning to Hearts. He must have had something to be given these appointments and you don't suddenly become a bad manager.

I'm as concerened as every fan about how we are setting up, some obvious ommissions and how our gameplan is being implemented. But I'm not at training everyday and certainly don't know the players or how they are adapting to new coaches.

I've said before - the mess we were in when McLean left , bottom of the league and no hope of staying up- this season is all about survival and we are now starting with a new players in key positions. 

I'll get lambasted for being an apologist for Levein but I still believe that we can get it right and remain a premier league team and I live in hope that things will click and fall in to place soon. It's not easy to say that after a pretty insipid performance on Saturday.

Calling for a change at this juncture of the season is just plain stupid.

I think it was later in the season last season and it worked even with what you called a poor manager.

Leveiins record is not as good as it looks on paper . Apart from United there are none you could call a success.

[Northern saint]

In my Levein Report Card thread I gave him a three because I saw no structure, no semblance of a style of play. By now Levein/Kirk should have a knowledge of the capabilities of the players and designed a style, structure to get the best from them.  

I criticised him for the wholesale changes which has never allowed partnerships to develop, players to find their feet and some form like DJ.  

I accept the owner felt Levein would give stability but that hasn't shown.  Managers can turn it around if they are hungry to prove doubters wrong.  Falkirk, Raith have all improved under their managers.  

On Wednesday, I hope I'm proved wrong, but we'll set up to give Aberdeen (a poor Aberdeen) the initiative and only have a go in the last fifteen.  We need to take the initiative and that is what any manager who is engaged with the players and fans will want.  It seems it's too difficult to do the hard work to improve the players.  It's easier to do little.  Little means relegation.

[pezza70]

So how much of this on CL and how much is this on Kirk.

All the reports we here is that he takes the training sessions, so is it him reporting to CL on players performance on the training paddock or is he just a yes man who doesn’t rock the boat.

We have players underperforming each week and they still get a game.

Ive said here plenty of times but having no reserve games means players not getting a game can’t keep any rhythm by sitting on the bum each week and if we do bring in guys they have no match fitness or genuine match sharpness.