POLL: Should Craig Levein be sacked?

[blueheaven]

Straight-forward yes or no question to see what the feeling is amongst our support. Is it time to get rid?

[Northern saint]

Six months, no style of play, no dropping of players who fail week after week.  Can't see any problems as he never changes things in time.  No plan A let alone B.   

[Strawman]

I voted yes but dont feel anywhere near as strongly about this as I did when wanting Callum gone.

I dont for a minute think Levein will be sacked but I think overall we d have a better chance of avoiding the play off with him gone.

In an ideal world, we stay up, get new owners and they bring in their own choice of manager.

[Willie Peat]

Maybe he'll do a Humza. Have the honesty to realise that he is not good enough and resign

!

[tucker]

Don't like seeing guys loose there jobs but I won't be back until he's left can't watch week in week out this pish.wont be renewing my season ticket 

[sixties saintee]

Dosent he get any abuse at McD ??

[Saintdunc]

He should be punted, but who's in charge with a big enough pair?

Is there anyone in charge????

[SlickDT]

I wonder if it would make any major difference in the short-term. I didn't see a lack of effort on Saturday, I saw a lack of ability, leadership, sharpness and doggedness. I don't think Cleland can magic these things up over night.

A new manager in the short-term isn't going to magically make Sprangler fit, guarantee Wright is match-fit, magic Considine's legs back ten years, change the decisions of Max or Matt Smith when on the or find gems to replace players underperforming.

I was pleased with Levein's appointment and thought anything about 12th was a success from him. I have become more disappointed as the weeks have gone on. It's a continuation of bleak football that we have now watched for three seasons. I certainly don't want another season of it and want to know who they have in mind for next season and what formation and tactics they aim to play, as it's just not working now. We simply can't play good football.

One bonus is that he has brought in two strikers that I think can get goals and I am hopeful that is the difference whether it be via 10th or in the play-offs.

 

[rik2304]

The big question is then would you want him to to be in charge of a big rebuild in the summer?

[pezza70]

I voted yes as he is taking us to the playoff at best and I have no confidence that we will win that over the two legs.

No idea who is running the ship right now as surely they can see the decline we are currently in.

It shows how bad the SPL really is that we are not running last with our goal scoring record and general play.

[PSJ.84]

8 hours ago, SlickDT said:

 I didn't see a lack of effort on Saturday

I did. 

[SaintJet]

12 hours ago, SlickDT said:

I wonder if it would make any major difference in the short-term. I didn't see a lack of effort on Saturday, I saw a lack of ability, leadership, sharpness and doggedness. I don't think Cleland can magic these things up over night.

A new manager in the short-term isn't going to magically make Sprangler fit, guarantee Wright is match-fit, magic Considine's legs back ten years, change the decisions of Max or Matt Smith when on the or find gems to replace players underperforming.

I was pleased with Levein's appointment and thought anything about 12th was a success from him. I have become more disappointed as the weeks have gone on. It's a continuation of bleak football that we have now watched for three seasons. I certainly don't want another season of it and want to know who they have in mind for next season and what formation and tactics they aim to play, as it's just not working now. We simply can't play good football.

One bonus is that he has brought in two strikers that I think can get goals and I am hopeful that is the difference whether it be via 10th or in the play-offs.

 

I agree with everything Slick is saying here; I've become a bit dissilusioned with how the second half of the season has developed but I see no good thing to come of getting rid of another manager in the midst of a relegation battle.

If Craig Levein keeps us up he will have earned the right to start a rebuild but this won't sit well with some people I appreciate.

[Radford 72]

4 hours ago, PSJ.84 said:

I did. 

I think they are just really poorly coached. There were times under Davidson you could tell they'd downed tools, I've not seen that yet under Levein I'd say.

But the first point is a massive issue and is there faith it can be rectified? I agree with various points already made in the thread.

Davidson had well and truly run his course. I knew for certain he wasn't going to turn things round. Sacking Levein now would have an element of unfairness as he hasn't had a lot of time and has recovered us from the position he inherited, although almost entirely because of a new manager bounce.

It isn't even about our chances of staying up/going down for me as the league we are in has become secondary to the overall direction of travel that needs reversed.

So, accepting there is an element of unfairness and aware that if he remains then it's not impossible that in a year's time this thread could be getting dug up and laughed at, I'd still sack him.

[blueheaven]

13 hours ago, SlickDT said:

I wonder if it would make any major difference in the short-term. I didn't see a lack of effort on Saturday, I saw a lack of ability, leadership, sharpness and doggedness. I don't think Cleland can magic these things up over night.

He managed it last time. We were awful in Macca's last few games, culminating in the 4-0 defeat at St Mirren. Cleland then took charge and within a couple of days we'd beaten Kilmarnock with probably our best home performance of the season.

It's pretty common for a team to get a lift and pick up a couple of good results after a change of manager. In the situation we're in that would probably be enough to keep us up. Surely that's worth going for?

For me, we need to try every option available to get ourselves out of this mess, and changing the manager is the most obvious option. Craig Levein's contract is not more important or more valuable than our Premiership status.

It amazes me that anyone would want the club to just sit and watch us get relegated, instead of actually doing something proactive to change the situation and try to get us out of this mess while there's still time.

[GMac]

Both should go.  After Saturday, even I could see the dressing room is lost.

[blueheaven]

6 minutes ago, Radford 72 said:

There were times under Davidson you could tell they'd downed tools, I've not seen that yet under Levein I'd say.

Up until Saturday I'd have agreed with this, but I felt the Hibs game saw a bit of a capitulation. A lot of the players looked like they were just at the end of their tether and had given up.

I mean, in some ways it's better if they weren't trying, because if that's what they play like when they're actually giving their all then we're in even more trouble than I thought.

[Radford 72]

2 minutes ago, blueheaven said:

Up until Saturday I'd have agreed with this, but I felt the Hibs game saw a bit of a capitulation. A lot of the players looked like they were just at the end of their tether and had given up.

I mean, in some ways it's better if they weren't trying, because if that's what they play like when they're actually giving their all then we're in even more trouble than I thought.

As I said, I think we are just really poorly coached and maybe that is worse. So easy to play through. Our good defensive record (relative) is down largely to Mitov as opposed to our dogged defensive structure.

As for an attacking plan, it's very primitive, punt it for the fast guy but I suppose at least it's a concept, we didn't even have that under MacLean.

[Cagey]

42 minutes ago, SaintJet said:

I agree with everything Slick is saying here; I've become a bit dissilusioned with how the second half of the season has developed but I see no good thing to come of getting rid of another manager in the midst of a relegation battle.

If Craig Levein keeps us up he will have earned the right to start a rebuild but this won't sit well with some people I appreciate.

If having Levein here next season is the price to pay for staying up I think I would rather take my chances in the championship.

[sixties saintee]

Nae manager, Nae Coach, Nae sports scientists, Nae wonder were fecked.

[Dooj]

2 hours ago, blueheaven said:

 

It's pretty common for a team to get a lift and pick up a couple of good results after a change of manager. In the situation we're in that would probably be enough to keep us up. Surely that's worth going for?

 

There's a lot of debate about whether the 'new manager bounce' is a myth or not. The problem is that to test it properly is pretty much impossible. All teams have ups and downs - with their average performance (by definition) being somewhere in the middle. The problem is that managers are nearly always sacked/replaced when the team is doing poorly and the team's performance may have improved anyway regardless of the person in charge (the technical term is regression to the mean). It's not possible to tell whether the improvement is actually down to the new manager.

Of course, a new manager may bring new tactical ideas and players may be motivated to try and impress a new boss; but a new manager also brings a lack of knowledge of the players, their skills and their strengths. Managerial change is hugely disruptive and therefore a risk.

For me, there is no point in changing the manager based on a belief that there will be a 'bounce'. I think the decision should be based on an assessment of whether the manager has 'lost the changing room'. If players aren't playing for each other and the manager then the game is up; however, if the players are still fighting and working as a unit then even if results aren't great, then to me it's too big a risk to change the manager. Part of this will be seen on the pitch, but you can only really tell if a manager has lost the players by seeing how he interacts with them behind the scenes.

FWIW, I think getting rid of Levein at this stage would be too big a risk. I dont think it is inevitable that we will finish 11th, but neither am I confident that we won't. And assuming we do stay up, I am fearful for the summer rebuild and next season.

 

[Cagey]

25 minutes ago, sixties saintee said:

Nae manager, Nae Coach, Nae sports scientists, Nae wonder were fecked.

Yeah but we have a board comprising Stan and Roddy 🤣

[Northern saint]

It would be naïve to think Saints are concerned they are losing their fanbase and are looking at sites such as this one.  The apathy from contributors matches the desire shown by the team.  In years past there was a lot of debate, interest but many have given up as they can see no change coming. 

Levein will be supported despite our concerns.  

Would changing to Cleland to finish the season help?  I don't know.  

I would point to his cameo roles and say, he had the players on the front foot from the very beginning.  He at least gave the players the chance to express themselves, play in forward areas, with forward passes. 

I feel Levein is so defensive minded, he's created mind fog for the players and they are struggling to show their skills.  Like Davidson, errors are over inflated, players take fewer risks.  Trust is a two way streak.  To my mind Levein doesn't trust the players and they're reacting now.

We have four games to save our season.  How we do that parked on our eighteen yard line I don't know. 

[blueheaven]

2 hours ago, Dooj said:

There's a lot of debate about whether the 'new manager bounce' is a myth or not. The problem is that to test it properly is pretty much impossible. All teams have ups and downs - with their average performance (by definition) being somewhere in the middle. The problem is that managers are nearly always sacked/replaced when the team is doing poorly and the team's performance may have improved anyway regardless of the person in charge (the technical term is regression to the mean). It's not possible to tell whether the improvement is actually down to the new manager.

Of course, a new manager may bring new tactical ideas and players may be motivated to try and impress a new boss; but a new manager also brings a lack of knowledge of the players, their skills and their strengths. Managerial change is hugely disruptive and therefore a risk.

For me, there is no point in changing the manager based on a belief that there will be a 'bounce'. I think the decision should be based on an assessment of whether the manager has 'lost the changing room'. If players aren't playing for each other and the manager then the game is up; however, if the players are still fighting and working as a unit then even if results aren't great, then to me it's too big a risk to change the manager. Part of this will be seen on the pitch, but you can only really tell if a manager has lost the players by seeing how he interacts with them behind the scenes.

FWIW, I think getting rid of Levein at this stage would be too big a risk. I dont think it is inevitable that we will finish 11th, but neither am I confident that we won't. And assuming we do stay up, I am fearful for the summer rebuild and next season.

 

I agree there's no guarantee of a bounce and a change in manager is generally a calculated risk, but we're in a situation where the guy who would take over is someone who we already know is a fairly safe pair of hands who has handled it well in the past. For me that gives us a better chance of picking up a couple of results with Cleland than we would with Levein.

You say getting rid of Levein would be too big a risk but is there really all that much risk at this point? We're already on course to lose our upcoming games. The players look like they've chucked it. Levein looks like he has no ideas for how to improve it. What realistic prospect is there of him suddenly turning this around? The absolute worst that can happen if Cleland takes over is that we carry on losing games and we still finish 11th. But it's looking increasingly like that's going to happen anyway. At least if the club does that they can say they've rolled the dice and given it a go. Surely that's got to preferable to just sitting on their hands and watching it happen?

 

[blueheaven]

1 hour ago, Northern saint said:

In years past there was a lot of debate, interest but many have given up as they can see no change coming. 

To be honest I think that's more a case of people drifting off to other platforms than anything else. I think there's just as much online chat among Saints fans as there ever was. It's just that people have a lot more options for where to do it now.

[SaintJet]

59 minutes ago, blueheaven said:

I agree there's no guarantee of a bounce and a change in manager is generally a calculated risk, but we're in a situation where the guy who would take over is someone who we already know is a fairly safe pair of hands who has handled it well in the past. For me that gives us a better chance of picking up a couple of results with Cleland than we would with Levein.

You say getting rid of Levein would be too big a risk but is there really all that much risk at this point? We're already on course to lose our upcoming games. The players look like they've chucked it. Levein looks like he has no ideas for how to improve it. What realistic prospect is there of him suddenly turning this around? The absolute worst that can happen if Cleland takes over is that we carry on losing games and we still finish 11th. But it's looking increasingly like that's going to happen anyway. At least if the club does that they can say they've rolled the dice and given it a go. Surely that's got to preferable to just sitting on their hands and watching it happen?

 

This makes no sense at all. Clelland is working with the players everyday! He's part of the set up. Are the players suddenly going to start playing for him instead of Levein? If that is the case we have a real problem because what does that say about the players?

It's too risky to change at this stage of the season and it's not gooing to happen, we need to batten down the hatches and come out fighting. These players are playing for their careers. I don't believe for a minute the players have chucked it - they may not be very good but that's been the case all year. We need to find a way to win two games.