New Owner

[ex-montrosesaintee]

22 minutes ago, rik2304 said:

How dour must you be to not enjoy running a football club? Especially one that's doing well and getting, (some ) plaudits. 

Course he enjoyed the golf and the jollies.

Same level of dourness that would come with being a Rangers supporter I guess.... oh....

[MySpazz]

4 hours ago, Gekko said:

Yeah, it's definitely the 3 stands he's referring to.

I also thought it was a bit of a passive, aggressive type statement. Taking a swipe at the previous administration but in a respectful way.

We all had our problems with Steve Brown, but I suppose Webb is seeing more from the inside than we do.

Interesting he pointed out that they were reluctant to change.

I remember in his welcome interview, every time he mentioned something like "We want to be a top 6 club", Geoff would roll his eyes.

I love Geoff, and without him there wouldn't be a St. Johnstone. But it does seem like the time was right for them to hand over the reins.

He must feel frustration.

I'd imagine he has experience making money and successful businesses and wants Saints to do the same. To modernise, and that requires full buy-in from everyone.

The three stands "debate," as said many times here: If you are against your club making money, you have to wonder what type of fan you are. 

 

[Dooj]

42 minutes ago, MySpazz said:

 

The three stands "debate," as said many times here: If you are against your club making money, you have to wonder what type of fan you are. 

 

That's overly simplistic - of course there are limits to what fans would want their club to do, even if it is legal and made money. There would be uproar if Tommy Robinson and his mates rented out the stadium for a rally - you wouldn't use the 'what kind of fan?' argument then (I hope). Extreme example but the fact remains that many fans feel very strongly about how OF fans are accommodated and it isn't as clear cut as some would suggest.

[blueheaven]

Whole bunch of off-topic posts removed from this thread. Let's try to keep it vaguely Saints-related, everyone. 

[MySpazz]

9 hours ago, Dooj said:

That's overly simplistic - of course there are limits to what fans would want their club to do, even if it is legal and made money. There would be uproar if Tommy Robinson and his mates rented out the stadium for a rally - you wouldn't use the 'what kind of fan?' argument then (I hope). Extreme example but the fact remains that many fans feel very strongly about how OF fans are accommodated and it isn't as clear cut as some would suggest.

Jehovah's Witnesses rented the stadium... didn't turn down their money. Your Robinson types are, as you say, a bad example, but it is not for us as a club to get too santimonious when it comes to competing. And part of that is business—to fund the on-field competition. We cannot compete in any area, on or off the park, and to survive in the league requires money. You need to take the money and forget about the "if only BS."
If only it wasn't happening. We will be relegated and do an ICT if we don't kill our darlings and take the money that's there. And going against that, you should ask what kind of fan you are... because frankly, you are either with the Saints or against them, and not seeing the reality of the finances is selective, and my view is you are actually against the club.

BTW, we are garbage v. OF. With some money, we might be able to bolster the team, and who knows...

PAST 10 years
Rough Summary:

• Celtic's Dominance: Celtic have won 26 of their last 30 meetings with St Johnstone in all competitions (D4) since a 2-1 defeat in May 2016 under Ronny Deila.

• St Johnstone's Challenges at Celtic Park: St Johnstone are winless in 16 visits to Celtic in all competitions (D4 L12) since a 1-0 win in March 2015 under Tommy Wright.

Versus Rangers no better

Overall Performance:

• Total Matches Played: Approximately 30
• Rangers Wins: Approximately 25
• St Johnstone Wins: Approximately 3 (rangers were a much weakened team then)
• Draws: Approximately 2

[Cagey]

7 hours ago, MySpazz said:

Jehovah's Witnesses rented the stadium... didn't turn down their money. Your Robinson types are, as you say, a bad example, but it is not for us as a club to get too santimonious when it comes to competing. And part of that is business—to fund the on-field competition. We cannot compete in any area, on or off the park, and to survive in the league requires money. You need to take the money and forget about the "if only BS."
If only it wasn't happening. We will be relegated and do an ICT if we don't kill our darlings and take the money that's there. And going against that, you should ask what kind of fan you are... because frankly, you are either with the Saints or against them, and not seeing the reality of the finances is selective, and my view is you are actually against the club.

BTW, we are garbage v. OF. With some money, we might be able to bolster the team, and who knows...

PAST 10 years
Rough Summary:

• Celtic's Dominance: Celtic have won 26 of their last 30 meetings with St Johnstone in all competitions (D4) since a 2-1 defeat in May 2016 under Ronny Deila.

• St Johnstone's Challenges at Celtic Park: St Johnstone are winless in 16 visits to Celtic in all competitions (D4 L12) since a 1-0 win in March 2015 under Tommy Wright.

Versus Rangers no better

Overall Performance:

• Total Matches Played: Approximately 30
• Rangers Wins: Approximately 25
• St Johnstone Wins: Approximately 3 (rangers were a much weakened team then)
• Draws: Approximately 2

Defeatist plus approximately?. If you are going to quote stats surely best to get facts. 

Also, haven't seen a factual comparison of the difference in hard cash between 3 stands and 2.5.

The cup game against Rangers was an example of even fewer Saints fans turning up so we lose out there as well financially. It wasn't just the protest.

[RandomGuy]

ICT dropped to the 3rd tier because they had Scot Gardiner running the club and absolutely saddling them with debt. They lost 7 figures building a "battery farm" near the stadium that they didn't even own, and then he signed a kit manufacturing deal that cost ICT money.

It had literally nothing to do with how many tickets they did, or didn't, give the old firm.

It was the same with Falkirk and Dunfermline, before they get trotted out too. Financial mismanagement by shite owners eventually translates to what you can put on the park so the decline is inevitable. Falkirk scrapped their youth system and suddenly realised they needed to sign an extra handful of players every season while never receiving any transfer income. Dunfermline was purposely run into the ground.

[Northern saint]

In our daily lives, we all have things we would wish to change if it were possible.  As a new owner of a business, you always look at how you can improve the business with a focus on the bottom line.  

There has been much criticism on this forum of how the SFA/SFPL is run solely for the benefit of two teams.  How referring issues have never been addressed in any meaningful way.  I've known good referees at lower levels who knew they'd never reach the top as they didn't fit the profile.  Yet we can all name many who did who didn't know the rules of the game.  

Mr Webb has spoken about the alcohol ban, Old Firm fans and the value to the club in terms of their attendance and how he wishes to have us as a top 6 team, Europe and all.  As long as there is clear communication on the changes he wishes to implement, I think we should listen, analyse and engage properly with respect rather than cartoon like mock indignation. 

Will I agree with everything proposed, I don't know but apart from moving Saints to another town, I'll listen. 

If the argument is sound and will aid Saints, I will accept it. 

[THE LARK SAINT]

Might turn out to be bollox but I heard last night that the plan going forward if we stay up or to give OF behind both goals and North End of Main with Saints fans in East stand and Ormond end of main 

Time will tell if this has legs or not 

[Dooj]

8 hours ago, MySpazz said:

Jehovah's Witnesses rented the stadium... didn't turn down their money. Your Robinson types are, as you say, a bad example, but it is not for us as a club to get too santimonious when it comes to competing. And part of that is business—to fund the on-field competition. We cannot compete in any area, on or off the park, and to survive in the league requires money. You need to take the money and forget about the "if only BS."
If only it wasn't happening. We will be relegated and do an ICT if we don't kill our darlings and take the money that's there. And going against that, you should ask what kind of fan you are... because frankly, you are either with the Saints or against them, and not seeing the reality of the finances is selective, and my view is you are actually against the club.

 

Every organisation should conduct its business in line with its purpose and values - it is, as I said before, overly simplistic to say 'take the money' *regardless*. You need to weigh up the pros and cons of taking money from different sources and think what impact it might have on your stakeholders - and particularly the fans. Look at what happened when Cardiff proposed changing their shirt colour so that they would sell more shirts in Asia. There was, quite understandably, outrage from fans because while it might have increased revenue such a change struck right at the heart of the club's identity and fans weren't prepared to accept that.

I dont have a strong view either way on how the club address the OF situation but I do think it is a genuine dilemma for the new owner. It is not nearly as simple as you make out - you've got your own perspective on it, but surely you can accept that not everyone agrees with you and that it isn't the easy decision that you make it out to be. Just because there are different views, it doesn't make anyone more or less of a fan. TBH I tend to switch off when (as happens all too frequently) posters resort to insinuations of some people being more of a fan than others - its divisive, unfair, and an argument of no substance.

[blueheaven]

8 minutes ago, Dooj said:

Every organisation should conduct its business in line with its purpose and values - it is, as I said before, overly simplistic to say 'take the money' *regardless*. You need to weigh up the pros and cons of taking money from different sources and think what impact it might have on your stakeholders - and particularly the fans. Look at what happened when Cardiff proposed changing their shirt colour so that they would sell more shirts in Asia. There was, quite understandably, outrage from fans because while it might have increased revenue such a change struck right at the heart of the club's identity and fans weren't prepared to accept that.

I dont have a strong view either way on how the club address the OF situation but I do think it is a genuine dilemma for the new owner. It is not nearly as simple as you make out - you've got your own perspective on it, but surely you can accept that not everyone agrees with you and that it isn't the easy decision that you make it out to be. Just because there are different views, it doesn't make anyone more or less of a fan. TBH I tend to switch off when (as happens all too frequently) posters resort to insinuations of some people being more of a fan than others - its divisive, unfair, and an argument of no substance.

This is exactly how I feel about it. Personally I'd be reluctantly accepting of any decision to give the OF three stands, at least in the short term, if it would genuinely boost our team and our income. But a business can't just completely ignore the majority view of its customer-base and not expect any repercussions from that. If cashing in on those OF games upsets the home support and results in people staying away, then it'll lose the club more money than it earns and do more damage than good in the long term.

No club is ever going to get relegated or go bust purely because it hasn't given loads of seats to the Old Firm. As evidence of that, we survived relatively comfortably for seven years in the First Division, with very few games against the OF in that time other than occasional cup games. If we were to give them the extra stands, it would be a boost to our club coffers, rather than something we live or die on.

[Radford 72]

Giving the Old Firm the East Stand would increase their allocation by approximately 2,000 seats. Fran Smith I think put a figure of £75,000 on that?

There have been calls to offer season tickets without Old Firm games but could Saints instead offer season tickets generally at a lower price, using that money to subsidise it? 

Would that even make a difference to sales? It could get a huge PR push, only tickets in the league under £300 etc...

Would folk rather it just went into the budget for footballing stuff though?

[PerthSaint01]

I do wonder if there’s a way of completely segregating ingress and egress to the ground for these games… I imagine that would enhance the home fan experience.

It’s impossible as it is with the current stands but if we were to change to Main and Ormond then I wonder if the away fan access could be only from the blue gates and then funnelled down the back of the North stand and round to the East.

Wouldn’t completely segregate fans as there will be a decent chunk of OF fans that walk to games from Letham etc.

[RandomGuy]

Taking the money chasing the "achievement" of finishing as high up the table as possible, to the detriment of your regular match going fans thoughts/ideals, is what's led to the EPL being filled with 70% soulless bowls of tourists paying £150 a ticket treating finishing 4th like a trophy.

I don't want Scottish football being like that.

[mike_gain]

8 minutes ago, RandomGuy said:

Taking the money chasing the "achievement" of finishing as high up the table as possible, to the detriment of your regular match going fans thoughts/ideals, is what's led to the EPL being filled with 70% soulless bowls of tourists paying £150 a ticket treating finishing 4th like a trophy.

I don't want Scottish football being like that.

Agreed, happy for club to try and find revenue streams but I don't see giving the old firm extra seats as sustainable. Does us no good to alienate fans.

I'd happily pay more for a season ticket if it meant we binned this 3 stands idea.

[PerthSaint01]

There absolutely has to be away to sell tickets to these games at a cheaper price for home fans. Dundee did recently as part of a two match package.

I wonder if you could have some sort of match package where these games are essentially priced at £15-18 per game to entice more home fans.

I am slightly concerned that the only real idea to get more home fans in this far, has been to give away free tickets… there should absolutely have been a deal in place for the Ross County game next week.

Same goes for the home split games, if we’re still in the battle, then those games should be priced to get as big a home crowd in as possibly to rally the team.

[sane_tee]

38 minutes ago, PerthSaint01 said:

I do wonder if there’s a way of completely segregating ingress and egress to the ground for these games… I imagine that would enhance the home fan experience.

It’s impossible as it is with the current stands but if we were to change to Main and Ormond then I wonder if the away fan access could be only from the blue gates and then funnelled down the back of the North stand and round to the East.

Wouldn’t completely segregate fans as there will be a decent chunk of OF fans that walk to games from Letham etc.

Since I've been thinking about how the club will deal with the OF games going forward, I also thought that us having the Main and Ormond Stands makes more sense than giving them 3 stands. They only get the Main stand because of the disabled access, so they'll get that with the East stand. Keep them in the North and East and, as you say, keep them largely segregated from us coming from and going to the game. And, more importantly, I think anyway, we get our own fans behind the goal. 

 

I know it makes financial sense to keep the Ormond Stand closed during these times while crowds are low, but I think fans should be behind the goal IMHO. But for away fans to be behind both goals - that's ludicrous 

[blueheaven]

I still say we should be doing more to make use of the Ormond Stand on matchdays. Make it the community stand and give free tickets to different groups each week - charities one week, schools another week, NHS workers another week, etc etc. Doesn't need to be done every single week but I'd like to see it done more often for the less appealing games where we're unlikely to get big crowds. It made such a difference with the Aberdeen game at the start of the season but if you only do it once I don't feel you gain any momentum from it in terms of building up attendances and gradually growing the fanbase.

[Gekko]

1 hour ago, sane_tee said:

They only get the Main stand because of the disabled access, so they'll get that with the East stand.

Does the East Stand have disabled access? I thought it was only in the Main/GB Stand?

[PSJ.84]

3 minutes ago, Gekko said:

Does the East Stand have disabled access? I thought it was only in the Main/GB Stand?

Disabled access at the Ormond End of the East. 

[sane_tee]

55 minutes ago, blueheaven said:

I still say we should be doing more to make use of the Ormond Stand on matchdays. Make it the community stand and give free tickets to different groups each week - charities one week, schools another week, NHS workers another week, etc etc. Doesn't need to be done every single week but I'd like to see it done more often for the less appealing games where we're unlikely to get big crowds. It made such a difference with the Aberdeen game at the start of the season but if you only do it once I don't feel you gain any momentum from it in terms of building up attendances and gradually growing the fanbase.

Personally, I'd have my Ormond Stand season ticket back in a heartbeat. I just liked sitting behind the goal, but it's been more than 20 years since I sat in there.

As for utilising it, I wondered if it would be viable to adapt it in a way to help the elderly and less-abled folks. It gives me the absolute fear seeing some of these old boys and girls going up and down the stairs with nothing to hold on to for support. Even get a team of volunteers to assist, regardless of which stand they're in. I'd help.

 

[Gekko]

10 minutes ago, sane_tee said:

Personally, I'd have my Ormond Stand season ticket back in a heartbeat. I just liked sitting behind the goal, but it's been more than 20 years since I sat in there.

As for utilising it, I wondered if it would be viable to adapt it in a way to help the elderly and less-abled folks. It gives me the absolute fear seeing some of these old boys and girls going up and down the stairs with nothing to hold on to for support. Even get a team of volunteers to assist, regardless of which stand they're in. I'd help.

 

My first season ticket at McDiarmid was in the Ormond. Right at the back in the middle. A great view.

We got decent crowds back then. I remember a first division, now Championship game against Hamilton on a Tuesday night, pulled in 7 and a half thousand. They brought a big support as well.

Yeah, the Ormond could be used like a community hub. Free tickets for schoolchildren etc.

I know they've done stuff like this before with face painting, pumpkin carving and the like. It was always the family stand with no swearing. It'd be good if it was like this again. It's all down to the numbers who would actually go I guess.

ETA: The disabled facilities at Celtic Park are excellent. You get a lift right up to your seats. When I say seats, if you're the carer, you get a chair given to you next to the person you're caring for, who presumably will be in a wheelchair. A great view, a cafe and fully functional disabled toilets. I doff my cap to them, they do it well.

Now obviously we can't afford to go to the extent that they have done, but maybe something similar in the Ormond? The lift does make a big difference.

Edited February 6 by Gekko

[sane_tee]

And if Adam Webb manages to reverse the beer ban, the Ormond Stand could be the beer-free stand. I don't want to get covered in beer at a football game, so I'd like somewhere to sit that prevents that from happening.

[Gekko]

 

14 minutes ago, sane_tee said:

And if Adam Webb manages to reverse the beer ban, the Ormond Stand could be the beer-free stand. I don't want to get covered in beer at a football game, so I'd like somewhere to sit that prevents that from happening.

On the subject of alcohol during the game, any of us who have experienced the nightmare of the OF fans giving us serious grief and looking for a rammy during a game, the thought of what they'd be like if they got their hands on booze during it is a nightmare.

I've attended games in England where it's the norm, bit I think it's different in Scotland.

When I was younger at Muirton, we were playing Rangers, it must have been around 1975. I was in the centre stand at the front, just next to where the directors box was. There was a bunch of Rangers fans at the top of the stand with their carry outs.

We scored first, and I jumped up and cheered. The next thing, I had at least three beer bottles chucked at me. They all missed me but hit the wooden wall in front of me and smashed. It's only good fortune that the shards didn't do any damage.

I was just a young lad for crying out loud, 6 or 7 years old, I got a real shock.

That's what they were like with their booze. They were the same then as they are today. They're tanked up before they come in anyway. You see them downing it all around the ground before games.

And if anybody has had the misfortune of driving through Glasgow after an old firm game, you'll know what I'm talking about. Battles on every corner. It's like a warzone.

Nah, I'm not sure I support this beer at the game idea. I'm sure we can manage without it for a couple of hours.

[Gekko]

One more thing, remember when that young lass was attacked by Celtic fans in the North Stand when she was working at the kiosk? She was only 14.

Can you imagine how worse it would be if they were all getting tanked up during the game?

I like a beer as much as anybody, but it's a no from me during the game.