The Gruesome Twosome Debate

[Aitchy]

Its a debate this has been spoken about on here since this forum began and its rearing its head again. Should we give three stands to Rangers and Celtic when we play them at McDiarmid?

Its certainly looks like that is the plan giving the words coming from the fans forum and our CEO's comments in The Courier today. Fran Smith states that by giving Rangers and Celtic three stands it would make the club an extra £75,000 per match (wages for approximately three players).

In an ideal world we would not need to do it, but home crowds at these games over the past few years have demonstrated that there is very little attitude from our supporters to attend these games. The kick off times to accommodate TV, the poisonous atmosphere inside and outside of the ground and the fact we often struggle in these games means that many choose not to attend. Giving them three stands was common place in the 90's and early 00's and despite having fewer fans in our ground we still managed to achieve some famous results again both of them at a time when both their squads were considerable stronger than they were now. 

I was vocal against the decision to give Rangers three stands for our Scottish Cup game against them a couple of seasons ago as it was sprung upon as a support without any consultation and the fact that it was a one off game in a competition we had been successful in in recent seasons. I would like to think moving forward if we were to play them in either of the cups at McDiarmid that we would give them the minimum allocation and try to promote the game to our own supporters. In the league, I am not completely against giving them both three stands if it is going to benefit us financially.

I know that others have quite rightly pointed to St Mirren and Killie as examples of clubs that have reduced allocations to Rangers and Celtic which has resulted in an increase in home attendances, but is that something that is going to realistic for us? The club have tried offering incentives such as reduced entry to friends of season tickets holders for these games, but I just don't see there being any appetite amongst enough people to make it financially viable for us.

Thoughts?

[sixties saintee]

Cannae blame the fans fir staying awa against these two.

I blame the club, stewards , police fir turning a blind eye, it would cause to much trouble tae remove them fae the home end and remove there banners.

Gie them the 3 stands and sting the barstewards.

[crieffsaintandy]

Give them three stands didn’t make any difference in the late 90s and all saints in the main rather than spread out made it a bit better atmosphere. My feeling a lot of moaning goes on about this and people have their reasons for not turning up, but why waste valuable income that might just help us stay up, personally I find both cheeks a bit of a side show goes in one ear out the other, sad state of affairs, but it’s a three for me!

[slf]

Leave it as is for cup matches .

 

if we’re in the same league then for league games give them the whole ground.that way we can turn the volume down on telly and watch or switch of at our leisure.

9 times out of ten it’s one sided anyway. 

 

[RandomGuy]

Fran Smith admitting they can't do anything about them draping flags all over the place and standing where they want in the stands because "it's more bother than it's worth" probably sums up my feelings on how many of them I want to share a ground with.

I'm dead against rewarding their behaviour by increasing their numbers and giving them our stands, but it's pretty clear the club are going to do so it so I just can't be arsed debating it anymore.

Removing these games from season tickets would drop the home support even further.

[Saints17]

Haven’t looked at exact number of tickets they get normally but my thoughts would be if we are going to give them say 4500 then we would be as well giving them 7000. Feel like you either decide to restrict them to one stand and take the financial hit or cash in as much as possible. Seems no real point of having 4500 of them there and still being outnumbered but leaving empty seats and losing out financially too. 

[Radford 72]

Two things don't sit well with me.

One has been covered and is the way Ian Flaherty, aka Flax, handled the situation a couple of years ago. This was our first home cup game after winning the double and we should have been making a real push to boost the home support. Instead, they snuck out an announcement at 5:00pm on Friday IIRC then all went home for the weekend. The whole thing felt like a kick in the teeth and they paid the price.

That doesn't really impact the situation now though but what does is what happened at Hampden Park in August. I don't want to speak for Bev or her family but I still find the whole thing abhorrent. Rangers FC couldn't even have the decency to release a public condemnation through their website, instead an unnamed individual gave a few words to the Glasgow press. And their players and manager actually went and celebrated with the group involved after the game.

I'd find it VERY hard to stomach their support essentially being rewarded after all that happened and I say that was someone who was previously probably in favour of giving them three stands. Actions have to have consequences and IMO there shouldn't have been a single Rangers supporter coming to McDiarmid Park next week.

It's fine talking about an extra £75,000 for a player and hopefully we have a good manager in the building but it's only a positive thing or an advantage if it is well spent.

On the fence at the moment as still bothered about what happened in August.

[lindz105]

In full agreement with this. I would also have loved the club to take a stance for the up coming Rangers game. So much of what happened that day is beyond forgivable but as Radford says, Rangers FC couldn’t even be bothered to issue a proper statement and the “indeterminate” bans are just an insult. Someone does that it’s a lifetime ban and nothing else. Those that were at Hampden all knew what had happened by half time so it wouldn't have been hard to communicate it to their players and managers yet they still went over and celebrated their controversial win with those mutants. The fact we are welcoming them back to our home without any apparent consequence doesn’t sit well and in fact, if anything, we look like we are rewarding them by giving up more of our home. 
 

However, we can’t win, cut the allocation right back for one game and see if more home fans turn up or accept defeat and cash in. I reported the fact a Celtic beast in his 40’s was giving the wanker/fingers etc sign to a bunch of kids, some as young as 6, and took a photo of him but the stewards and Police said it was for the club to deal with. There is zero consequence for their behaviour and that’s why people won’t go. 
 

If we fleece them and give over the east stand then we will at least get the seats replaced with blue and white ones sooner than planned. 
 

Cup games should NEVER have increased away allocations even just from a sporting advantage perspective. 

[RandomGuy]

6 minutes ago, lindz105 said:

The fact we are welcoming them back to our home without any apparent consequence doesn’t sit well and in fact, if anything, we look like we are rewarding them by giving up more of our home. 

Celtic and Rangers blogs are already on social media celebrating them getting more stands as a victory, with plenty of jibes about how their crowds and money have been what funded our achievements over the past decade+ and how it's clear we rely on them to keep surviving as a club.

But hey, at least we can afford another Cammy MacPherson and Josh McPake.

[Valakari oh oh]

Sell them the tickets to get the money but don't let them in 🤣

[Saintdunc]

Relegation will fix this conundrum!

[THE LARK SAINT]

53 minutes ago, Saintdunc said:

Relegation will fix this conundrum!

Give it a rest.. boring now !

[PSJ.84]

Whether it’s just because it feels inevitable or not, I’m a lot more accepting of it now than I have been in the past, but to be looking to do this after one game against them this season, despite the noise about wanting to grow the home support, doesn’t send a great message. However, I don’t know if there’s much else that can be done - I’m certainly not intuitive enough to be coming up with ideas, so it’s a bit unfair to criticise. 

[RandomGuy]

10 hours ago, PSJ.84 said:

Whether it’s just because it feels inevitable or not, I’m a lot more accepting of it now than I have been in the past, but to be looking to do this after one game against them this season, despite the noise about wanting to grow the home support, doesn’t send a great message. However, I don’t know if there’s much else that can be done - I’m certainly not intuitive enough to be coming up with ideas, so it’s a bit unfair to criticise. 

It's fairly obvious that the home support will never increase for these games while there's a vile atmosphere in the stadium and a threatening one outside of it.

There's an easy solution to reduce that but it was clear from the very start (this Summers announcement about allocations was directed at Celtic/Rangers fans and guaranteeing them no reductions, despite them misreading it) that it's not under consideration because, ultimately, money will always come befofe fans for clubs. Honestly so disappointing after the noise about how much the new ownership wants to be different from the old at connecting with the support, but also not surprising in the slightest.

Females being attacked by groups of men outside one of these games and they still care more about the balance sheet. When the crowd drops v Rangers because female supporters on their own don't go then the club better not use that as an excuse to justify the allocation change, but we all know they will. 

[chips]

I accepted it many years ago, like others have said they create a horrendous atmosphere anyway,whether it's 4500 of them or 7000. 

I get the arguments for/against this but realistically it's going to happen, it's clear that home fan numbers drop when playing against them. So may as well "cash in"

I was chatting to an east stand season ticket holder recently, he is adamant that he will not be giving up "his seat". I'm intrigued as how he can stop this apart from taking some tools to the next match and taking "his seat" home with him 🤔

[MySpazz]

Supporting the club to sell as many tickets as possible is your way of further contributing to the club, beyond your season ticket.

Let me ask season ticket holders a question: If you cannot make a match, or miss one - are you okay with the club reselling your ticket?

It's not the club against season ticket holders; it's the club against big money teams who we must then compete against and take their money to do that. 

Be realistic, people. We have an owner who is in the fight for life - we will need to find a new owner - and we will face tougher times than today in the coming years as the stadium truly ages, a new owner is needed, the league improves, and we cannot be left behind, which is what will happen. At least stay solvent by taking tough decisions.

 

 

[blueheaven]

As a collective support we have it in our power to buy tickets and fill those seats, so that there would be no decision for the club to make. If we were to all do that, it would solve a lot of the other problems that come with these matches too, because there'd be far fewer OF fans there to cause trouble or make a bad atmosphere.

We could fill the East Stand, Ormond Stand and half the Geoff Brown Stand with Saints fans. There are enough of us to do that. The club has said it's going to give us a couple more chances to do that. But we all know that it's just not going to happen. And sure, there are loads of completely legitimate reasons why people don't want to go, but the fact remains that the ball is in our court and we could change this for the better if all of us really, really wanted to.

So I don't think it's fair to say the club is putting money before the fans. The seats are there for the fans to buy, and we're not buying them. Besides, as a fan I want the club to have money. I want the club to make as much money as possible so that they can build a better product for me, a fan, to enjoy. If that means £75,000 x 3 or x 4 for the next couple of years, and an improvement in the squad, I'll be fine with that.

Assuming the fans continue to stay away from the next couple of OF games, I think the club needs to get its messaging right and explain that filling more seats for those games in future will give us 3 or 4 better players in the squad for each season and that's in everyone's interests. If that gets us into a position where we're doing well again and crowds are up, then they could always take another look at the OF ticketing scenario a couple of years down the line. At that point, let the fans know that they desperately want to fill these games with home fans so they're trying again. But for the time being I just don't think that's going to happen.

[That_Dave]

The other side of this debate is the ticket prices. £33 for old firm games is excessive. I get that we want to fleece their fans, and have to charge both set of fans the same. So do we:

a) Treat it like a normal league game, with normal prices and give the number away ends

b) Treat it like a fundraiser, with excessive prices and selling tickets to whoever is prepared to pay the prices.

I don't see why charging excessive prices and not maximising that income is the right option.

Also, you can only buy a ticket for old firm games if you've purchased tickets for non-old firm games. So I can buy my dad a ticket as I always buy them, but my dad couldn't buy a ticket on his own for the game. No-one can use the old firm matches as their first introduction to Saints. I appreciate there's a need to stop Rangers/Celtic fans buying tickets, but if you buy a single ticket for the St Mirren game and don't turn up you're guaranteed to buy a bunch of tickets for every old firm match. Allowing multiple match purchases at the normal rate for three home games, which can only be used for 1 old firm game, might be a way around that.

So on one hand, the club are asking us to turn up next week to justify not giving Rangers more tickets, but at the time they're charging £33 (for a game on Sky) and making it difficult for some people to buy tickets. A little more thought is needed on how to attract people without season tickets to fill the stadium is needed.

[glenrothes saintee]

Weather permitting and if I get out my scratcher in time, I will pop up for Sevco game. It will be my first game in years against one of the ugly sisters.

Edited November 24 by glenrothes saintee

[slf]

1 hour ago, glenrothes saintee said:

Weather permitting and if I get out my scratcher in time, I will pop up for Sevco game. It will be my first game in years against one of the ugly sisters.

Good on ye .

 

 

[slf]

6 hours ago, That_Dave said:

The other side of this debate is the ticket prices. £33 for old firm games is excessive. I get that we want to fleece their fans, and have to charge both set of fans the same. So do we:

a) Treat it like a normal league game, with normal prices and give the number away ends

b) Treat it like a fundraiser, with excessive prices and selling tickets to whoever is prepared to pay the prices.

I don't see why charging excessive prices and not maximising that income is the right option.

Also, you can only buy a ticket for old firm games if you've purchased tickets for non-old firm games. So I can buy my dad a ticket as I always buy them, but my dad couldn't buy a ticket on his own for the game. No-one can use the old firm matches as their first introduction to Saints. I appreciate there's a need to stop Rangers/Celtic fans buying tickets, but if you buy a single ticket for the St Mirren game and don't turn up you're guaranteed to buy a bunch of tickets for every old firm match. Allowing multiple match purchases at the normal rate for three home games, which can only be used for 1 old firm game, might be a way around that.

So on one hand, the club are asking us to turn up next week to justify not giving Rangers more tickets, but at the time they're charging £33 (for a game on Sky) and making it difficult for some people to buy tickets. A little more thought is needed on how to attract people without season tickets to fill the stadium is needed.

33 quid tae feel miserable.

And 9 times out of 10 it’s a one sided game .

can’t think of many who want to take the club on that.

 

I got a season ticket and a whole row that I am in is empty except for me at rangers/celtic games.

Give them the whole ground.and we can have the day off.

[Dav69]

5 hours ago, glenrothes saintee said:

Weather permitting and if I get out my scratcher in time, I will pop up for Sevco game. It will be my first game in years against one of the ugly sisters.

I witnessed the James Brown 2-1 rocket but the time before that was Albertz and Co 98? 3-1 us  . Main Stand with all other Saintees fans and the usual red/white/ blue amongst us. That was my final straw. Same with Celtic was probably Keith O’halloran header 97? Apart from 2014 , last time at Parkhead was 2-0 them to win the league back in the 90,s. Actually looked at this Sunday but £33 , no chance !!!! BTW try they will beat them 2-0 and Clement will be gone . Despise them both PERIOD 

[GOB10]

As said a few posts back, its in our own hands if we dont want them getting the extra stand.. simply buy the tickets and go to the game. I get that its usually a one sided game and 80% of their fans are scumbags but we have a team to support and a new manager whos made it clear football is all about the fans, he deserves the fans turning up for that, it cant be one sided. Need to get on the social media and make a push to get the tickets sold.. its not hard to create a bit of buzz in perth!. I dont always enjoy it against the oldfirm but I'll defo be there hoping for the upset! And we are capable of causing it!

[GMac]

I think a lot of the issue is for too many years we haven't laid a glove on either of them, folk just stopped going as they had a fair idea of the outcome.   Very few victories and a few humpings along the way.  Sunday is our chance to redress that balance, get right in aboot thum.  I'm goin.  

[Ginger Bakers rebel army]

Hearts charge thdm £38.50 including £1.50 booking fee.

£40 a ticket sounds about right.

Cant see us loosing on Sunday, Sevco in France, 8 pm ko on Thursday night, surely that gives us an advantage.