Silly foreigners

[Calinho]

(spot the obvious problem)

[anglesdavidson]

My mate who will remain un named turned up to his first Scotland away trip with his kilt on back to front claiming it was dark when he put it on!

[Ronaldo]

Apart from the obvious flaw .....

The kilt is fantastic! I wore one at my own wedding and about most everyone else's if it's an all day wedding but I prefer the original highland dress. How has Kev managed 500 consecutive games? He must have avoied all day Saturday weddings in April, May, August and September. I can think of a few I'd like to have avoide, one in particular.

The ironic thing is though that after living in the Highlands (better not tell the 22) they think and I agree that the original highalnd dress has been watered down to a trendy fashion item. Their thoughts go something like this quote.

As early as the twelfth century Highland warriors were described as being "bare-legged, with shaggy cloaks and a scrip [small bag] …†Such dress was, at that time, confined to the Highlands, as Scottish Lowlanders considered such apparel as barbarous, referring with contempt to their Highland kinsmen as “redshanksÂâ€!

Kilts of that time were very basic garments that required no tailoring and comprised a single piece of tartan cloth some two yards in width by four or six yards in length. This was commonly referred to as the Breacan, the Feileadh Bhreacain and the Feileadh Mor – or as the English called it The Big Kilt. It fell down to the knees and was secured over the left shoulder with a broach or pin and a tight belt gathered it all around the waist.

Such dress was ideally suited to the climate and terrain of the Highlands. It allowed freedom of movement, the tightly woven woollen cloth was warm and waterproof, unwrapped it could provide a voluminous cloak against the weather or a comfortable overnight blanket, it dried out quickly and with much less discomfort than trousers. But unlike trousers, the kilt could not provide pockets and so the sporran was born out of necessity. A survival of the medieval purse, the sporran was the Highlander's pocket they didnÂ’t have.

As long as your happy and that guy looks fair pleased wi himself.

[carhartt-saintee]

they think and I agree that the original highalnd dress has been watered down to a trendy fashion item. Their thoughts go something like this quote.

from the QI book:-

the elaborate system of clan tartans is a complete myth stemming from the early nineteenth century. All highland dress, including what tartan or plaid there was, was banned after the 1745 rebellion. The english garrison regiments started designing their own tartans as an affectation, and to mark the state visit of King George IV to edinburgh in 1822. Queen victoria encouraged the trend, and it soon became a victorian craze.

also, kilts were invented by the irish but the word "kilt" is danish in origin- from "kilte op", "tuck up".

[Victor]

(spot the obvious problem)

Tut tut, no kilt pin.

[Steve Maskrey]

Tut tut, no kilt pin.

He could very well be wearing the kilt pin but its difficult to be sure if he's wearing the kilt back to front

[Victor]

He could very well be wearing the kilt pin but its difficult to be sure if he's wearing the kilt back to front

Oops

[saintydave]

anglesdavidson Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:04 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My mate who will remain un named turned up to his first Scotland away trip with his kilt on back to front claiming it was dark when he put it on!

did he have a cigar with him??

[Ronaldo]

....... and Happy St.Patrick's Day to you.

As I stated on another thread I prefer the minimalist approach but I do wear the kilt to weddings. However you have repeated much of what I've said and imagined the rest. Some other nations did wear similar garments from time to time but never as prevelant as in the Highlands of Scotland.

Yes the original Highland dress was not the current kilt, it was a tartan/patterned one piece garment part of which was thrown over the shoulder as seen in Braveheart. It wasn't the English that banned the wearing of Highland dress it was the British with a large proportion of that army including lowland Scots. Yes this was directed by Cumberland who was in charge of these troops but was as much carried out by lowland Sots as English troops. There was much sympathy about this treatment in London and Edinburgh and the sympathisers in the latter city and elsewhere created tartan garments much more similar to today's kilts. However the kilt is Scottish and not Irish, you're thinking of Leprauchans and little elfs to be sure.

Next you'll be telling me that Ireland got independence in 1314 and not 1920, that the Irish were actually at the battle of Stirling Bridge etc. just as in the film Braveheart - NO that was just for the American audiences and as a concession to the Irish Film Board where a couple of the flat earth senes were filmed. You'll also be telling me that the Irish invented Television, the Telephone, penicillin, created the origins of Economic theory with the 'Wealth Of Nations' and too much more to list here ...

The Mark of the Scots: Their Astonishing Contributions to History, Science, Democracy, Literature and the Arts -

Click

How the Scots Invented the Modern World - Click

The Scottish Enlightenment - Click

The Irish didn't even invent the potato, however they do make whisky (whiskey) like us and they have always exported humans like ourselves - an Irish priest initiated Celtic football club and there are lots of New York police and fire officers with Irish origins.

[carhartt-saintee]

....... and Happy St.Patrick's Day to you.

As I stated on another thread I prefer the minimalist approach but I do wear the kilt to weddings. However you have repeated much of what I've said and imagined the rest. Some other nations did wear similar garments from time to time but never as prevelant as in the Highlands of Scotland.

Yes the original Highland dress was not the current kilt, it was a tartan/patterned one piece garment part of which was thrown over the shoulder as seen in Braveheart. It wasn't the English that banned the wearing of Highland dress it was the British with a large proportion of that army including lowland Scots. Yes this was directed by Cumberland who was in charge of these troops but was as much carried out by lowland Sots as English troops. There was much sympathy about this treatment in London and Edinburgh and the sympathisers in the latter city and elsewhere created tartan garments much more similar to today's kilts. However the kilt is Scottish and not Irish, you're thinking of Leprauchans and little elfs to be sure.

Next you'll be telling me that Ireland got independence in 1314 and not 1920, that the Irish were actually at the battle of Stirling Bridge etc. just as in the film Braveheart - NO that was just for the American audiences and as a concession to the Irish Film Board where a couple of the flat earth senes were filmed. You'll also be telling me that the Irish invented Television, the Telephone, penicillin, created the origins of Economic theory with the 'Wealth Of Nations' and too much more to list here ...

The Mark of the Scots: Their Astonishing Contributions to History, Science, Democracy, Literature and the Arts -

Click

How the Scots Invented the Modern World - Click

The Scottish Enlightenment - Click

The Irish didn't even invent the potato, however they do make whisky (whiskey) like us and they have always exported humans like ourselves - an Irish priest initiated Celtic football club and there are lots of New York police and fire officers with Irish origins.

[Linky]

Apparently the Irish invented the kilt, the Chinese invented whiskey & the Indians invented the bagpipes.............well, nevermind, at least we invented marmalade.

[StDuncM]

Apparently the Irish invented the kilt, the Chinese invented whiskey & the Indians invented the bagpipes.............well, nevermind, at least we invented marmalade.

....and Scotts invented porridge before Quakers did!

[anglesdavidson]

did he have a cigar with him??

Absolutely

[Ronaldo]

carhartt-saintee I think myths have developed in the modern age but most seem to be detracting from Scotland. Although the Irish had loose wearing garments they didn't wear tartan, later the kilt.

Fascinating Facts – Fact or Fiction?

By Matthew A. C. Newsome

This article was published in the October 2003 issue of the Scottish Banner.

In an article published in the August 2003 issue of the Scottish Banner, entitled, “More Fascinating Facts About Tartan,†the author, David Keith, contributes much to the myth and misinformation circulating about the history of Highland Dress. I do not hold Mr. Keith personally accountable. In all likelihood he is simply passing on what was presented to him as the truth.

From the get go, he makes the mistake often repeated in early histories of the tartan by making reference to the Brehon Laws, which stipulated the number of stripes worn to indicate the rank of the wearer. Many today erroneously apply this to tartan – in other words, the more stripes in a clan’s tartan, the higher “rank†the clan was. (This would mean, of course, that poor Rob Roy would have been the lowest peasant, while the Earl of Airlie would have been the King of Kings!) The problem is that these Brehon Laws existed in Ireland, not Scotland, and dealt with striped ceremonial cloaks, not tartan of any kind. Yet this reference is repeated often enough that many take it to be true.

Keith further states that the earliest reference to tartan cloth in Scotland comes from thirteenth century Episcopal documents from Aberdeen, which state that all clerics are to “avoid red, green, or striped clothing.†The problem is that nowhere in the quoted text is tartan even mentioned. Tartan is not synonymous with “striped.†There are many types of cloths that can be striped without being tartan. Tartan is created from the unique repetition of a striped design in both the warp and weft of the cloth. A reference to a cloth simply being “striped†does not always mean tartan!

Keith no doubt selected this reference to give tartan in Scotland an early date, but unfortunately he did not mention the earliest piece of tartan cloth that has been found in Scotland, the so-called “Falkirk Tartan,†believed to date from between 250 and 325 AD, which would have more than proven his point.

When discussing the belted plaid (the earliest form of the kilt worn from the late sixteenth century to the mid-eighteenth), he correctly identifies it as an untailored length of tartan cloth, gathered and belted around the waist, but mistakenly asserts that “great care†was taken to ensure that “the sett or pattern was displayed properly.†What he is referring to is “pleating to the sett,†meaning that the sett (short for “setting,†or pattern of the tartan) is repeated in the pleating of the kilt. This form of pleating did not come into fashion until rather late in the nineteenth century, long after the Highlander had abandoned the belted plaid of old!

As a matter of fact, when arranging the belted plaid, it is more accurate to think of the cloth as being loosely gathered rather than pleated. It certainly was not anything like the neatly pressed knife pleats of todayÂ’s tailored kilts, and the repetition of a specific pattern in the pleats was not even a consideration.

Regarding the next generation of the kilt, the feileadh-beag, or “little kilt,†we are again treated to some misinformation. Keith asserts that the phillabeg (as it is often Anglicized) was “made of six ells [yards] of tartan, pleated and sewn†and “looked very much like the kilt as we know it today.†Further, he states that it “had developed at least by the early 17th century.Ââ€

The true feileadh-beag (literally, “little wrapÂâ€) was simply the lower half of the feileadh-mhor (“big wrapÂâ€), or belted plaid. It contained, on average, four yards of cloth, and like the belted plaid, was simply gathered around the waist and belted on. Instead of an equal amount of cloth above and below the waist, the upper part of the phillabeg simply hung over the belt a few inches to secure it into place. This very simple garment could possibly (and I stress that word) have developed sometime during the seventeenth century, and most definitely was worn in the early-to-mid eighteenth century. Certainly it is overstating the case to claim that had developed “at least by the early 17th century†as Mr. Keith does in his article.

In any case, the phillabeg most definitely was not a tailored garment, as Keith claims when he says it was “pleated and sewn.†The pleats of the phillabeg were not sewn in!

The first tailoring of the kilt (where the pleats were sewn in) was not done until the 1790Â’s. Even then, the first tailored kilts contained only four yards of cloth. They were box pleated, either to the stripe (in the military) or to no pattern at all (for civilian wear). Knife pleating and pleating to the sett, as I said earlier, did not come into fashion until the latter part of the nineteenth century. This fashion required more yards of cloth, increasing the amount used in most civilian kilts to about eight.

Keith repeats another myth when he discusses the “ancient†and “modern†colors used in tartans. This one is so often repeated and taken for gospel that one can hardly blame him. Most people aware of the distinction between the ancient and modern colors are told, as Keith repeats, that the light ancient colors reflect the colors available with natural vegetable dyes, whereas the dark modern colors reflect the colors available with modern chemical dyes.

This is not entirely accurate, as anyone who practices the art of natural dying could tell you. Dark colors are most certainly obtainable with natural dyes! However, without modern day chemicals the cloth was not as color fast, and as a piece of tartan aged, it would naturally fade a bit. The color in these older (“ancientÂâ€) pieces of tartan cloth would be lighter in hue. So when we see a tartan produced in the ancient color scheme, it is merely meant to reflect a piece of tartan that has faded a bit with age. Like “stone washed jeans†the tartan is newly made to look old.

In general, KeithÂ’s article can easily confuse readers with imprecise dating and confusing context. For example, without dating it he mentions the Clergy tartan of blue, black and white. The use of the Clergy tartan can actually be dated to the mid-nineteenth century. However, the context of his reference was the Reformation in Scotland (sixteenth century) and shortly after this he makes reference to tartan in the fifteenth century. This context could certainly lead one to believe that the Clergy tartan is much older than it actually is.

Similar confusion arises from his brief discussion of the differences between a manÂ’s kilt and a ladyÂ’s kilted skirt and the development of the clan tartan system. He glosses over much without making reference to any pertinent details (mention of WilsonÂ’s of Bannockburn is completely absent in his brief treatment of clan tartans), which serves only to keep the history of tartan in the realm of legend and myth for most readers.

As all things Scottish continue to grow in popularity, more people are looking into the authentic history of ScotlandÂ’s national garb. As historians are providing us with more and more accurate research about tartan and the kilt, itÂ’s high time to put some of these myths to rest. Since accurate information about the history of Highland Dress is more readily available now than ever before, the Scottish Banner and other Scottish publications should take care before they publish such stories that they are contributing to scholarship, and not myth.

Is this really Chit Chat?

[Saintkev]

How has Kev managed 500 consecutive games? He must have avoied all day Saturday weddings in April, May, August and September.

Folk know me now... I just get invited to evenings! I missed one wedding for a pre-season freindly in Carlisle... I really was that sad! To be fair though, when I got there at night, everyone wanted the update, so I was kind of providing a service!

[Ronaldo]

Folk know me now... I just get invited to evenings! I missed one wedding for a pre-season freindly in Carlisle... I really was that sad! To be fair though, when I got there at night, everyone wanted the update, so I was kind of providing a service!

I don't blame you Kev. Even when just invited to the evening part I've missed one because I was celebrating Saints winning the 1st division.

[Ronaldo]

I would like to apologise Carhartt Saintee on the basis that my reaction may have been taken the wrong way and a bit strong.

It was really just a build up over a number of years and the situation wasn't so bad when I was a kid. I'm not sure if the Irish immigrant families or people from other countries understand the frustration that some Scots have with their adaptation or alteration of what is Scottish by their own skewed views. I may have used racial stereotypes in my defence but I felt I had to do that since Scotland's history and characteristics are challenged by the Irish or so called Irish living in Scotland. I think we should unite under the Scottish flag (in or out of the Union) equally and have different roots if that's the case. So my comments were really the consequence of all that and against those that imply that Scotland is somehow doing institutionally wrong things Obviously if anybody is Irish that's fair enough but people born here of an Irish background are actually Irish Scots just like ancestors of Irish immigrants in America are Irish Americans. They aren't just Irish who have a grudge about the nation they live in and sing "We Shall Not Be Moved".

Here is a small example of what I mean -

Scottish Perception:

The Lisbon Lions were the Celtic team which won the Champions League (European Cup). They were ALL Scottish and eight of them played for Scotland at various periods. They were Scottish champions and European champions.

Manager: Jock Stein, born Burnbank, South Lanarkshire, Scotland Click

1. Ronnie Simpson (Goalkeeper), born Glasgow, Scotland
   
2. Jim Craig (Right back), born Glasgow, Scotland
   
3. Tommy Gemmell (Left wing back), born Motherwell, Scotland
   
4. Bobby Murdoch (Right half), born Rutherglen, Glasgow, Scotland
   
5. Billy McNeill (Captain, Centre half), born Bellshill, Lanarkshire, Scotland
   
6. John Clark (Left half), born Larkhall, Lanarkshire, Scotland
   
7. Jimmy Johnstone (Outside right), born Viewpark, South Lanarkshire, Scotland
   
8. Willie Wallace (Inside right), born Kirkintilloch, Scotland
   
9. Stevie Chalmers (Centre forward), born Glasgow, Scotland
   
10. Bertie Auld (Inside left), born Glasgow, Scotland
    
11. Bobby Lennox (Outside left), born Salcoats, Ayrshire, Sotland

Celtic V Inter Milan 1967 - commentary by Kenneth Wolstenholme (England) just to be neutral. Click

The Irish perception:

Celtic are part of Ireland and merely located here to play in Scotland.

- Celtic Lisbon lions 1967 Tribute Click

- A triumphant celebration of Celtic FC, team of the Irish Catholics in Scotland.

- The great jimmy johnstone

I know what I mean.

[Dev]

Sorry to take this further off-topic but isn't that wee John?!

Looks like his taller brother or something!

[Ronaldo]

Yes that's wee 'BIG' John, a silly foreign relative.

There, back on topic.

.... and as for the silly Scottish people who think they're Irish.

Woops.