Nick Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Should people live their lives so that they don't antagonise morons? The guy is English and was wearing an England shirt on the day of an England game and long may he continue to do so. If you don't do something because you're scared that you might piss someone off then you let them and their neanderthal attitudes win. I was living down south during the last world cup and to great pride in wearing my Scotland shirt around the place and I never got any trouble (other than the obvious 'you're shite' stuff). I've worn Scotland tops in England aswell, but in my oppinion flying a "needless" flag out the window of my car in a rival country is one step to far and is asking for trouble. You would call a Celtic fan "stupid" for flying an Ireland flag through a Rangers area in Glasgow. Obviously thats not the best of comparisons, comparing this with those sectarian arseholes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corned Beef Posted June 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 But nobody has said they were from the Tartan Army! The Edinburgh aasailant had a Rangers shirt on and nobody knows what the Aberdeen one was wearing. What is being said here is that it is unfair to tar the Tartan Army who do more good than any English fanclub, with these unprovoked attacks. What Tony Blair does not realise is that, just because someone is a Scottish football fan it doesn't mean they are part of the Tartan Army. What doesnt help is when idiots like this send stupid letters to the Scottish national papers Aye but over the years the genuine England fans have been tarred with the same brush as the folk looking for a fight. So why is it an outrage that the number of attacks on England fans allegedly by Scotsmen are said to besmirch the good name of the tartan army, when we are only happy to slag off the entire England support for something that a minority of them do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corned Beef Posted June 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 I've worn Scotland tops in England aswell, but in my oppinion flying a "needless" flag out the window of my car in a rival country is one step to far and is asking for trouble. You would call a Celtic fan "stupid" for flying an Ireland flag through a Rangers area in Glasgow. Obviously thats not the best of comparisons, comparing this with those sectarian arseholes! Nonsense, are we going to start puting advice in tourist brochures and websites that anyone coming up from England needs to remove any identification that might show them to be English? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baiggers Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Aye but over the years the genuine England fans have been tarred with the same brush as the folk looking for a fight. So why is it an outrage that the number of attacks on England fans allegedly by Scotsmen are said to besmirch the good name of the tartan army, when we are only happy to slag off the entire England support for something that a minority of them do? Aye but these England fans causing trouble quite clearly travel (or at least want to) abroad following their national team, of that there is no doubt. Whether the people involved in these incidents follow Scotland abroad is clearly very questionable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corned Beef Posted June 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 I get what you mean but it was still a minority of fans travelling with England, yet the entire England support suffered. Why, if certain elements of the Scottish support (see for example the attack on an English fan in Germany) get up to no good, should it be any different for the Tartan Army? We are only too happy to say 'we are better behaved than the England supporters' but a fair majority of England fans wouldnt dream of causing trouble. So why should we be shocked and appalled that certain people are getting stuck in to whats happened, we would be doing exactly the same if it was the other way round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baiggers Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 I get what you mean but it was still a minority of fans travelling with England, yet the entire England support suffered. Why, if certain elements of the Scottish support (see for example the attack on an English fan in Germany) get up to no good, should it be any different for the Tartan Army? We are only too happy to say 'we are better behaved than the England supporters' but a fair majority of England fans wouldnt dream of causing trouble. So why should we be shocked and appalled that certain people are getting stuck in to whats happened, we would be doing exactly the same if it was the other way round. I don't think anyone is arguing rights or wrongs here, just a bit of annoyance that it was said to have reflected on the Tartan Army. If they say Scots etc then I'm afraid that yes we have to accept it but when they say members of the Tartan Army (people who follow the Scottish national football team home and away) then they are quite simply barking up the wrong tree. If there is bother with Scotland fans abroad then obviously the criticism will be there for dishing out to us, however, there currently is no basis for their to be any association. Let's not forget the fact that despite England having a much higher population, Scotland have taken numbers such as 13,000 to Belgium, 10,000 to Italy, 8,000 to Amsterdam which are not in proportion to both our populations. If we can take these numbers without this minority creeping in then why can't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mainstand Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 "I ran after him to ask why he hit Hugo. He then unzipped his jacket and was touching the crest of his Rangers shirt," the father said. "I couldn't believe this was happening." I think they'll get this boy he must stand out like a sore thumb, a Rangers fan that dislikes ENGERLAND I was actually doen in London on Wednesday on business and was amazed at the amount of England world cup stuff, every single shop had it in their window. There were taxis the lot going about with England flags flying(boy lost business as there was no way I waas getting into his CAB). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Too much to catch up on but a few points... 1. Spot on Ronnie. You interpreted what I said 100% 2. Publicity seeker Ann Begg has a lot to answer for. 3. The fuss that has been stirred up is as pathetic at the attacks themselves. There is a hidden anti Scottish agenda here im sure. 4. We dont live in a fluffy little ideal world so it really is better to show a bit of common sense and not risk upsetting the locals. Like it or not flying those stupid little flags isnt the most sensible thing to do when north of the border. Im in England and I thought of wearing a T&T top to the pub to watch the England game but then thought better of it. 5. Agree about the Asian comment and its not a BNP statement, its a fact. 6. This government has created the most vile atmosphere that if you happen to look at someone the wrong way your a racist. The word is overused and the true meaning diluted. 7. When a Scotsman took an English company to court for racial discrimination, it was ruled that the Scots and the English were the same race and could not therefore discriminate against each other. These attacks are therefore not legally racists. And finally...... Could someone please show me the evidence that the attackers were actually Scottish? There is a lot of jumping to to conclusions from the peices I have read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Nonsense, are we going to start puting advice in tourist brochures and websites that anyone coming up from England needs to remove any identification that might show them to be English? I didn't say remove all identification. I just felt the flag was over the top and a tad arrogant. Sort of a "were in the finals and your not". Every country has its nutters, so these sort of things should be expected when people step over the line! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corned Beef Posted June 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Just heard from a mate that the father of the wee boy who got attacked was on the radio this morning, saying it was a guy in a Scotland top not a Rangers top. Don't know what to make of it now to be honest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 I get what you mean but it was still a minority of fans travelling with England, yet the entire England support suffered. Can I bring up the words perspective and proportion again. We have to talk in generalisations here. The Tartan Army or Scotland support have a very good record abroad and this has been recognised by footballing authorities in every country in addition to football's world governing body FIFA. On the other hand England fans have a long record of violance everywhere some of which I will summarise - World Cup France1998 France - Police fire tear gas to control fights involving English and Tunisian fans, and local Arab youths in Marseille. There are 49 arrests, including 27 English fans, with 30 people injured. . 1997 Italy - Violence flares on terraces at Italy versus England World Cup qualifier in Rome. England fans blame heavy handed Italian police. 1995 Ireland - Friendly international between Republic of Ireland and England in Dublin abandoned after 27 minutes when England fans riot. Sweden 1992 - Violence and destruction by English hooligans in Malmo and Stockholm at the European championship finals raises doubts within Uefa about whether England should host the next tournament in 1996. German fans also riot during the tournament. 1970's/80's English fans riot on regular basis, led by the legendary "superhooligan" armies, such as Chelsea's "Headhunters" and West Ham's "Inter City Firm". England 1986 - Five stabbed in a riot between 150 followers of Everton, Manchester United and West Ham on a cross-channel ferry, which is wrecked and forced to return to England. Belgium 1985 - A total of 39 fans killed, 32 of them Italian, at Heysel Stadium, Brussels during rioting before Liverpool - Juventus European Cup final iniated by the Liverpool fans. England banned from European competition. 39 football fans died in the tragedy, 32 Italian fans of Juventus FC, 4 Belgians, 2 French and an Irishman.Rocco Acerra (29) Bruno Balli (50) Alfons Bos Giancarlo Bruschera - 21 Andrea Casula - 11 Giovanni Casula - 44 Nino Cerrullo - 24 Willy Chielens Giuseppina Conti - 17 Dirk Daenecky Dionisio Fabbro - 51 Jaques François Eugenio Gagliano - 35 Francesco Galli - 25 Giancarlo Gonnelli 20 Alberto Guarini - 21 Giovacchino Landini - 50 Roberto Lorentini - 31 Barbara Lusci - 58 Franco Martelli - 46 Loris Messore - 28 Gianni Mastrolaco - 20 Sergio Bastino Mazzino - 38 Luciano Rocco Papaluca - 38 Luigi Pidone 31 Bento Pistolato - 50 Patrick Radcliffe Domenico Ragazzi - 44 Antonio Ragnanese - 29 Claude Robert Mario Ronchi - 43 Domenico Russo - 28 Tarcisio Salvi - 49 Gianfranco Sarto 47 Amedeo Giuseppe Spalaore - 55 Mario Spanu - 41 Tarcisio Venturin - 23 Jean Michel Walla Claudio Zavaroni - 28 France 1984 - England fans cause £700,000 damage in Paris after 2-0 defeat by France. Belgium 1984 - Tottenham supporter shot dead in Brussels and 200 fans held by police following riot before UEFA Cup Final against Anderlecht before which 116 locals had been hospitalised iafter various violant incidents. ---------------------------------------- I therefore think Tony Blair was a bit too quick to attack these incidents in Scotland in isolation and subsequently blame the whole Scotland fan base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corned Beef Posted June 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 Oh i agree a section of the England support behaved terribly for many years but it was still a minority. My point is that if a minority of Scotland fans behave badly, then i don't think we have any right to complain if the entire support gets tarred with the same brush when we have been doing it to England for years. Regardless of how well behaved we have been in the past. Thats just my opinion though. Just a wee question, is the Tartan Army just a section of the Scotland support or do we class the entire Scotland support as the Tartan Army? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 Oh i agree a section of the England support behaved terribly for many years but it was still a minority. That's an epidemic not something small. Some of these Italian supporters spent their last living breaths at a game where they probably had looked forward to for weeks - a great highlight in their lives was to be the end of their lives. My point is that if a minority of Scotland fans behave badly, Occasionally but not on that scale, in fact I can't think of any off hand except the fans of a team who sing 'God Save The Queen' in Villareal but not 30 years of it. I can't think of any serious Scotland/Tartan Army incidents in relation to the period I mentioned ofthe English fans above. Just a wee question, is the Tartan Army just a section of the Scotland support or do we class the entire Scotland support as the Tartan Army? In the 1970's the whole Scotland support were called the Tartan Army. That included the 160000 plus who visited London in 1977, 65000 of whcich got into Wembley. Later things became formalised and an organisation called the Tartan Army was created although the term came from an Andy Cameron back in the 70's. There still Scotland supporters who are not affiliated with any Tartan Army branch but attend games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corned Beef Posted June 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 Ah i see, i never quite understood if the Tartan Army was a seperate supporter group or the nickname for the entire support or both? I can see where you are coming from Ronaldo, what i am trying to get across here is that if a minority of fans cause bother, the majority suffer. We are talking different scales of bother of course but unless we take action on these thugs who carry out attacks in the name of Scotland, we are going to really end up getting a reputation 'down south'. By virtue of our excellent reputation of fans representation at international football games, incidents like these will always stick out like sore thumbs. I felt a wee bit sorry for Bliar as the question he got from Anne Begg wasnt very well worded and sounded more awkward than it should have been. So he ended up looking like he hated the tartan army as a result when i don't think that was the case. He was just awkwardly responding to a daft question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 That's an epidemic not something small. Some of these Italian supporters spent their last living breaths at a game where they probably had looked forward to for weeks - a great highlight in their lives was to be the end of their lives. Occasionally but not on that scale, in fact I can't think of any off hand except the fans of a team who sing 'God Save The Queen' in Villareal but not 30 years of it. I can't think of any serious Scotland/Tartan Army incidents in relation to the period I mentioned ofthe English fans above. In the 1970's the whole Scotland support were generally referred to in an informal way as the Tartan Army. That included the 160000 plus who visited London in 1977, 65000 of whcich got into Wembley. Later things became formalised in order to allow the fans to administer all events surrounding travelling and attending matches and so the organisation called the Tartan Army was created although the term came from an Andy Cameron song back in the 70's. There are still Scotland supporters who are not affiliated with any Tartan Army branch but attend games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Wallace Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 There is absolutely no excuse for the attacks that took place. End of. I sincerely hope that those responsible are caught and severely punished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 By virtue of our excellent reputation of fans representation at international football games, incidents like these will always stick out like sore thumbs. I felt a wee bit sorry for Bliar as the question he got from Anne Begg wasnt very well worded and sounded more awkward than it should have been. So he ended up looking like he hated the tartan army as a result when i don't think that was the case. He was just awkwardly responding to a daft question. I totally agree with that. QT is one of these events where policy is not so much discussed but repetitive slogans and the occasional media induced questions. That was my point. The incidents were disgusting and should be punished and dealt with locally but when it reaches Prime Minister's Question Time it has been escalated way out of proportion. Nobody on this thread has said anything other than these were disgusting acts. However how do we know It wont result in revenge attacks and then of course further reprisals back the way and so on. You did say incidents like these stick in people's minds. There were seven murders in London last week, should they not have had priority if violant incidents are a major part of Question Time? I could set up a thread recording serious criminal acts that occur in the UK every day and you'll not hear many discussed in the Houses of Parliament, crime is normally talked about in generalities there. We all know why it reached this level. These crimes were as serious and depressing as many others occuring daily in an increasingly violant UK and made even worse by attacking the vulnerable. Should they get the 'Electric Chair' or should they get 'Life Imprisonment'?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mainstand Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 Just heard from a mate that the father of the wee boy who got attacked was on the radio this morning, saying it was a guy in a Scotland top not a Rangers top. Don't know what to make of it now to be honest That is only one of the differences taht is coming out of this story. BBC TV last night: Wee boy says that he was playing football when the man hit him. BBCTV website: says he was walking through the park with his family. BBCTV last night: the wee boy says he thinks that the man must have hit him due to his England strip. Later on there was a story saying that the man spoke to him about why he had an england strip on then hit him, in addition to which there was a story taht his dad got beaten up but his face looked okay last night on he tV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 just to say england arrests at world cup gone up to 134! not bad considering the police intelligence stopped 3800 hooligans from going! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 just to say england arrests at world cup gone up to 134! not bad considering the police intelligence stopped 3800 hooligans from going! last night another 110 arrests includin 3 wummin for racist chantin and fightin the gerry polis. wonder what tony blair will make of that, just on bbc site 257 arrest all together! 18 polis injured Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 Just watched the news where they showed a group of English neds singing some yobo song about 'German Bombers' right next to a group of Germans - everyone seemed to be drinking beer out of 8 pint plastic jugs - it's a wonder theres not been more trouble. Seems to me that the media are desperate for full scale rioting to break out - which may happen when Engerland get beat - there doesn't seem to be any segregation in the stadiums. As for Hugo and his pater getting 'beat-up' in Edinburgh - something not ringing true about this story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cagey Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 I wonder if Ann Begg will ask a question about that in PMQ`s next week or will Blair blame it on the tartan army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 I wonder if Ann Begg will ask a question about that in PMQ`s next week or will Blair blame it on the tartan army. There's going to be a hell of a lot of questions if football induced racist attacks are now the order of the day at PMQ's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Posted June 26, 2006 Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 there is an awful lot on this thread now, and as some one who is living in england quite alot now I would have to say that its great the a nation gets so enthusiastic about its team at a world cup. people criticise england for being arrogant but i would have to say i would prefer that and believing in a world cup win than going along expecting to get beaten everytime. if you expect to lose then you will lose. I would be interested to know what the relative numbers of incidents to population size is. england has more problems for a number of reason, but 1 of which is there are large numbers of people going from a population of 50million instead of 5, I would also say that it is more likly to flare up with larger numbers of supporters. 20fans start a fight it is easier to stop, rather than 200 fans. I am not condoning the english fans and there are major problems but the way i see it is like rangers-celtic, its when you get large number of people together that problems start as in many cases it is harder to stop. In my mind the SNP dont help this arguement, this whole nationalistic approach is very dangerous and whipping up a frenzy that you have to be scottish and england is evil stance will only pour petrol on the fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mainstand Posted June 26, 2006 Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 20fans start a fight it is easier to stop, rather than 200 fans. I am not condoning the english fans and there are major problems but the way i see it is like rangers-celtic, its when you get large number of people together that problems start as in many cases it is harder to stop. In my mind the SNP dont help this arguement, this whole nationalistic approach is very dangerous and whipping up a frenzy that you have to be scottish and england is evil stance will only pour petrol on the fire I think you'll find that other countries have as many fans at the world cup as england. Sweden had over 40k at a match, thye haven't had problems. The SNP IMO have nothing to do with it, I am in no way a fan of their policies or of the party but it makes my blood boil seeing England flags flying from a car running about in Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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