Honest Saints Fan Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Hello my favourite football fans. I'm currently half way through a presentation and written report, which involves primary research and I thought there was no one better to ask this question to than the people of We Are Perth. Could you please answer my poll and possible give me your reasons for your answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkfish Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Aside from the personal liberty issues which are outside the scope of your question, my opinion is that the Government has shown numerous times it is incapable of handling large scale IT projects or protecting personal data, so I think if they were put in charge of such a database there is a real danger details could full into the wrong hands. Plus I haven't seen any evidence that ID cards improve national security. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryhallsdanceband Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Firstly - Don't see how Biometrics and a National ID card would increase my happiness - unless that is by my feeling safer. Would they make Britain a safer place. Possibly marginally but not sufficient enough to merit the cost and risk associated with having the information on databases. Where would the risk to me as an individual be reduced - the guys who bombed London underground would all have ID cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryhallsdanceband Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Aside from the personal liberty issues which are outside the scope of your question, my opinion is that the Government has shown numerous times it is incapable of handling large scale IT projects or protecting personal data, so I think if they were put in charge of such a database there is a real danger details could full into the wrong hands. Plus I haven't seen any evidence that ID cards improve national security. On the data security front - I am confident that this is not nearly as much of a risk as it was a few years ago - I can say this as I am paid to know this sort of stuff. The risk of data security being compromised is pretty much no longer associated with the IT - security testing of Government IT systems these days being very thorough. The risk now is more associated with the people who have access to data misusing that data. The risk is smaller but it is still there and on balance I don't really see there being sufficient benefit - even given the much reduced level of risk; and yes - there is also the civil liberties side of things that would be associated with having to carry an ID card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myDarlingBeefeater Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Invasive, pointless, unaffordable. The thin end of the wedge. As has been mentioned the database might be held under the best possible security but those with access are the problem. The Revenue and Customs blunder of a few years ago - where 25 million records were lost on unencrypted CDs, in the post - illustrates the poor data management practices found in many public bodies. Especially those who outsource. Especially those who outsource to other jurisdictions. What is it for? Catching criminals? Stopping terrorists? Issuing benefits? There is no evidence that a scheme such as this would improve any of these efforts. What happens if your data is stolen, corrupted or wrong? What if your identity is stolen using the perpetrator's biometrics? "The database is never wrong!" How could this be addressed? Far too many issues plaguing a would-be solution for an undefined problem. And don't get me started on Blair's other IT project NPfIT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueJ Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Waste of money and might actually make Britain less safe given that such as criminals and terrorists can basically forge what they want. It would also be a case of Britain's, the most watched free society, being monitored even more by Government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueJ Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 And don't get me started on Blair's other IT project NPfIT! Bankers get jailed for losing £1.5 billion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryhallsdanceband Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 As has been mentioned the database might be held under the best possible security but those with access are the problem. The Revenue and Customs blunder of a few years ago - where 25 million records were lost on unencrypted CDs, in the post OK - just on this point of data management and transfer in respect of the 'HMRC blunder of a few years ago', I KNOW this will not happen (again) as a result of weaknesses (always people btw) in the data handling processes as a new system has been put in place to avoid precisely just this sort of incident. The risk is not around the IT - the risk is as you say around the people who have access to the data. But that then is no different from the situation that has existed for the last 100 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Goran Stanic Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 Disagree. Too costly to implement, how can that be justified given the current state of the country. Therefore people will be unhappy with such a poor use of limited resources. Risk of identity fraud is increased. This will lead to unsafe and unhappy people. Why is it necessary for the govt to hold all of that information on everybody? Seems far too invasive and quite scary tbh, people knowing a whole host of information that they shouldn't need to. Was the whole thing not tony blair's response to terrorism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myDarlingBeefeater Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 OK - just on this point of data management and transfer in respect of the 'HMRC blunder of a few years ago', I KNOW this will not happen (again) as a result of weaknesses (always people btw) in the data handling processes as a new system has been put in place to avoid precisely just this sort of incident. The risk is not around the IT - the risk is as you say around the people who have access to the data. But that then is no different from the situation that has existed for the last 100 years. True, although nobody had the ability to obtain so much data and distribute so easily 100 years ago! It could be argued that any system/ process that sets permissions for a low level user to download such a vast amount of data unchecked was an IT weakness. Principle of least privilege and all that. Hopefully that's the fix you're alluding to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryhallsdanceband Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 OK - just on this point of data management and transfer in respect of the 'HMRC blunder of a few years ago', I KNOW this will not happen (again) as a result of weaknesses (always people btw) in the data handling processes as a new system has been put in place to avoid precisely just this sort of incident. The risk is not around the IT - the risk is as you say around the people who have access to the data. But that then is no different from the situation that has existed for the last 100 years. Secure Electronic Transfer http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/set/about.htm Means that data does not NEED to be downloaded so such privileges no longer exist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myDarlingBeefeater Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 Secure Electronic Transfer http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/set/about.htm Means that data does not NEED to be downloaded so such privileges no longer exist SET looks like a system for end users whereas the blunder was a bulk transfer to an other government department. Hopefully the NAO et al use it too. I'm sure you'll let me know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babychunder Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 As a law-abiding citizen with nothing to hide, I don't mind the biometrics and ID cards PROVIDED that there are sensible controls over who gets to look at the data. As a (bad!) example, look at the list of geezers who can look at your DVLC records. Vehicle manufacturers Solicitors Housing associations Banks Finance companies Private individuals Vehicle repair workshops Petrol Stations Insurance companies and loss adjusters Private investigators British embassies and consulates Other UK and crown dependent registration authorities Motor Insurance Bureau Legal aid agencies Court appointed bailiffs and debt recovery agencies Car park enforcement companies Local authorities and their agents NHS Trusts Bodies with a statutory enforcement role Other government departments and agencies I would definitely not be in favour of insurance companies, banks etc. being able to access my biometric data, especially if it has DNA as this might be analysed and used to load up my premiums if I had some pre-disposition to some nasty disease or other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANDY5565 Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 who shall pay for this? is it wise to do it now. it does not stop fraud it creates fraud. its useful: you get dealt with quicker can hold valuable info on 1s health are reasons why i would accept it. its harmful: anybody almost might know who you are and where you are. conclusion best way to keep a secret is not have 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Patterson Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 This tune says it all http://youtu.be/vUoQKHxXqiM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryhallsdanceband Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 SET looks like a system for end users whereas the blunder was a bulk transfer to an other government department. Hopefully the NAO et al use it too. I'm sure you'll let me know yes - the system is used by government departments, banks etc to securely transfer data to and from each other. It's not really aimed at being a 'you and I' facility as we don't have the same requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myDarlingBeefeater Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 As a law-abiding citizen with nothing to hide, I don't mind the biometrics and ID cards PROVIDED that there are sensible controls over who gets to look at the data. As a (bad!) example, look at the list of geezers who can look at your DVLC records. Vehicle manufacturers Solicitors Housing associations Banks Finance companies Private individuals Vehicle repair workshops Petrol Stations Insurance companies and loss adjusters Private investigators British embassies and consulates Other UK and crown dependent registration authorities Motor Insurance Bureau Legal aid agencies Court appointed bailiffs and debt recovery agencies Car park enforcement companies Local authorities and their agents NHS Trusts Bodies with a statutory enforcement role Other government departments and agencies I would definitely not be in favour of insurance companies, banks etc. being able to access my biometric data, especially if it has DNA as this might be analysed and used to load up my premiums if I had some pre-disposition to some nasty disease or other. Exactly! This is the kind of function creep that would happen. Pretty much anyone can apply to obtain DVLA data at the moment. Just think of all the organisations that would be lobbying for access to a super-database. The notion of nothing to hide, nothing to fear is bogus and I always find it incredible that so many people are willing to swallow it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wish i was Joe McGurn Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 It will come down to money, you pay enough you will get to see how much information you want on who you want. Computers are fine as they don't suffer from greed, humans do. Anyone who can access the information will be liable to be payed off. Trust a policeman ?? Look how many of them get caught up in looking up information for illegal means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck_saint Posted October 27, 2011 Report Share Posted October 27, 2011 As an IT freelancer for the last 20 years i hope i can add a little. Talented professionals will always go where the money is, and i dont know a single person who has ever taken a .gov job unless theyve been on their uppers . Gov projects currently cannot hope to match the rates paid by the likes of blue chips banks and financials, where an individual can easily get a 4 figure daily rate. The result is .gov projects end up with the bottom feeder bad coders/consultants/architects and projects become madly over budget and are usually badly conceived/built/implemented, ultimately they end up having to get professionals to sort it, just so the politicians dont get sacked!!!! The immense buying power of UKGov should be ensure they get the best possible deal, but short term thinking of getting things on the cheap(oh ....and intense lobbying) always condemns these large projects to failure. As HenryHallDanceBand said the weakness is the people not the systems, unfortunately the people in question are the civil servants who buy the systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mapleleaf Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 (edited) This thread is creeping me out a little. As a life-long government disliker, I am a bit surprised that there seems to be no real protest. That's not a criticism, just an observation. As a Scot, I feel the whigmaleeries running up my back at the thought of the amount of survailance(sic) that seems to go on in Britain. As a Canadian living next to the elephant to the south I shudder at the amount of governmental prying that goes on down there. I want the government to GTF out of my life as much as possible. More oversight doesn't make me feel safer, but less and less so. Some one else noted, law-abiding=no sweat. I can't agree. I'll leave it at that. I feel a rant coming on, and that's not what was asked for! Smudge P.S. Where has the anarchy gone, Andy? Edited October 28, 2011 by mapleleaf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovesred Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Governments and corporations around the world have more information about us than at any time in human history, but we're not significantly safer (or, I suspect, happier) than we were in the past. If anything, the more the state knows about me, the less safe and less happy I feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mapleleaf Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Thumbs up, Grovesred. Smudge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANDY5565 Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 This thread is creeping me out a little. As a life-long government disliker, I am a bit surprised that there seems to be no real protest. That's not a criticism, just an observation. As a Scot, I feel the whigmaleeries running up my back at the thought of the amount of survailance(sic) that seems to go on in Britain. As a Canadian living next to the elephant to the south I shudder at the amount of governmental prying that goes on down there. I want the government to GTF out of my life as much as possible. More oversight doesn't make me feel safer, but less and less so. Some one else noted, law-abiding=no sweat. I can't agree. I'll leave it at that. I feel a rant coming on, and that's not what was asked for! Smudge P.S. Where has the anarchy gone, Andy?[/Q is still alive and kicking...me for my part i am the anti system. always have been and always will be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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