Billy Stark?

[Ronaldo]

Did Billy Stark manage Saints during a period of transition from large income to low income with huge restrictions on finance due to

- relegation;

- inheritance of a playing staff on long term massively expensive contracts (some 3 years);

- a large percentage of injury prone diddy Sandy Clark signings (Graeme Jones, Craig Russell, etc.);

- inadequate parachute payment from the SPL to cope with that situation

Is he really a vastly underrated manager or did he get found out at SJFC?

[Saintkev]

Is he really a vastly underrated manager or did he get found out at SJFC?

I think he has found his level, he was obviously not good with the money side of things.

[Hazel1884]

I think he has found his level, he was obviously not good with the money side of things.

I don't agree with that at all - i think Billy IS a very good manager. He inherited a squad, and whilst things worked out well with some good signings i think he just lost the faith of the fans (myself included!) and possibly a few players before leaving.

We, as fans, had high expectations of that period due to just being relegated and desperate to get up - i think he had higher expectations than what Owen Coyle's had so far. Although, this season could change that due to the 'success' of the cup runs so far and the catch up game we played.

Also, i guess you could argue if Stark, or Connolly for that matter, had as much of a backing from the club in terms of the finance that Coyle has available to him now they could have had a longer stint at Saints.

I wish Stark all the best with Queens Park - he seems to be making a real go of things down there, doing the same thing Coyle did with saints regarding the 'feel good factor' around the club and having spoke to ex-Saintee Mark Ferry on a night out a while back he couldn't talk highly enough of everything going on down there.

[Ronaldo]

Many Saints fans I've spoken to also believe that he turned Paul Hartley from a fairly ineffective right midfield player for us to a quality more central midfield player who became suddenly marketable and his career took off.

[Saintkev]

Geoff has always opened the purse strings if he was sure it was a reasonable investment... and why did folk lose faith with him... he was taking us backwards.

Now at Queens Park, they are fairly successful as he does not have the issues of spending money... although Queens fans I know (and there's a few)reckon they are still quite dull to watch, just more successful.

[SlickDT]

Have to admit although I did think it was time for Stark to go when he did, I think he's a cracking coach (if what his players have to say is true) and with the right number 2, would make a successful manager.

Have to agree with the point made about Hartley.

He was at Saints during a major cutting back period, and think he brought in some class players considering the budget.

[THE REBEL SAINT]

billy starks one of the best coachs in scotland !!!

[MUZZ]

had he stayed another year, he wouldve got us back to the spl IMO

[Guest Nairn Saint]

had he stayed another year, he wouldve got us back to the spl IMO

100% agree with Muzz. Shame he didn't get long enough to complete his job here.

[Benjo]

Time is obviously a great healer. Billy Stark was absolutely honking as Saints manager. He never looked as if he was going to get us promoted. How many of his signings have went onto bigger and better things? Vata, Hay, Reilly, McLaughlin, Donnelly? He even made Paddy captain. If Stark was still here we would no doubt finish in the top 3 this season (at least 32 points behind the champions) and would have 38yo Regi Blinker, 41yo Enrico Annoni and 35yo Vidar Riseth strutting their stuff.

As for Hartley, he was up against it when we were in the SPL because we were rubbish. When we went down his performances demonstrated that he was playing at a level below himself (a la Jason Scotland). Saying that, I never expected to see him in a Scotland shirt/Champions League tie.

This Billy Stark thread is embarrassing.

[blueheaven]

billy starks one of the best coachs in scotland !!!

Based on what, exactly?

Let's not be silly here. Billy Stark is absolute guff-pipes. He is one of the worst managers we have ever had. He should have been sacked on the day we were relegated at Motherwell, but instead we had to put up with years more of his awful football and awful signings, based on - from what I can see - little more than the fact that he was a nice enough bloke who got on well with the directors.

As for this old chestnut that always gets rolled out about him transforming Paul Hartley - I have just two words to say to that, and they are "so" and "what". Stark's job wasn't to improve one player at the expense of the whole team. Hartley's one good season for Saints came at a time when the rest of the team was getting thumped every week - if Stark was such a great coach and manager, he maybe should have tried to turn round the performances of more than one solitary player. Besides, Hartley was pretty poor in the First Division most weeks once we'd gone down.

If Stark was any good he wouldn't have spent the last few years rotting at Queens Park.

[MUZZ]

Based on what, exactly?

Let's not be silly here. Billy Stark is absolute guff-pipes. He is one of the worst managers we have ever had. He should have been sacked on the day we were relegated at Motherwell, but instead we had to put up with years more of his awful football and awful signings, based on - from what I can see - little more than the fact that he was a nice enough bloke who got on well with the directors.

As for this old chestnut that always gets rolled out about him transforming Paul Hartley - I have just two words to say to that, and they are "so" and "what". Stark's job wasn't to improve one player at the expense of the whole team. Hartley's one good season for Saints came at a time when the rest of the team was getting thumped every week - if Stark was such a great coach and manager, he maybe should have tried to turn round the performances of more than one solitary player. Besides, Hartley was pretty poor in the First Division most weeks once we'd gone down.

If Stark was any good he wouldn't have spent the last few years rotting at Queens Park.

i respect your opinion gary, but you cant judge a guy on one job and to be fair he's taken a step back down and done a very good job at that level. don't be surprised to see him jump up to this division if a job comes up soon. and he would deserve it based on only his queens park record

[jazzer]

I gave up on the guy when we got overrun at Ross County for 90mins and he didn't even use one sub.

[lethamsaintee]

Stark was on the periphery of promotion with Saints i feel, and given another year may well achieved that goal.

Whichever way you look at it, his departure was a mistake, at that time, given that we were on a downer soon after.

[blueheaven]

i respect your opinion gary, but you cant judge a guy on one job and to be fair he's taken a step back down and done a very good job at that level. don't be surprised to see him jump up to this division if a job comes up soon. and he would deserve it based on only his queens park record

I judge him on his entire career, not one job - he'd done nothing to merit being given an SPL manager's job in the first place. It was a huge mistake by Saints and we paid the price - he did an awful job here, and hasn't done anything spectacular with Queens Park either.

Stark was on the periphery of promotion with Saints i feel, and given another year may well achieved that goal.

Based on what? He was given plenty of opportunities to get us up, and never managed it - why would giving him yet more goes at it have made any difference? By the time he left the entire team was in complete disarray - most of our players were far too old, they were all being played out of position, the tactics were all over the place and his signings in general were a desperate, desperate joke.

Whichever way you look at it, his departure was a mistake, at that time, given that we were on a downer soon after.

I don't follow the logic there at all. The "downer" you talk about had started long before Stark's departure. The way I look at it, the only thing that was a mistake about his departure was that it took so long to happen. How does what happened after he left show whether or not it was a mistake to get rid of him? It's one thing to argue that we made a mistake in appointing Connolly as his successor, but the appointment of Connolly and the sacking or Stark are two completely different issues. I would argue that no manager (within Saints reach) would have been able to put together a decent team for Saints in the immediate aftermath of Stark's departure. He left us us total disarray, with practically no players signed up for the next season, and Connolly had to put together practically an entire squad using a tiny budget in just one summer.

Stark used to come out to the media and talk utter nonsense. I also listened to him talking utter nonsense to the fans at various supporters/sponsors events on more than one occasion. When we were playing badly (which was pretty regularly) the only response he ever made was to either make baffling changes which made things even worse, or make no changes at all and simply stand there staring blankly into space with his arms folded. I'll always remember when we played Motherwell at home in the Scottish Cup, and they played us off the park in the first half, yet Terry Butcher came out after the game and said he'd given his players a bollocking at half-time for not producing as much as they were capable of, and Stark came out and said he'd told his players they were "doing alright" (or words to that effect). And if the fans demanded more he whinged about our unrealistic expectation levels. And let's not forget the time that after actually building up a decent run, he decided to completely tear apart the winning combination for our most important game of the season at Falkirk, making bizarre decisions like playing John Robertson on the left wing. Sandy Clark was like Alex Ferguson in comparison to him. Stark was rubbish.

[Benjo]

Whichever way you look at it, his departure was a mistake

That is one of the most ridiculous things that I have ever read.

[Guest Nairn Saint]

How's does his record compare to Owen Coyle? Has Owen Coyle achieved significantly more to date?

[Benjo]

I dont know the difference stats wise, but two semi finals and coming within minutes of winning the first division is miles better than Stark ever produced. OC has been better in the transfer market bringing in players like Hardie, Mensing, James and Scotland rather than Reilly, Vata and Bernard.

[blueheaven]

I dont know the difference stats wise, but two semi finals and coming within minutes of winning the first division is miles better than Stark ever produced. OC has been better in the transfer market bringing in players like Hardie, Mensing, James and Scotland rather than Reilly, Vata and Bernard.

Exactly. I don't think OC is in any way criticism-proof, and there will soon come a time that he's going to have to actually get us promoted or it will be time for someone else to have a go - but Coyle is doing better than Stark ever did, after taking over in what I would consider to be more difficult circumstances. I would also point out that he's still young and it's his first ever manager's job, which dictates that he gets a bit more time and patience to learn what he's doing and make mistakes. When Stark arrived here, by contrast, he already had a proven track record of failure as a manager and coach, and he certainly wasn't what you'd call a young 'un.

One thing I will never, ever understand is how the normally fairly-sensible St Johnstone board ever managed to make such a huge error as to appoint Stark as manager in the first place.

P.S. I've moved this thread to Saints Chat, because it's clearly a heavily Saints-related discussion.

[SlickDT]

Hartley was pretty poor in the First Division most weeks once we'd gone down.

Having read through your posts Blueheaven I have to agree that the majority of it is well-thought out and quite right, apart from the statement above. Thought he was a stand-out the whole way through his Saints career.

I remember getting REALLY frustrated st Stark one game for staying with his arms crossed and head down (think it was away to Hibs with Roy in goal, horrible day!). I suppose shouting, etc wasn't his style. I think though he'll go on to do quite well with a bigger club and wouldn't be at all suprised to see him back in the SPL one day.

[blueheaven]

Having read through your posts Blueheaven I have to agree that the majority of it is well-thought out and quite right, apart from the statement above. Thought he was a stand-out the whole way through his Saints career.

I've never understood why so many Saints fans seem to think back so fondly on Hartley. In his first season here he didn't really get a sniff of first team football, and we did alright that year (i.e., we were in the SPL, and we stayed there). Once Stark turned up Hartley suddenly became our key player and I'll agree that he was superb that season... but we finished bottom of the league by miles, so his performances really didn't achieve much for us. In the First Division he scored a few spectacular goals which I think got a lot of people on-side, but generally speaking he wandered around the pitch looking completely disinterested. I think his attitude once we got relegated was fairly representative of why we came nowhere near going straight back up - Hartley, despite having spent most of his previous career either sitting on benches or playing in the lower leagues, suddenly seemed to think he was above it all. He's proven himself to be a terrific player since leaving Saints, but he certainly wasn't producing football like that for Saints in the First Division, and personally I was delighted to see the back of him.

I remember getting REALLY frustrated st Stark one game for staying with his arms crossed and head down (think it was away to Hibs with Roy in goal, horrible day!). I suppose shouting, etc wasn't his style. I think though he'll go on to do quite well with a bigger club and wouldn't be at all suprised to see him back in the SPL one day.

In that case I'll ask you what I've asked everyone else who's said similarly positive things about him - what are you basing it on? The only positive thing I can think of to say about Billy Stark, is that at least he's not Tommy Burns.

[blueheaven]

- relegation;

- inheritance of a playing staff on long term massively expensive contracts (some 3 years);

- a large percentage of injury prone diddy Sandy Clark signings (Graeme Jones, Craig Russell, etc.);

- inadequate parachute payment from the SPL to cope with that situation

I would also just respond to these particular points by saying that, by the time Stark finally left, it was very much his own team that was failing - how good or bad the team were that he inherited from Clark had nothing to do with it. I would also point out there was at least one very good player still here when Stark took over (i.e. Nick Dasovic), but Stark chose to freeze him out in favour of inferior players, and then bring in guff like Mark Reilly and Paul Bernard as replacements. Sandy Clark's abilities (or lack of them) as a manager are another debate entirely, but one thing's for certain: it's not Sandy Clark's fault that Billy Stark is rubbish.

It astonishes me that people on here talk about Stark with higher regard than Clark. Is that really based on football reasons, or is it purely because Stark left with more dignity? Clark has seen considerably more success as a manager.

[StDuncM]

Three great responses BH except to add that I thought the muppet Clark ruined the progress made by Sturrock and the moronic Stark was a disgrace.

Radford, who loved them both, like I loved Lord John Connolly of Muirton, will no doubt disagree.

[Oldmuirton]

Owen Coyle is a good manager but has yet to prove he is a great manager. But I am absolutely convinced that if he had the resources that were available to Billy Stark at the time of our relegation, we would have gone straight back up.

In my view the only good thing you can say about Stark is that he was a nice chap.

[blueheaven]

Three great responses BH except to add that I thought the muppet Clark ruined the progress made by Sturrock and the moronic Stark was a disgrace.

In the end, Clark undid the good work done by Sturrock, and he also undid a lot of the good work that I think had been done by himself. I definitely agreed that it was time for him to go when he did - but I think it's unfair to ignore the positives and only mention the negatives surrounding his time here. Yes, he did poorly in the end, but why not also point out that he actually initially improved on a lot of Sturrock's groundwork by turning Sturrock's players into a better team, getting us into Europe and also keeping us in ini the top 5 on the following season (despite having considerably less money to spend than a lot of other SPL clubs during that period). In my opinion, Saints fans always seem very keen to pick and choose the bits they remember about Sandy Clark. People like to deny it now, but there was a time when he was doing an excellent job and was very, very popular here.